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Honda Leaving F1 After 2021

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Oh oh, so what's next for Red Bull? Renault? Surely that bridge is burnt. Ferrari? Who'd want that? Mercedes? Would they take their biggest competitor on as a customer? Doubtful. 

 

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1 hour ago, Tommy said:

Oh oh, so what's next for Red Bull? Renault? Surely that bridge is burnt. Ferrari? Who'd want that? Mercedes? Would they take their biggest competitor on as a customer? Doubtful. 

 

Renault would be forced to provide RB with the engine whether they like it or not, because they supply the least customers. 

Bad news for the sport, but not surprising. Those stupidly complex, expensive hybrid PUs with no road relevance have been nothing but a disaster. 

Hope RB partners up with someone like Cosworth now to build the engine for them. 

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I'm also wondering what happens with Tsunoda now. Yes, he's a talent, but he's also primarily a Honda protégé. Wonder if he still has that Alpha Tauri seat lined up... 

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I reckon Christian has to unblock Cyril's number now! Finally this is relevant again! 

xD

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38 minutes ago, nudge said:

20201002_143724.thumb.jpg.a09595e6bc0f5b45eeb17b24ec691ae2.jpg

Max would probably still finish on the podium somehow. 

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I'm hearing rumours Red Bull are in talks with Porsche :x

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3 hours ago, nudge said:

I'm hearing rumours Red Bull are in talks with Porsche :x

Thinking outside the box to avoid Renault. Would be even funnier it it doesn't work out and they still have to go back to Renault. xD

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1 minute ago, Tommy said:

Thinking outside the box to avoid Renault. Would be even funnier it it doesn't work out and they still have to go back to Renault. xD

Porsche was already toying with the idea of joining F1 as an engine supplier, although 2022 would probably still be too early for them as they intended to wait for the new regulations, preferably with next gen fuels. That said, they actually built and tested an F1 engine for their potential entry in 2021, so they definitely have a good base they could work on if they decided to partner up with RB from 2022, after all.

I think if RB can't take over the engine manufacturing process themselves or find another proper engine supplier and have to go back to Renault, they'll pull out of F1 altogether. 

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So apparently Max unfollowed Red Bull Racing on Instagram. :o 

Mercedes' reaction though:

 

xD

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14 minutes ago, nudge said:

 

 

What exactly does that mean? They'd lend them their facilities or what? 

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28 minutes ago, Tommy said:

What exactly does that mean? They'd lend them their facilities or what? 

They'd sell the the engine IP (i.e. designs and tooling), meaning that Red Bull would have all the knowledge required to manufacture and develop the engines in house or contract it to some external partner, and Honda also seems willing to help them out in the process. That's insanely expensive though, so I doubt RB will choose this path.

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1 minute ago, nudge said:

They'd sell the the engine IP (i.e. designs and tooling), meaning that Red Bull would have all the knowledge required to manufacture and develop the engines in house or contract it to some external partner, and Honda also seems willing to help them out in the process. That's insanely expensive though, so I doubt RB will choose this path.

Ah, cheers, got it. I really need that Christian Cyril reunion for entertainment purposes though. 

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Good news for Red Bull. Surely they'll take over Honda's engine IP now?

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On 06/10/2020 at 09:18, nudge said:

Whoa :o

 

I think Honda are just happy because it's a good way to recoup some of the losses of their return to F1. I think they were hoping developing these complex engines would drive Honda R&D more for other useful applications outside of F1... and instead they just found it to be very expensive and didn't give them much practical R&D work outside of F1 at all.

That IP is a lot more valuable to Red Bull than Honda at this point, so best deal for all parties involved tbh.

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Forgive me for being very stupid here. What exactly does an "engine freeze" mean? 

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Just now, Tommy said:

Forgive me for being very stupid here. What exactly does an "engine freeze" mean? 

No more power unit development allowed.

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4 minutes ago, nudge said:

No more power unit development allowed.

Oooh, thought as much but didn't believe it because it sounds very drastic. :o Interesting. 

 

Thank you. 

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Just now, Tommy said:

Oooh, thought as much but didn't believe it because it sounds very drastic. :o Interesting. 

I don't really see that as very drastic. Completely new engines will be introduced in 2025, so basically from 2022 the teams will have to use the last homologated engine spec for 3 seasons. I actually think it makes sense, as the teams will be able to spend more time (and money) developing completely new engines for 2025, instead of looking for slight improvements in the current ones that will soon be obsolete anyway. Any gains will have to be made on aero - so maybe we will see some crazy ideas there :D 

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As expected, Red Bull are taking over Honda engine IP and will build the engines themselves once Honda leaves at the end of 2021!

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So, it's me with the silly questions again. What does that mean exactly? Red Bull can use their facilities? Honda still builds stuff for them but in the background? They give them the pieces and the Red Bull engineers have to out the engines together like a Puzzle? xD

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20 minutes ago, Tommy said:

So, it's me with the silly questions again. What does that mean exactly? Red Bull can use their facilities? Honda still builds stuff for them but in the background? They give them the pieces and the Red Bull engineers have to out the engines together like a Puzzle? xD

Essentially, they take over the intellectual property rights for the next three years - meaning that they get all the blueprints, development data, etc. The actual assembly and servicing will be done in-house from 2022; Red Bull are adapting one of their building into an engine shop, getting all the hardware, testbenches, etc. I'm sure they will have Honda assissting them in some sort of an advisory role (and Red Bull will pretty much re-employ people currently working in Honda's R&D Department at Milton Keynes), but essentially, Red Bull will be the ones assembling and servicing the engine. That's one of the main reasons why they needed engine freeze soo badly; they should be able to assemble engines using blueprints and existing data acquired from Honda and make slight tweaks/optimisation, but they definitely lack proper development capabilities. It is rumoured that Porsche will build engines for Red Bull under new regulations from 2025...

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14 minutes ago, nudge said:

Essentially, they take over the intellectual property rights for the next three years - meaning that they get all the blueprints, development data, etc. The actual assembly and servicing will be done in-house from 2022; Red Bull are adapting one of their building into an engine shop, getting all the hardware, testbenches, etc. I'm sure they will have Honda assissting them in some sort of an advisory role (and Red Bull will pretty much re-employ people currently working in Honda's R&D Department at Milton Keynes), but essentially, Red Bull will be the ones assembling and servicing the engine. That's one of the main reasons why they needed engine freeze soo badly; they should be able to assemble engines using blueprints and existing data acquired from Honda and make slight tweaks/optimisation, but they definitely lack proper development capabilities. It is rumoured that Porsche will build engines for Red Bull under new regulations from 2025...

That is so stereotypical Japanese nice from Honda. They bow out but don't leave their partners hanging. Now Red Bull-Porsche... oof. :censored:

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4 minutes ago, Tommy said:

That is so stereotypical Japanese nice from Honda. They bow out but don't leave their partners hanging. Now Red Bull-Porsche... oof. :censored:

Well, I'm sure they are not doing it for free :7_sweat_smile: 

As for Porsche, I'd love to see them back in F1, so I'm very biased... But it's just a rumour at this point; it seems Red Bull might also be keen to develop and build their own engines in the future past 2024.

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4 minutes ago, nudge said:

Well, I'm sure they are not doing it for free :7_sweat_smile: 

As for Porsche, I'd love to see them back in F1, so I'm very biased... But it's just a rumour at this point; it seems Red Bull might also be keen to develop and build their own engines in the future past 2024.

Either way it's still nice. And I'm sure Red Bullshit got the money. :ph34r: 

Porsche returning to F1 would be inconic. Not sure if it's really possible where everyone has to cut costs nowadays. 

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1 minute ago, Tommy said:

Either way it's still nice. And I'm sure Red Bullshit got the money. :ph34r: 

Porsche returning to F1 would be inconic. Not sure if it's really possible where everyone has to cut costs nowadays. 

Hopefully, the change of regulations in favour of simpler engines will open the door for new teams as well as engine suppliers... 

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