American Politics Discussion

[Dr. Gonzo]

45 minutes ago, Spike said:

 

I get very depressed due to homesickness and these incidents only compound the stress

Yeah I definitely relate to that. My mood gets very up or down here depending on homesickness and I think a lot of shit has happened in the last 5 years living here that make it feel very different to my first few years in the country.

I dunno how people are supposed to have kids here and feel alright about it. Not just because of the incessant gun violence that the politicians refuse to do a fucking thing about - but that certainly plays a large part into my thinking there.

The breaking news now is that the Highland Park suspect had been planning this attack for months. I'm not sure it can just be put down to "mental health" as the reason behind the shooting - I think anyone committing mass murder is probably mentally ill, but I don't think he's mentally ill enough to be declared incompetent for trial... he was competent enough to pre-meditate mass murder - he's competent to stand trial.

[Spike]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah I definitely relate to that. My mood gets very up or down here depending on homesickness and I think a lot of shit has happened in the last 5 years living here that make it feel very different to my first few years in the country.

I dunno how people are supposed to have kids here and feel alright about it. Not just because of the incessant gun violence that the politicians refuse to do a fucking thing about - but that certainly plays a large part into my thinking there.

The breaking news now is that the Highland Park suspect had been planning this attack for months. I'm not sure it can just be put down to "mental health" as the reason behind the shooting - I think anyone committing mass murder is probably mentally ill, but I don't think he's mentally ill enough to be declared incompetent for trial... he was competent enough to pre-meditate mass murder - he's competent to stand trial.

I know how you feel, especially concerning having kids.

I think the mental illness angle is really only considered in cases that the perpetrator is so far removed from reality they cannot understand what, or the implications of what they’ve done. For instance serial killers are obviously maladjusted but interviews from people like Dahmer have proof they understood what they were doing was wrong, knew it was wrong, but didn’t have any sort of empathy towards it, creating a disconnect with what they know and how they feel.

[OrangeKhrush]

america will need a Abe type character to difuse hyper partisan identity politics.   Where people understand that there are other people that don't share similar world views but the solution is discourse and compromise.   

when politicians incite violence because they don't like a correct decision or because both aisles are kids in the playground instead of being representatives of the people, for the people by the people.

it is tragic to see this fall

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

america will need a Abe type character to difuse hyper partisan identity politics.

That's your example of a guy who diffused hyper partisan identity politics? The guy who was so feared by big believers in hyper partisan identity politics (in this case, denying people of a certain identity human rights and keeping them as chattel) started a civil war and then later was shot in the head by those same hyperpartisan dickheads after he'd won the war? 

I'm pretty sure just because of the way half the fucking country responded to his election, he's probably the most divisive president in the history of the US. The way the US responded after his assassination and the way the confederacy aristocrats were rehabilitated and happily welcomed back into their positions of status and power in that period of "reconstruction" are probably the biggest reason US politics are a mix of idiotic hyperpartisanship and culture wars.

I think what America actually needs is someone who's an actual unifier. Look at FDR, he came to power because of the corruption and ineptitude of his predecessors leading to what was a total economic collapse. And even then... he was only really able to properly "unify" the US once it was pulled into WW2. But he ended up being one of the most popular presidents of all time because he challenged the status quo... and he was able to navigate the US through it's economic woes (although that's primarily because the US had the advantage of being the only industrialised western nation to not be war torn by the war).

There's no easy fix for Americas problems. It's either going to have to get a hell of a lot worse (total economic collapse, world war, something like that) or America's just going to fall apart due to the media and politicians creating a narrative that Americans shouldn't work together or like each other because of various idiotic political reasons and the culture wars they are pushing. But corporate media has found that pushing culture wars and hyperpartisanship is more profitable than having a fully functioning democracy, and until that changes... that's likely going to be America's future.

[Spike]

16 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

That's your example of a guy who diffused hyper partisan identity politics? The guy who was so feared by big believers in hyper partisan identity politics (in this case, denying people of a certain identity human rights and keeping them as chattel) started a civil war and then later was shot in the head by those same hyperpartisan dickheads after he'd won the war? 

I'm pretty sure just because of the way half the fucking country responded to his election, he's probably the most divisive president in the history of the US. The way the US responded after his assassination and the way the confederacy aristocrats were rehabilitated and happily welcomed back into their positions of status and power in that period of "reconstruction" are probably the biggest reason US politics are a mix of idiotic hyperpartisanship and culture wars.

I think what America actually needs is someone who's an actual unifier. Look at FDR, he came to power because of the corruption and ineptitude of his predecessors leading to what was a total economic collapse. And even then... he was only really able to properly "unify" the US once it was pulled into WW2. But he ended up being one of the most popular presidents of all time because he challenged the status quo... and he was able to navigate the US through it's economic woes (although that's primarily because the US had the advantage of being the only industrialised western nation to not be war torn by the war).

There's no easy fix for Americas problems. It's either going to have to get a hell of a lot worse (total economic collapse, world war, something like that) or America's just going to fall apart due to the media and politicians creating a narrative that Americans shouldn't work together or like each other because of various idiotic political reasons and the culture wars they are pushing. But corporate media has found that pushing culture wars and hyperpartisanship is more profitable than having a fully functioning democracy, and until that changes... that's likely going to be America's future.

It’s like saying Oliver Cromwell was good for bipartisan relations in Ireland and England.

[OrangeKhrush]

On 05/07/2022 at 21:52, Dr. Gonzo said:

That's your example of a guy who diffused hyper partisan identity politics? The guy who was so feared by big believers in hyper partisan identity politics (in this case, denying people of a certain identity human rights and keeping them as chattel) started a civil war and then later was shot in the head by those same hyperpartisan dickheads after he'd won the war? 

I'm pretty sure just because of the way half the fucking country responded to his election, he's probably the most divisive president in the history of the US. The way the US responded after his assassination and the way the confederacy aristocrats were rehabilitated and happily welcomed back into their positions of status and power in that period of "reconstruction" are probably the biggest reason US politics are a mix of idiotic hyperpartisanship and culture wars.

I think what America actually needs is someone who's an actual unifier. Look at FDR, he came to power because of the corruption and ineptitude of his predecessors leading to what was a total economic collapse. And even then... he was only really able to properly "unify" the US once it was pulled into WW2. But he ended up being one of the most popular presidents of all time because he challenged the status quo... and he was able to navigate the US through it's economic woes (although that's primarily because the US had the advantage of being the only industrialised western nation to not be war torn by the war).

There's no easy fix for Americas problems. It's either going to have to get a hell of a lot worse (total economic collapse, world war, something like that) or America's just going to fall apart due to the media and politicians creating a narrative that Americans shouldn't work together or like each other because of various idiotic political reasons and the culture wars they are pushing. But corporate media has found that pushing culture wars and hyperpartisanship is more profitable than having a fully functioning democracy, and until that changes... that's likely going to be America's future.

i think we are well on our way to war and America is on its way to civil war.   the only smart ones are China stockpiling massive reserves and storing them deep underground

[OrangeKhrush]

Robert crimo the red flags were out on this guy for a long time.   he has posted a snail trail of clues what he will do.  he raps about fucked up things and killing people to take power.   

the old adage of guns don't kill people, people kill people is true in law, he is a disturbed individual that was destined to murder.   when the cops apprehended him, he was trying to kill himself, they found 47 knives on him

the real solution is to tone down the hatred in the US and start to focus on which types commit these crimes, you don't see GarandThumb, Hiccok, Demolition ranch go around shooting people and they are gun enthusiasts.   

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

i think we are well on our way to war and America is on its way to civil war.   the only smart ones are China stockpiling massive reserves and storing them deep underground

So you think America needs someone so divisive it leads to civil war because it's inevitable?

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, OrangeKhrush said:

Robert crimo the red flags were out on this guy for a long time.   he has posted a snail trail of clues what he will do.  he raps about fucked up things and killing people to take power.   

the old adage of guns don't kill people, people kill people is true in law, he is a disturbed individual that was destined to murder.   when the cops apprehended him, he was trying to kill himself, they found 47 knives on him

the real solution is to tone down the hatred in the US and start to focus on which types commit these crimes, you don't see GarandThumb, Hiccok, Demolition ranch go around shooting people and they are gun enthusiasts.   

Someone with that many red flags shouldn't be able to purchase a gun legally like he did. The simple fact is there's not enough scrutiny behind who's allowed to buy guns and who isn't. There are other countries that have legal gun ownership - but they have substantially more rules on what disqualifies someone from owning a gun. The US is an outlier because there are almost 50% of the world's privately owned guns in the country... but with barely any regulation on firearms.

People like to say "it's because it's a constitutionally protected right" - but there are other constitutionally protected rights that have been whittled away at by courts and laws... so that's not a valid reason to not regulate guns. You now have to go to page 5 to find the Highland Park, Illinois shooting that happened just a few days ago in this link: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/number-of-gun-deaths - I think that in itself is appalling and shows how serious of a problem gun violence is in the US.

[OrangeKhrush]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Someone with that many red flags shouldn't be able to purchase a gun legally like he did. The simple fact is there's not enough scrutiny behind who's allowed to buy guns and who isn't. There are other countries that have legal gun ownership - but they have substantially more rules on what disqualifies someone from owning a gun. The US is an outlier because there are almost 50% of the world's privately owned guns in the country... but with barely any regulation on firearms.

People like to say "it's because it's a constitutionally protected right" - but there are other constitutionally protected rights that have been whittled away at by courts and laws... so that's not a valid reason to not regulate guns. You now have to go to page 5 to find the Highland Park, Illinois shooting that happened just a few days ago in this link: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/number-of-gun-deaths - I think that in itself is appalling and shows how serious of a problem gun violence is in the US.

1) Regulating gun laws is not a constitutional infringement,  you still have the right to bear so long as you are capable of owning a gun which involves competency evaluations.   i have said enough times that I don't see any problems with that.     

In contrast while there is no constitutional right to bear firearms in South Africa,   there is strong regulations on guns and competency tests but violent gun crimes escalate because the criminals get guns through illegal means,  thus the position that no guns equals no violence is not true.  Once you regulate something you facilitate illicit trade,  ie: heroine and cocaine. sex trafficking etc,  it is a double edged sword. 

Regulating who and how people can acquire guns is neither a violation of a right nor a bad thing given how unhinged America is.

2) no constitutional rights were removed by Laws or the Courts in the US,  for starters there was no right to that current thing,  secondly judicial review and judicial independence is a foundational value every western democracy ascribes to,  the doctrine of separation of powers is a foundational value that three organs of state exercise oversight to prevent abuse of powers. 

The other thing about Roe which was also brought up by the far left hero the late Ruth Bader Ginsburg that Roe was actually reviewable in that the Court usurped power of the legislature by creating law,  which violates the doctrine of separation of powers whereby the Court acted like the legislature and therefore was bad law.   By correcting this and giving powers to states and their democratically elected officials,  the "will of the people" ie: democracy is carried out in a more legal manner. 

Judicial review is absolute,  settled law is settled until it is not settled,  which is why as legal practitioners we don't rely on old precedent when new precedent supersedes it.  Law is organic and changes as the times do,  but there is no such thing as "settled law". 

3) if you want to see a situation where the government has usurped complete authoritarian power you can look at china and Russia that have "forever presidents" and silence dissenters,  Canada where your right to self defense which is a very old criminal law precedent that if a person threatens your life you may reciprocate in defense,  this is not unlimited ie: if a unarmed person attacks you and you shoot them that is likely to fall under excessive force and unjust defense, except if the unarmed attacker is a very big male and the defender is a woman for instance.   It is a proportional threshold test depending on the facts and circumstance.   The most high profile right to defend yourself case was the Rittenhouse case which was globally hailed as a pure application of a legal principal that has existed since Roman law. 

[OrangeKhrush]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

So you think America needs someone so divisive it leads to civil war because it's inevitable?

The opposite,  they need a leader who can unify people by restoring the traditional/cultural value of Americanism.    Someone who refuses to politic by pigeonholing people  but refers to Americans as a entire collective under one government based on the truest values of Constitutional democracy.    But it is academic as I think the decline is well down that slippery slop.    

[Waylander]

2 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The opposite,  they need a leader who can unify people by restoring the traditional/cultural value of Americanism.    Someone who refuses to politic by pigeonholing people  but refers to Americans as a entire collective under one government based on the truest values of Constitutional democracy.    But it is academic as I think the decline is well down that slippery slop.    

I also see more trouble ahead as due to polarising of attitudes and epxect a state verses Fed issue to bring it to boiling point. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

2) no constitutional rights were removed by Laws or the Courts in the US

I never said they were. But take a look at the 4th Amendment. There's clear text in the amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

And then there's how the courts have interpreted that to narrowly restrict what counts as a search or seizure necessitating a warrant.

If they can narrowly restrict privacy, they can narrowly restrict guns from entering the hands of absolute morons who shouldn't be allowed to own cars let alone guns.

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said:

The opposite,  they need a leader who can unify people by restoring the traditional/cultural value of Americanism.    Someone who refuses to politic by pigeonholing people  but refers to Americans as a entire collective under one government based on the truest values of Constitutional democracy.    But it is academic as I think the decline is well down that slippery slop.    

I'm not sure Lincoln's an example of a unifier or someone who restored traditional/cultural value - he's someone who had a good policy on slavery (ending it), but that flew in the face of norms and traditions of the US to the point that the country was literally divided in war.

I think examples like Lincoln or FDR are better alluding to how America needs someone who can correctly identify what traditions and values have been hurting their country for decades and find a way to get through the division and partisan bullshit the media pushes to make Americans realise that something needs to change for their country to stop sliding down the slope it's been on. And push the traditions and values that have held the test of time as American society has changed over the centuries and are the actual universal American values.

But the partisan divisions will be very difficult to heal when you've got the most watched news media outlets actively dividing the electorate and pushing half of them to radical positions. And some traditional universal American values are falling to the wayside in the political slide America's been on for the past 6 or so years.

[OrangeKhrush]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I never said they were. But take a look at the 4th Amendment. There's clear text in the amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

And then there's how the courts have interpreted that to narrowly restrict what counts as a search or seizure necessitating a warrant.

If they can narrowly restrict privacy, they can narrowly restrict guns from entering the hands of absolute morons who shouldn't be allowed to own cars let alone guns.

In the US, UK and even in South Africa this is a very generic clause in a bill of rights,   in our criminal law the police need a warrant unless it is  extreme risk of flight or further crime.  "reasonable suspicion" is a subjective standard implanted into a objective test.    What is odd about America is how Crimo aka Awaken the Rapper never gets searched despite a troubling online history and people complaining about him,  but the most harmless people often get searched.   What America needs is a re-evaluation on finding propensity to commit crime and also stop treating criminals like victims. 

[OrangeKhrush]

a false story where abortion was made the story but yet no criminal prosecution pressed.   after fox and Washington post investigated the nefarious nature of journalistic politicking came out.   of course Joe and kamaltoe tries to boost this to stop the bloodbath coming.

the monologue is amazing at how transfetishism is now actually impacting woman and reducing then to birthing persons.   

woman's rights are being limited by the cult of far left Nazism.

a good liberal blogger and the attacks on bisexuals by LGBTQ.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Isn't Jesse Waters just a comedian? Or is that Greg Gutfield? Either way, this whole fixation on trans stuff is something the media is pushing to both sides to get people to not actually focus on issues that impact everyone and just create a weirdly divisive culture war for politicians to harp on about rather than actually fix the issues that impact everyone.

In more positive news coming from the US, California is using it's $100b budget surplus to start producing it's own insulin so that the cost of insulin in California won't be tied to the cost of insulin in the US (which is absurdly high, as most pharmaceutical products in the US).

I hope they allow it to be sold to other states and not just Californians, although it should be at a slightly higher cost for people out of state since they don't pay California taxes. Even with a slightly higher cost for non-Californians, that would be a significant cost reduction for anyone who needs insulin in the entire country.

On the other hand, California's federal tax numbers show they put in more than any other state to the federal treasury than other states... and don't really get that much back from the federal government comparatively. And a lot of Californians are very resentful of having to subsidise other states that get back shitloads more money than they put in. So it could be a bad political move within California to allow it to be sold to other states. But it would be a good thing for national politics.

Because the high price of pharmaceutical drugs in the US is an issue that impacts most people. I don't think we're seeing the sort of leadership from the US federal government that does anything really helpful for Americans, so perhaps the states have to take matters into their own hands.

[Beelzebub]

Bring him back on twitter

[Dr. Gonzo]

14 hours ago, Aladdin said:

Bring him back on twitter

It's funny how angry he is Musk's not buying it and unbanning him 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I think a big issue in the US right now is police officers - it seems like in the wake of the George Floyd protests and after being called a bunch of bastards, many police officers have decided they aren't going to react properly in times of emergencies. Look at how the police reacted in that Ulvade shooting - hiding in a hallway like a bunch of cowards as that incel with his AR15 is literally shooting kids down the hallway. Thank fuck they removed the screaming children sound from the video... but I'll tell you what, seeing "the sounds of children screaming have been editted out of a video" is a pretty horrifying thing to see on a video.

Then there's this that's happened in San Diego: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/nbc-7-investigates-san-diego-police-face-scrutiny-over-womans-murder/ar-AAZyqCv

Long story short, a woman's stalker got into her house. Police were on the scene for about 12 hours as her neighbors pleaded with them to do something. Eventually the stalker emerged from her house and notified the police that he'd killed her.

Apparently the US Supreme Court has held that police don't have a duty to protect Americans (Warren v. DC, DeShaney v. Winnebego County, Castle Rock v. Gonzalez)... and it really does beg the question, what the fuck are US police actually for? Traffic enforcement? Harassing minority communities? Is every American expected to be armed to the teeth to protect themselves since the cowardly police have no actual duty to do anything?

[Waylander]

Claims Pelosi has bought a she load of shares ahead of a bill she is supporting to put massive funding into that industry

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/nancy-pelosi-throws-her-support-behind-50-billion-semiconductor-bill-hours-after-disclosing

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Waylander said:

Claims Pelosi has bought a she load of shares ahead of a bill she is supporting to put massive funding into that industry

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/nancy-pelosi-throws-her-support-behind-50-billion-semiconductor-bill-hours-after-disclosing

Yeah they really need to change the rules about legislators in the US allowed to make investments.

It’s basically legalised insider trading for the people who make all the decisions.

[Viva la FCB+]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah they really need to change the rules about legislators in the US allowed to make investments.

It’s basically legalised insider trading for the people who make all the decisions.

The entire system is fucked when it comes to money in congresss. The insider trading is atrocious but its appalling accross the board. Campaign financing is disgusting politicians are opening bought by big corporations and even the spending of campaign funds is hilarious what they get away with. I saw a little while back MTG that fuckwad had in her funds pay for a luxury suv - I dont recall which but it was a domestic fully loaded to the tits totaling nearly a hundred grand. Theres no issue with that because of course she can allocate funds towards that as its needed to go around campaigning. I get legitimately mad for people in the states. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 20/07/2022 at 16:05, Viva la FCB said:

The entire system is fucked when it comes to money in congresss. The insider trading is atrocious but its appalling accross the board. Campaign financing is disgusting politicians are opening bought by big corporations and even the spending of campaign funds is hilarious what they get away with. I saw a little while back MTG that fuckwad had in her funds pay for a luxury suv - I dont recall which but it was a domestic fully loaded to the tits totaling nearly a hundred grand. Theres no issue with that because of course she can allocate funds towards that as its needed to go around campaigning. I get legitimately mad for people in the states. 

I think the corporate lobbying is the biggest issue with American politics. People really aren’t being represented for the most part, the interests of big business is always what governs policy.

I think it’s crazy there’s such a partisan divide when largely the centrist position is so similar and in the interests of the same people.

[Viva la FCB+]

That was a banger of a hearing to finish up for July. Theres is 0 doubt about culpability and dereliction of duty at this point if there ever was any I should say. If the DOJ doesnt pursue charges thats an abomination in of it itself. Hopefully Garland does the right thing.

Also the orange stain's buddy Bannon's verdict came in guilty of contempt of congress and failing to appear before the committee.