Guest Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 4 hours ago, RondónEFC said: Farage The thing is the facts can be manipulated. I've got mild asthma. If I were to die of covid it will say I had underlying issues. Lots of people have some kind of underlying issue. The facts are the people who died of covid wouldn't have died without it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,644 Posted January 20, 2022 Subscriber Share Posted January 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Gunnersauraus said: The thing is the facts can be manipulated. I've got mild asthma. If I were to die of covid it will say I had underlying issues. Lots of people have some kind of underlying issue. The facts are the people who died of covid wouldn't have died without it Exactly. My Dad is in his 60s and has diabetes. He's otherwise fit and healthy and probably has another 20 years in him. If Covid had got him it would have been "underlying health conditions". I couldn't care less what Farage has to say and what his latest grift is as he attempts to claw back a sliver of relevance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 1 minute ago, RondónEFC said: Exactly. My Dad is in his 60s and has diabetes. He's otherwise fit and healthy and probably has another 20 years in him. If Covid had got him it would have been "underlying health conditions". I couldn't care less what Farage has to say and what his latest grift is as he attempts to claw back a sliver of relevance. Someone explained it very clearly once. If someone has brittle bone disorder and you punch them in the head and they die you still get prosecuted for murder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Blue 1,898 Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 @Tommylives with is head in the sand like the rest of you, the vaccines are doing you more harm than good, you are destroying your immune system for a mild virus at best 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,644 Posted January 21, 2022 Subscriber Share Posted January 21, 2022 Vaccines haven't done me or anyone I know any harm. Haven't come down with any more colds or flu than usual or suffered any side effects. No heart problems, hair loss, nobody I know has had their willy fall off. To be fair they might not have told me if they had. The benefits are pretty good though, a highly vaccinated population allowing for us to live our normal lives, freely see family and friends, play football, watch football with full stadiums again, keep schools open so I can do my job normally again, all without risking overwhelmed hospitals and loads of people dying. More harm than good though yeah. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,367 Posted January 21, 2022 Administrator Share Posted January 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Happy Blue said: @Tommylives with is head in the sand like the rest of you, the vaccines are doing you more harm than good, you are destroying your immune system for a mild virus at best Happy to take my chances. Vaccines may have done you more harm than good and that's fine. Doesn't mean it's the same for everyone but the figures and facts (i.e. general evidence) show vaccines have prevented serious harm or death on a worldwide scale . 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFCMike 3,009 Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 Happy Blue is a lost cause. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylander 166 Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 I saw the chap that cuts my hair last week. Said he had been rough and down at ER twice recently because of his heart. He is mid 20's and supports West Ham. He has had 2 jabs and now wont't have the third as is convinced he has reacted to that vaccine. The hospital would not comment on the vaccine, he was not anti-vax before. Now lets recall this was an experimental vaccine under brand name MRNA, it may be sometime before we know if these chaps reacting are the canaries in the coal mines or just unlucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 5 minutes ago, Waylander said: I saw the chap that cuts my hair last week. Said he had been rough and down at ER twice recently because of his heart. He is mid 20's and supports West Ham. He has had 2 jabs and now wont't have the third as is convinced he has reacted to that vaccine. The hospital would not comment on the vaccine, he was not anti-vax before. Now lets recall this was an experimental vaccine under brand name MRNA, it may be sometime before we know if these chaps reacting are the canaries in the coal mines or just unlucky. So basically someone who knows nothing about science has said he has had heart problems and doesn't want a booster. Covid could have caused his heart problem. Stress could have caused it. Peoples streets levels are much higher at the moment. All medication is slightly experimental. Loads of research goes into vaccines before they are even tested. Then they get rested on around ten thousand people first. You really haven't made any point there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylander 166 Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 11 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said: So basically someone who knows nothing about science has said he has had heart problems and doesn't want a booster. Covid could have caused his heart problem. Stress could have caused it. Peoples streets levels are much higher at the moment. All medication is slightly experimental. Loads of research goes into vaccines before they are even tested. Then they get rested on around ten thousand people first. You really haven't made any point there I think I have made a point, in that vaccines are not safe for everyone. I would certainly trust this chap having known him for a couple of years. He is not alternative with health either first time he has ever questioned health. I used to get angina they would not even give me a test, eventually found things that would stop it. Even longer term by seeing an osteopath got a back and rib cage injury fixed and didn't suffer with that any longer. I remember going on a health lecture by one of Britain's best allergy doctors who said any new technology that shows promise won't come on to the market for 50 years. I have heard from Labour supporters a few years back that health and universities were getting funding from private businesses. I would question whether there is now interference on what can be studied and what can be tested and what cannot be tested.. For me it is all about the money however they wrap it up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,644 Posted January 21, 2022 Subscriber Share Posted January 21, 2022 There's a lot more evidence of Long Covid causing people long term health complications than the vaccines. Vastly more. What strikes me is how these mad people can simultaneously hold anti-vaccine and anti-lockdown positions. If you were actually successful in convincing people en masse not to take the vaccine, the health service would be getting hammered by a lot more seriously ill Covid patients and we probably would have had to increase the amount of restrictions through the winter again, and the same people that caused it by endorsing the anti-vax movement, would have been cry-arsing the loudest about the loss of their freedoms. Vaccine take up along with a milder variant has us in sight of the other side of this thing (touch wood). If you don't want to have it and want to selectively pedal "I heard this, that and the other" scare stories then by all means, crack on. But if the rest of us had all refused the vaccines like the nutty minority, we'd still be in a cycle of locking down every few months to shield the NHS, the waiting lists for cancer care and just about every other treatment would be stacking up even further, our kids would continue to see their education and childhood ripped to shreds. Etc. Etc. I believe it is a personal choice to take the vaccine. Nobody should have it forced upon them, even healthcare workers, and hopefully as the pandemic recedes, the pressure to get vaccinated goes with it to some extent. But there is no vaccine debate anymore. They have done us a lot more good than they've done us harm. This is now a fact, not an opinion, and we shouldn't be scared to say it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 18 minutes ago, Waylander said: I think I have made a point, in that vaccines are not safe for everyone. I would certainly trust this chap having known him for a couple of years. He is not alternative with health either first time he has ever questioned health. I used to get angina they would not even give me a test, eventually found things that would stop it. Even longer term by seeing an osteopath got a back and rib cage injury fixed and didn't suffer with that any longer. I remember going on a health lecture by one of Britain's best allergy doctors who said any new technology that shows promise won't come on to the market for 50 years. I have heard from Labour supporters a few years back that health and universities were getting funding from private businesses. I would question whether there is now interference on what can be studied and what can be tested and what cannot be tested.. For me it is all about the money however they wrap it up. No one said vaccines are safe for everyone. But even people with heart problems are more at risk from covid than a vaccine. There are lots of independent tests. If there was an obvious issue with vaccine safety it would be spotted by an expert not people with no science background. In fact it has been proven time and time again that anti vaxers dont know what they are talking about. Sure there are scandles but vaccines are as safe as other things you don't question before using. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 23 minutes ago, RondónEFC said: There's a lot more evidence of Long Covid causing people long term health complications than the vaccines. Vastly more. What strikes me is how these mad people can simultaneously hold anti-vaccine and anti-lockdown positions. If you were actually successful in convincing people en masse not to take the vaccine, the health service would be getting hammered by a lot more seriously ill Covid patients and we probably would have had to increase the amount of restrictions through the winter again, and the same people that caused it by endorsing the anti-vax movement, would have been cry-arsing the loudest about the loss of their freedoms. Vaccine take up along with a milder variant has us in sight of the other side of this thing (touch wood). If you don't want to have it and want to selectively pedal "I heard this, that and the other" scare stories then by all means, crack on. But if the rest of us had all refused the vaccines like the nutty minority, we'd still be in a cycle of locking down every few months to shield the NHS, the waiting lists for cancer care and just about every other treatment would be stacking up even further, our kids would continue to see their education and childhood ripped to shreds. Etc. Etc. I believe it is a personal choice to take the vaccine. Nobody should have it forced upon them, even healthcare workers, and hopefully as the pandemic recedes, the pressure to get vaccinated goes with it to some extent. But there is no vaccine debate anymore. They have done us a lot more good than they've done us harm. This is now a fact, not an opinion, and we shouldn't be scared to say it. Yes it is a fact. And this the problem. A few people think there opinion is worth as much as an expert or that they haven't covered issues they have thought of. It's ridiculously arrogant when you think about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ 15,325 Posted January 21, 2022 Author Subscriber Share Posted January 21, 2022 Association between myocarditis and COVID vaccines is actually quite well established in science already, only the estimated incidence rates vary - sometimes quite widely - from study to study. It might be a low risk, but it's still a risk, especially in young men, and it absolutely should be taken seriously, and such findings should influence public health policies. For example, in numerous studies, the risk of myocarditis in men under 40 after vaccination with Moderna was estimated to be higher than their risk of myocarditis from COVID infection, so it's pretty obvious that for this demographic, Moderna is not the best choice of vaccine and shouldn't be used (and several countries already banned it for under 40s for this specific reason). Similarly, those who experienced heart issues after mRNA vaccination, should be offered a different kind of vaccine (virus vector, protein subunit, etc) for their booster as a precaution instead of dismissing their concerns. Honestly, I find both extremes equally annoying - those who actively advocate against vaccines and encourage people not to take it, and those who vehemently defend it and refuse to consider the shortcomings and potential dangers of it. It's clearly helpful in preventing severe course of disease and deaths, and it also clearly has shortcomings (lack of protection against infection and transmissibility, for example) and potentially serious negative side effects for certain people (myocarditis with mRNA vaccines for young men, CVT & VITT with viral vector vaccines for young women). Research is still ongoing and will be for years, there will likely be new findings and arguments for and against, so to me, it's an extremely weird hill to die on. Just a few days ago, there was an editorial in BJM (British Journal of Medicine) calling all vaccine manufacturers to make their data freely available publicly for independent analysis - which is definitely a very reasonable thing to ask, given that the data is supposed to be behind major public health interventions, and yet it is still not accesible for researchers, doctors and the general public. Well worth a read: https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o102 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, nudge said: Association between myocarditis and COVID vaccines is actually quite well established in science already, only the estimated incidence rates vary - sometimes quite widely - from study to study. It might be a low risk, but it's still a risk, especially in young men, and it absolutely should be taken seriously, and such findings should influence public health policies. For example, in numerous studies, the risk of myocarditis in men under 40 after vaccination with Moderna was estimated to be higher than their risk of myocarditis from COVID infection, so it's pretty obvious that for this demographic, Moderna is not the best choice of vaccine and shouldn't be used (and several countries already banned it for under 40s for this specific reason). Similarly, those who experienced heart issues after mRNA vaccination, should be offered a different kind of vaccine (virus vector, protein subunit, etc) for their booster as a precaution instead of dismissing their concerns. Honestly, I find both extremes equally annoying - those who actively advocate against vaccines and encourage people not to take it, and those who vehemently defend it and refuse to consider the shortcomings and potential dangers of it. It's clearly helpful in preventing severe course of disease and deaths, and it also clearly has shortcomings (lack of protection against infection and transmissibility, for example) and potentially serious negative side effects for certain people (myocarditis with mRNA vaccines for young men, CVT & VITT with viral vector vaccines for young women). Research is still ongoing and will be for years, there will likely be new findings and arguments for and against, so to me, it's an extremely weird hill to die on. Just a few days ago, there was an editorial in BJM (British Journal of Medicine) calling all vaccine manufacturers to make their data freely available publicly for independent analysis - which is definitely a very reasonable thing to ask, given that the data is supposed to be behind major public health interventions, and yet it is still not accesible for researchers, doctors and the general public. Well worth a read: https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o102 I'm not aware of many people who have said you should take it even if it's more likely to harm you. I'm sure there are some but not many. Most have admitted there are risks whith just that they are small and a lot of the time less risky than not taking it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,644 Posted January 21, 2022 Subscriber Share Posted January 21, 2022 I don't want to come across like a vaccine zealot, and I don't deny the risks they pose to some people. I'm just not having the false equivalence we keep seeing, 'more harm than good', baseless suggestions that any high profile person having a health problem or 'friend of a friend' anecdote is 'the vaccine strikes again' or any of that tripe. It actually prevents you from having a good faith discussion about the health risks if some people can't just stick to using real, tangible evidence instead of speculating on random incidents to make it seem like it supports their agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Artful Dodger 1,831 Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 Vaccines are great. Lockdowns are not. That's what should be railed against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFC 1,497 Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Waylander said: I saw the chap that cuts my hair last week. Said he had been rough and down at ER twice recently because of his heart. He is mid 20's and supports West Ham. He has had 2 jabs and now wont't have the third as is convinced he has reacted to that vaccine. The hospital would not comment on the vaccine, he was not anti-vax before. Now lets recall this was an experimental vaccine under brand name MRNA, it may be sometime before we know if these chaps reacting are the canaries in the coal mines or just unlucky. Any pics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waylander 166 Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 This is the follow up on the BBC worker from Newcastle that had the fatal brain injury following one of the vaccines, they say at the court hearing it was acknowledged the vaccine had done the damage. under 2 mins, https://odysee.com/@Adverse:c/video6242097200747251081:e 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Blue 1,898 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 17k actual deaths from covid, mostly over 80yrs of age, an extra 50k deaths of cancer! Edited January 27, 2022 by Happy Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Tommy 12,608 Posted January 27, 2022 Moderator Share Posted January 27, 2022 4 hours ago, Happy Blue said: 17k actual deaths from covid, mostly over 80yrs of age, an extra 50k deaths of cancer! Quote A popular misconception throughout the pandemic has been that deaths have been overreported. In January 2022, Campbell posted a Youtube video in which he cited figures from the UK's Office of National Statistics (ONS) saying they showed deaths caused by COVID "may be way lower than anyone had thought" and concentrated on a figure of 17,371 death certificates where only COVID-19 was given as a cause of death. A spokesman from the ONS clarified that death certificates mentioning COVID-19 anywhere meant that COVID-19 was a causal factor in the death. The official figure for COVID-related deaths in the UK for the period was over 175,000. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Campbell_(YouTuber) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Blue 1,898 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Tommy said: Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Campbell_(YouTuber) You can't dispute the 17k deaths, its from the freedom of information act, these are the official figures. the numbers you quoted are people who have had a serious illnesses then contracted covid and its finished them off like a flu or any other virus would in that state Edited January 27, 2022 by Happy Blue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,367 Posted January 27, 2022 Administrator Share Posted January 27, 2022 Ahhh @Tommy, sorry mate. The very-well-respected, never-wrong and reliable @Happy Blue said you can't dispute the 17k deaths, so please stop what you're doing right now! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFCMike 3,009 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 I'm not sure what point people are trying to make with this information to be honest. A lot of the 130-odd thousand would still be alive if not for Covid. Underlying health condition doesn't mean they were already seriously ill. It's absolutely nuts that we've got to a point where we have people being happy to write off others who might have otherwise lived another 10, 20, 30 years. Without the lockdown early in the pandemic and the vaccines now the figures would be much higher. Deaths from other diseases increasing so much (if that's the case, the figures provided in that video are a guess by some former WHO doctor) are an unfortunate effect of an under funded health service. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Blue 1,898 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Stan said: Ahhh @Tommy, sorry mate. The very-well-respected, never-wrong and reliable @Happy Blue said you can't dispute the 17k deaths, so please stop what you're doing right now! Give your head a wobble mate ..you can't argue with these facts without looking more stupid/gullible/navie etc etc Edited January 27, 2022 by Happy Blue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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