Chelsea Discussion

[True Blue]

1 minute ago, Bluewolf said:

Everyone I talk too has a positive outlook regarding the team currently and it has made a difference around the ground for sure but we need to remember that this youthful team has been forced on the club rather than it being natural development through the ranks, It's a cosy fit for both Club and Lampard at the moment who probably has no illusions about his position but in the long term it's anybody's guess what might happen, once the transfer ban ends will they stick with Lampard or will they try and get someone with more experience in the summer if the club don't achieve it's targets?? What then happens with the youth if they do bring someone else in?? will they go diving back in the market for more experienced players and will the youth once again be pushed to one side??   

It's possible that this season will be a one off or if you like a vision of what could be for the future of the club.. Chelsea are not known for their patience though are they

Yeah thought the same, also this crop of players have been around forever. I don't expect us to promote a young player to the first team every season it just won't happen. However if they are good enough and they are very good why not keep them even after we change the manager. With summer signings our team should see a few changes, but also expectations will go sky high. No one expects us to do much this season, however the club has high standards and they will sooner rather than later expect us to win silverware again. Lampard is an intelligent man and he knows how we deal with things he is fully aware of it all i am sure.

[carefreeluke]

1 hour ago, Danny said:

Would you really expect this side to be anything other than sloppy in defence? Kurt Zouma was playing for Everton last season, Tomori has just come up from the Championship/academy...from what I've seen of Chelsea your best CB is Rudiger and he's played 1 game this season? Injured? And then Kante has been out injured as well...and then you've got about 6 players all around 21-22 and below?

I don't buy into the media frenzy surrounding Lampard, he could still flop as we've not seen what he can do with a transfer budget behind him but it seems the expectations that this team need to stop being sloppy are a bit high

 

The last game against Ajax was a prime example of our defensive problems. Looking at the goals conceded, both Azpilicueta and Alonso give away needless free-kicks, Ajax go on to score two from two set-pieces. Alonso's and Azpilicueta's individual mistakes lead to the free kicks, Abraham fails to clear one, Kepa should have done better with the other although it was a bit of a freak goal. Two goals full of individual mistakes and that involve set pieces. Another Ajax goal due to Azpilicueta not stepping up, a poor individual mistake. The other we concede against the run of play when we're chasing the game which normally wouldn't happen.

Defensively set pieces are still a big problem for us but also poor individual mistakes are costing us rather than anything systematically or collectively. Our shape in transition is a lot better but we seem to struggle with concentration and individual mistakes. The season so far is full of examples. We concede two against Man United, Rashford scores a one in a million goal from a set-piece, Alonso gives away a very sloppy foul in the box to give them a penalty.

Zouma had a poor start to the season but has improved massively over the last month or so, Tomori has been solid and reliable since coming in. I wouldn't put it down to them two. If you're looking at anyone individually in defence it would be Azpilicueta and Alonso. Azpi started the season poorly, has had 3-4 games recently where he's looked class, then he went and performed like that defensively against Ajax on Tuesday night. Alonso is Alonso.

At the start of the season, we struggled defensively as a team in transition and our shape was all over the place defensively as a team that for the last month or so has been sorted out.

Edited November 7, 2019 by carefreeluke

[RandoEFC+]

1 hour ago, Danny said:

Kurt Zouma was playing for Everton last season

Excuse me. We had the best defence in the league aside from Liverpool and City for the second half of last season, when we had a stable back four. Over the course of the whole season, only the top four conceded fewer goals than us, and we had the 4th most clean sheets in the season (14) behind Liverpool, City and Chelsea. I know all you hear about Everton is that Pickford is shite, Keane is shite, Mina is a flop, Zouma is erratic and a liability and Marco Silva can't organise a defence, but sometimes you should look at the actual facts.

I know I'm biting over nothing, but lazy stereotypes that are conclusively contradicted by actual facts get my goat.

[Cicero]

Defensive errors this season actually have little to do with either Zouma or Tomori. 

[Danny]

55 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Excuse me. We had the best defence in the league aside from Liverpool and City for the second half of last season, when we had a stable back four. Over the course of the whole season, only the top four conceded fewer goals than us, and we had the 4th most clean sheets in the season (14) behind Liverpool, City and Chelsea. I know all you hear about Everton is that Pickford is shite, Keane is shite, Mina is a flop, Zouma is erratic and a liability and Marco Silva can't organise a defence, but sometimes you should look at the actual facts.

I know I'm biting over nothing, but lazy stereotypes that are conclusively contradicted by actual facts get my goat.

You've really bitten onto that one  Not that I was fishing, my point was that Chelsea are expected to be a top 4 club and you are not...so Chelsea conceding more goals than they technically should with a player who was playing for a club that finished 8th last season alongside an academy prospect is no surprise. The expectations are also high at Chelsea, win every game, win silverware every season (even if they're lower this season compared to normal)...again Zouma was playing for a side with lower expectations.

Tbh mate Everton have given the neutral a lot to laugh at the last couple of years with your transfer policy but I wasn't actually saying you were shit this time around...also I rate Mina and don't think Pickford is shit at all.

[Danny]

2 hours ago, True Blue said:

Think we will tighten the defense as time goes by and players get used to each other. We've played 18 games in all competitions this season, managed not to concede three times. Scored 42 goals and conceded 23 goals. If we can maintain to score a lot and concede less than that we should be okay. However with all the players back we should look more solid defending.

Yeah completely agree, as a defensive unit you can only get better.

2 hours ago, Bluewolf said:

I think that it was obvious from pre-season that we would be struggling in defence so no it's not a surprise, I said back then and still believe now that it will be down to how many we can score that will determine results for us, failure to be clinical in the final third in games and we are going to struggle simply because we lack focus in defence and always concede so it's about outscoring the opposition which we do well on most occasions... 'Media Frenzy' is probably a strong way of putting it when you talk about Lampard, sure he gets a lot of attention but then so does Klopp and Guardiola for what they do and given it's Lampards first big test and he is putting out youngsters it shouldn't really be a surprise should it?? 

Long term nobody knows what's in store for him or how he goes about business in the transfer market once we get back in there and I am fairly sure things won't be rosy all the time for him either, I personally don't expect us to get much further in the CL for example as the Ajax game just shows our shortcomings against good attacking sides but it's a learning curve this season, If he did well and then they decided to give him a longer contract he could follow down the path of Solskjaer and have it all go down the toilet really quickly but who knows??? he could continue to perform at a reasonable level but since when has performing at a reasonable level ever secured a managers job at Chelsea??? 

I don't think you'll go far in the Champions League (least not without Rudiger and Kante, though @Cicero rates Kovacic's work so far) but Ajax tore a lot of teams apart last season, their passing is really phenomenal and they've got a group of players that will soon be picked apart. They seem to just attack the ball as a pack and pick their angles perfectly.

1 hour ago, carefreeluke said:

The last game against Ajax was a prime example of our defensive problems. Looking at the goals conceded, both Azpilicueta and Alonso give away needless free-kicks, Ajax go on to score two from two set-pieces. Alonso's and Azpilicueta's individual mistakes lead to the free kicks, Abraham fails to clear one, Kepa should have done better with the other although it was a bit of a freak goal. Two goals full of individual mistakes and that involve set pieces. Another Ajax goal due to Azpilicueta not stepping up, a poor individual mistake. The other we concede against the run of play when we're chasing the game which normally wouldn't happen.

Defensively set pieces are still a big problem for us but also poor individual mistakes are costing us rather than anything systematically or collectively. Our shape in transition is a lot better but we seem to struggle with concentration and individual mistakes. The season so far is full of examples. We concede two against Man United, Rashford scores a one in a million goal from a set-piece, Alonso gives away a very sloppy foul in the box to give them a penalty.

Zouma had a poor start to the season but has improved massively over the last month or so, Tomori has been solid and reliable since coming in. I wouldn't put it down to them two. If you're looking at anyone individually in defence it would be Azpilicueta and Alonso. Azpi started the season poorly, has had 3-4 games recently where he's looked class, then he went and performed like that defensively against Ajax on Tuesday night. Alonso is Alonso.

At the start of the season, we struggled defensively as a team in transition and our shape was all over the place defensively as a team that for the last month or so has been sorted out.

Didn't mean to pin the blame on them, was just angling at the lack of experience your squad has in general. Azpi is a strange one, was one of the best right backs in the league but now seems to have completely lost that. I'm not keen on his captaincy from what I've seen, feel like he completely bottled the Kepa and Barkley situations

[Cicero]

10 minutes ago, Danny said:

You've really bitten onto that one  Not that I was fishing, my point was that Chelsea are expected to be a top 4 club and you are not...so Chelsea conceding more goals than they technically should with a player who was playing for a club that finished 8th last season alongside an academy prospect is no surprise. The expectations are also high at Chelsea, win every game, win silverware every season (even if they're lower this season compared to normal)...again Zouma was playing for a side with lower expectations.

Tbh mate Everton have given the neutral a lot to laugh at the last couple of years with your transfer policy but I wasn't actually saying you were shit this time around...also I rate Mina and don't think Pickford is shit at all.

Fairly certain many expected us to not finish top 4 this season. 

[Danny]

Just now, Cicero said:

Fairly certain many expected us to not finish top 4 this season. 

Alluded to that in the post m8

[RandoEFC+]

15 minutes ago, Danny said:

You've really bitten onto that one  Not that I was fishing, my point was that Chelsea are expected to be a top 4 club and you are not...so Chelsea conceding more goals than they technically should with a player who was playing for a club that finished 8th last season alongside an academy prospect is no surprise. The expectations are also high at Chelsea, win every game, win silverware every season (even if they're lower this season compared to normal)...again Zouma was playing for a side with lower expectations.

Tbh mate Everton have given the neutral a lot to laugh at the last couple of years with your transfer policy but I wasn't actually saying you were shit this time around...also I rate Mina and don't think Pickford is shit at all.

It's not a 'real' bite. There's loads of reasons to make valid criticisms at us over the past couple of years which is why it confuses me and causes me to intervene when people talk about our defending under Marco Silva, and when people call Pickford overrated etc. Our defensive record was actually good over the course of last season and it annoys me in general when people (not necessarily you) clearly form their opinion based on ill-informed media narrative because they just believe what thickos like Merson make up on the spot on Soccer Saturday, when the facts tell a totally different story. It was poor for the first couple of months and has been poor so far this season but the huge expanse of time in between where we were one of the most solid sides in the league just gets ignored incorrectly. Therefore I step in and point this out when people allude to our defence being some sort of laughing stock which they quite often do.

Anyway the point is that Zouma is a good player. But fans are like this all the time. Most of our fans were like "ugh he got relegated with Stoke last season why are we signing him". Just got to look a bit deeper sometimes.

[Cicero]

Centre backs I genuinely think we are set on. Even for next summer. 

The goals we concede is a system issue. 

[Danny]

3 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

It's not a 'real' bite. There's loads of reasons to make valid criticisms at us over the past couple of years which is why it confuses me and causes me to intervene when people talk about our defending under Marco Silva, and when people call Pickford overrated etc. Our defensive record was actually good over the course of last season and it annoys me in general when people (not necessarily you) clearly form their opinion based on ill-informed media narrative because they just believe what thickos like Merson make up on the spot on Soccer Saturday, when the facts tell a totally different story. It was poor for the first couple of months and has been poor so far this season but the huge expanse of time in between where we were one of the most solid sides in the league just gets ignored incorrectly. Therefore I step in and point this out when people allude to our defence being some sort of laughing stock which they quite often do.

Anyway the point is that Zouma is a good player. But fans are like this all the time. Most of our fans were like "ugh he got relegated with Stoke last season why are we signing him". Just got to look a bit deeper sometimes.

I agree with you regarding television mate, we went through a period where a couple of seasons ago where something stupid happened like once we would concede a goal we'd go on to lose points and done it in about 5-10 matches...we then didn't do it at all for something like another ten matches and then after that we played QPR, took the lead and then dropped points in the final minutes. Sky went on one for ages about how many times we'd done it that season and had an in depth discussion about how big a problem it was....except it was the first time it happened in about 2 months and very rarely happened again after.

I'm sure Zouma is a good player but there's a difference between playing for Everton and Chelsea and that's all I was alluding to as part of a greater point about experience... 

[RandoEFC+]

Just now, Danny said:

I agree with you regarding television mate, we went through a period where a couple of seasons ago where something stupid happened like once we would concede a goal we'd go on to lose points and done it in about 5-10 matches...we then didn't do it at all for something like another ten matches and then after that we played QPR, took the lead and then dropped points in the final minutes. Sky went on one for ages about how many times we'd done it that season and had an in depth discussion about how big a problem it was....except it was the first time it happened in about 2 months and very rarely happened again after.

I'm sure Zouma is a good player but there's a difference between playing for Everton and Chelsea and that's all I was alluding to as part of a greater point about experience... 

No doubt about that. Starting against the likes of Valencia and Ajax is a big step up from keeping clean sheets against the likes of Huddersfield, Fulham and Man Utd.

[Danny]

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

No doubt about that. Starting against the likes of Valencia and Ajax is a big step up from keeping clean sheets against the likes of Huddersfield, Fulham and Man Utd.

Remember when you'd mention Man Utd as a difficult team to play? 

[Cicero]

Abraham, Mount, CHO, Tomori and Barkley all called up for qualifiers. 

[Stan]

8 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Abraham, Mount, CHO, Tomori and Barkley all called up for qualifiers. 

All deserved, as well. Especially Abraham.

[LFCMadLad]

48 minutes ago, Stan said:

All deserved, as well. Especially Abraham.

Barkley? Kinell. What has he done to deserve playing for England?

Edited November 7, 2019 by LFCMadLad

[The Liquidator]

Wow so many theory's to what is causing the sloppiness and high (for Chelsea) conseding.

The back four all season are playing on their own. They get very little help from the two pretty boys playing infront of them, who's main aim it seems is to pass as many times to each other over two yards to keep their totals up. The sloppiness comes from the defenders and petty boys passing to players further forward on the pitch, often when under pressure, forcing and the ball runs off to the opposition. The manager has admitted this, yet, up too now does not want to\ or is unable to change. Like many of todays coaches Frank is hell bent on playing out from the back. As many other players in world football are finding out, its fucking difficult when they are being pressured quickly. Tomori misplaces the ball at least once a game. Zouma is a wholehearted defender who looks more uncomfortable than he really is on the ball. The two full backs do not get any help from infront of them and both rely on the center halfs behind them. For me this is more of a question of personnel over system, none of them are Ashley Cole.

Last season around this time, teams sat one player on our center midfielder, who promptly disappeared from games. We had David Luiz to take over ball carrying duties once that happened. It's coming again.

This all boils down to Frank. It really pisses me off when after the game he tells us what we can all see, yet does nothing about it. Its not difficult to fix and we already have players who would make us more solid.

Ajax first half was a lesson few have given us in a long time. It was laughable how their midfield walked passed ours forcing our defenders to give away free kicks that lead to goals. The climax of that game has over shadowed the truth.

One must not complain too much. I much prefer this season over the past couple. The penny will drop with Frank. He is a very intelligent boy in the God sent position of having the club and its fans fully behind him. Even the mongrels in the media are giving him a reach around in a honeymoon period which could last far longer than most Chelsea managers get. I'll be there Saturday, most interested what he does with the suspension we have suffered for this game?

 

[Stan]

9 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Barkley? Kinell. What has he done to deserve playing for England?

Obviously meant all of them apart from him

[Cicero]

The awkward moment when @The Liquidator puts all his trust onLampard when Lampard puts all his trust on Jorginho 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Cicero

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 hours ago, The Liquidator said:

 Even the mongrels in the media are giving him a reach around in a honeymoon period which could last far longer than most Chelsea managers get.

He's always been a media golden boy - I doubt they ever turn on him.

[carefreeluke]

 

[The Liquidator]

A pretty good performance against a side set up not to concede from the start. William was magnificent, huge body of work he got through, obviously taking Dave's armband to heart. I noticed the Matthew Harding end were starting to get at Tammy in the 2nd half, so I was well pleased when he slotted away the first goal and surprised when Frank took him off. Pulisic looks money well spent. Happy the manager singled him out for praise after the game and I hope his injury is as light as the club are making it out to be. While it is true we looked far more solid through the centre of the team, it helped that Palace did not attempt forward play other than between the two goals. Young Reece had a great game up against Zaha. On that performance its going to be interesting to see if he loses the place when they all come back from international duty.

Buzz around the ground flooded info on 10 days time. I have no idea if it's true, but reading online media this morning makes you think they have swallowed it Hook Line n Sinker. I, like many I spoke to yesterday, not sure what I want to happen.

The question you pose Luca07071 is one that has needed to be asked for sometime. My own opinion is we paid far too much. He does not look to be as safe as either of the two previous owners of his position.

This morning I watched BT coverage of the game and was tickled to watch Joe Cole destroy Sarri's season in charge. Wonderful examples of then n now and some priceless insider bombs of what went on.

[carefreeluke]

Willian was indeed magnificent yesterday, it's going to be interesting to see how he performs for the rest of the season as in my opinion history tell us he has the odd 1-2 months of good form, then his performances drop.

Regarding your comment about Abraham, Chelsea fans seem to have a special relationship or expectations with their strikers. It's, in my opinion, the most difficult position on the pitch but can come under the greatest scrutiny and the biggest groans of discontent you'll get at Stamford Bridge is if the striker is having a poor game, particularly in terms of hold up play. Even the most respected or successful strikers we've had over the years haven't been immune from criticism in this area. Ironically Torres' hold up play was one of the worst we've seen in recent times at the club but he was the most loved and the fans would turn against him a lot less.

While on the topic of Torres, he was absolutely adored by our fans, I still remember his first goal against West Ham and the celebrations were class, the atmosphere that day was brilliant in a London derby.  That was nearly ten years ago now, I swear the London derbies have lost their buzz over the years, I remember the hostile atmospheres when the likes of West Ham, Arsenal, Spurs used to come.

[The Liquidator]

I agree with you @carefreeluke like most clubs we have a special bond with our guys who lead the line. The point I was making is one hopes no negativity is placed on our young Tammy as he needs to be full of himself to keep performing at the level that helped find him a spot in the England squad. He has faults, but he is our chosen guy by Frank and we must praise over moaning at him when the ball skips away from him. Gees, just think of Jimmy trapping a ball to remember how bad it really can be

On Torres, I believe the reason he got such a easy time with the fans is because of the pain n hurt he inflicted on Liverpool fans through his decision to join us. I never wanted him, thankful for his goal against Barcelona and the way he carried himself during and since leaving the club. I understand he still owns a place less than half a mile from the ground.

I am not sure of your age, but when speaking of London Derbies of ten years ago I can assure you those derbies played in the 70's n 80's had a vibe which I very much doubt will ever be equaled again. You have to understand, it wasnt just the football on the pitch that was played out those days. Some of us lived for those games to represent our clubs in a far more challenging manor than the cosy "entertain us" brigade who fill our ground today.

[carefreeluke]

@The Liquidator

Yes mate, I imagine they were a lot better back in those days. My Dad has told me a fair bit on what they used to be like. I’ve sadly in my match going time though noticed a difference even in the last ten years.