Subscriber JoshBRFC+ 1,388 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 10 minutes ago, RandoEFC said: Supporting a football team isn't the same as supporting an F1 driver. A football team lasts your whole life, for me that's not a valid comparison, I can never imagine having the same partisan emotion towards an individual sportsperson. Regardless though, you were the one telling me it isn't depressing. If Everton were in this scenario of course I wouldn't be complaining but I certainly wouldn't be going around trying to convince neutrals that it isn't depressing and boring. The first half of today's race there were 6 drivers in 4 different cars all performing at the very maximum of their ability. Then Hamilton got into clean air and his team got the timing right with a little bit of luck thrown in on the tyre strategy. Only on his car did it seem to work to stay out instead of getting fresh intermediates. They made what appeared to be the wrong call which was exciting then it turns out it didn't matter and the second half of the race is a blowout in terms of who wins. It's another great drive from Hamilton but I'm watching as a neutral. It's great to watch history made like today but let's be honest, he had the title won back in January at the first pre-season test. You can appreciate a good film but when you've seen it over 90 times it's like, okay, maybe I'd like to watch a different film next time. You were the one who referenced football. You may not be shoving it in the neutrals faces intentionally... but you would be just by celebrating their greatness. It’s each to their own as there’s a lot of people who will agree with you and a lot of people who will agree with me. To be honest friends of mine and Lewis Hamilton fans that would probably agree with you. My group chat on WhatsApp is currently split 4-2 in a similar chat. I’m one of the two haha! I just feel like I should appreciate him even more as he’s in the latter stages of his career. That drive today was absolutely brilliant. I would have liked to see a new winner, but not just for the sake of it not being Lewis. Lewis has won after a masterclass and I’m not sat here thinking “oh god I wish his tyres blew up”. The same way if we had a new winner I wouldn’t be thinking “god I wish this person didn’t win” I’d be enjoying whoever won and appreciating their win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,368 Posted November 15, 2020 Administrator Share Posted November 15, 2020 So much to dissect from that race but obviously Hamilton was going to win so that's why I predicted as such Not many drivers will be able to overrule their team like Lewis did today and have it pay off. So much deserved trust. Happy for Perez holding out for 2nd (just!). And of course for Ferrari. What a time for Leclerc to lock up but finally something to celebrate for them in such bad conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,368 Posted November 15, 2020 Administrator Share Posted November 15, 2020 Bottas or Latifi for driver of the day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber JoshBRFC+ 1,388 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 I have to say I love the bromance between Lewis and Seb. Seb was the first to go and congratulate him. Im sure the respect has always been there between the 2, it’s just great to see that between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Tommy 12,608 Posted November 15, 2020 Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, JOSHBRFC said: I have to say I love the bromance between Lewis and Seb. Seb was the first to go and congratulate him. Im sure the respect has always been there between the 2, it’s just great to see that between them. Great moment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,368 Posted November 15, 2020 Administrator Share Posted November 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, JOSHBRFC said: I have to say I love the bromance between Lewis and Seb. Seb was the first to go and congratulate him. Im sure the respect has always been there between the 2, it’s just great to see that between them. Yep, despite the media a few years back trying to stoke up bad tension between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Tommy 12,608 Posted November 15, 2020 Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2020 lol Will Buxton "Valtteri Bottas spinning around more than Kylie Minogue today". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,644 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 4 minutes ago, JOSHBRFC said: You were the one who referenced football. You may not be shoving it in the neutrals faces intentionally... but you would be just by celebrating their greatness. It’s each to their own as there’s a lot of people who will agree with you and a lot of people who will agree with me. To be honest friends of mine and Lewis Hamilton fans that would probably agree with you. My group chat on WhatsApp is currently split 4-2 in a similar chat. I’m one of the two haha! I just feel like I should appreciate him even more as he’s in the latter stages of his career. That drive today was absolutely brilliant. I would have liked to see a new winner, but not just for the sake of it not being Lewis. Lewis has won after a masterclass and I’m not sat here thinking “oh god I wish his tyres blew up”. The same way if we had a new winner I wouldn’t be thinking “god I wish this person didn’t win” I’d be enjoying whoever won and appreciating their win. We both have our opinions, you like it, I find it boring. It's not about Hamilton, who I do actually like, it's about enjoying the variety. Even years where the dominant drivers have ended up winning the championship, 2008, 2010, whichever two years it was when Vettel pushed Hamilton until late in the season, are my favourite seasons. Then you can look at 2016 where someone different won the title but most of the races were boring, I'm completely indifferent towards it. I don't care who wins, but I want to see a competitive sport. This year has had a few good races but also a lot of processional ones and the championship has been a write off so in terms of entertainment value it's been pretty low at times. This debate started because you confronted me about calling it depressing and seemed to jump to the conclusion that I'm only saying that because I don't like Hamilton. I'm saying it because I don't like one of my favourite sports being boring and predictable. I also know Hamilton fans who find it boring. I listen to a weekly F1 podcast where all three presenters are pretty massive Hamilton fanboys and even they groan because they come back and have to do yet another podcast on Hamilton smashing the field. I just miss years like 2008 and 2010 and 2012 where nearly every race was memorable for one reason or another. Vettel had washout seasons in 2011 and 2013 which just blur into one but at least they were separated by competitive championships. For me the last 5 years of F1 have really just blurred into one with the occasional good race 3-4 times a year. In my opinion, the sport is ready for a change. There's no unknown quantity at the moment. We know Bottas won't beat Hamilton, we know none of the other teams will beat Mercedes. Change is interesting. Seeing McLaren, Racing Point, Renault, Alpha Tauri bagging podiums and regular top 6 finishes throughout the year because Ferrari and the second Red Bull are beatable has been a refreshing change. Whichever one out of Norris, Sainz, Perez, Stroll, Leclerc, Vettel, Albon, Gasly, Ricciardo and Ocon has the best day gets rewarded with a podium which is a career changing result for some of these guys. All I want is to see a bit more of that in the race winning context. Even Hamilton fans probably enjoyed Gasly's Monza win this season more than a lot of Lewis' wins. The sport needs stories and Hamilton matching and breaking Schumacher's seemingly unassailable tallies generates stories. If Hamilton gets an 8th title next year then that's a great story. However, if he wins 14 out of 23 races on the way there, and Bottas wins 6 of the others and Verstappen wins the other 3, then there's not going to be many other great stories throughout 2021. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber JoshBRFC+ 1,388 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 26 minutes ago, RandoEFC said: We both have our opinions, you like it, I find it boring. It's not about Hamilton, who I do actually like, it's about enjoying the variety. Even years where the dominant drivers have ended up winning the championship, 2008, 2010, whichever two years it was when Vettel pushed Hamilton until late in the season, are my favourite seasons. Then you can look at 2016 where someone different won the title but most of the races were boring, I'm completely indifferent towards it. I don't care who wins, but I want to see a competitive sport. This year has had a few good races but also a lot of processional ones and the championship has been a write off so in terms of entertainment value it's been pretty low at times. This debate started because you confronted me about calling it depressing and seemed to jump to the conclusion that I'm only saying that because I don't like Hamilton. I'm saying it because I don't like one of my favourite sports being boring and predictable. I also know Hamilton fans who find it boring. I listen to a weekly F1 podcast where all three presenters are pretty massive Hamilton fanboys and even they groan because they come back and have to do yet another podcast on Hamilton smashing the field. I just miss years like 2008 and 2010 and 2012 where nearly every race was memorable for one reason or another. Vettel had washout seasons in 2011 and 2013 which just blur into one but at least they were separated by competitive championships. For me the last 5 years of F1 have really just blurred into one with the occasional good race 3-4 times a year. In my opinion, the sport is ready for a change. There's no unknown quantity at the moment. We know Bottas won't beat Hamilton, we know none of the other teams will beat Mercedes. Change is interesting. Seeing McLaren, Racing Point, Renault, Alpha Tauri bagging podiums and regular top 6 finishes throughout the year because Ferrari and the second Red Bull are beatable has been a refreshing change. Whichever one out of Norris, Sainz, Perez, Stroll, Leclerc, Vettel, Albon, Gasly, Ricciardo and Ocon has the best day gets rewarded with a podium which is a career changing result for some of these guys. All I want is to see a bit more of that in the race winning context. Even Hamilton fans probably enjoyed Gasly's Monza win this season more than a lot of Lewis' wins. The sport needs stories and Hamilton matching and breaking Schumacher's seemingly unassailable tallies generates stories. If Hamilton gets an 8th title next year then that's a great story. However, if he wins 14 out of 23 races on the way there, and Bottas wins 6 of the others and Verstappen wins the other 3, then there's not going to be many other great stories throughout 2021. Like I said it’s each to their own and I do see your point of view as I have friends who think the same. I choose to look at the positives of any situation rather than “this is depressing” mentality. Just because someone delivered an absolute masterclass. And that’s what it was.... a masterclass. Like I said I would have seen the positives and appreciated the situation no matter who won. I didn’t enjoy Vettel’s dominance but I still appreciated how good he was. Same with Schumacher before him. I didn’t tune in every week and just hypothesise situations just because I didn’t find him winning enjoyable. Ultimately I respected what he was doing. There are very few serial winners like Hamilton and Schumacher, some choose to wish their dominance ended.. some can appreciate greatness. Djokovic is dominating Tennis now, I don’t particularly enjoy it but I don’t tune in and feel depressed every time he wins. I appreciate his greatness. If we do have an underdog story like today a first time race winner.... then brilliant. But the cream rose to the top.... again. It didn’t happen so I won’t be stuck in the past wishing it was 2009 again. I’ll enjoy his sheer brilliance whilst it’s here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,644 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 4 minutes ago, JOSHBRFC said: Like I said it’s each to their own and I do see your point of view as I have friends who think the same. I choose to look at the positives of any situation rather than “this is depressing” mentality. Just because someone delivered an absolute masterclass. And that’s what it was.... a masterclass. Like I said I would have seen the positives and appreciated the situation no matter who won. I didn’t enjoy Vettel’s dominance but I still appreciated how good he was. Same with Schumacher before him. I didn’t tune in every week and just hypothesise situations just because I didn’t find him winning enjoyable. Ultimately I respected what he was doing. There are very few serial winners like Hamilton and Schumacher, some chose to wish their dominance ended.. some can appreciate greatness. Djokovic is dominating Tennis now, I don’t particularly enjoy it but I don’t tune in and feel depressed every time he wins. I appreciate his greatness. If we do have an underdog story like today a first time race winner.... then brilliant. But the cream rose to the top.... again. It didn’t happen so I won’t be stuck in the past wishing it was 2009 again. I’ll enjoy his sheer brilliance whilst it’s here. I'm not losing sleep over it. I don't wish it was 2009 again but there's an awful lot of greatness in F1 that's currently going unappreciated because the competitive order hasn't changed for so long. Lewis Hamilton isn't the only "cream" in the field. It's not about whether you're capable of appreciating greatness. You can't honestly tell me that F1 wouldn't be more interesting if Verstappen or Leclerc had a good enough car to beat Hamilton now and then. You're making this into some massive philosophical debate about appreciating good sport when it isn't, even seeming to take some sort of moral high ground. This weekend was a rare chance to see someone different win a race rather than seeing the same conclusion we've seen nearly 100 times. I'm expressing disappointment that it didn't happen. That's all. If I actually found it depressing then I'd stop watching. I really don't see how expressing a desire to see some variety in a sport is some sort of controversial opinion. I haven't said one thing about Hamilton or his greatness in this whole thread. Not one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber JoshBRFC+ 1,388 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 1 minute ago, RandoEFC said: I'm not losing sleep over it. I don't wish it was 2009 again but there's an awful lot of greatness in F1 that's currently going unappreciated because the competitive order hasn't changed for so long. Lewis Hamilton isn't the only "cream" in the field. It's not about whether you're capable of appreciating greatness. You can't honestly tell me that F1 wouldn't be more interesting if Verstappen or Leclerc had a good enough car to beat Hamilton now and then. You're making this into some massive philosophical debate about appreciating good sport when it isn't, even seeming to take some sort of moral high ground. This weekend was a rare chance to see someone different win a race rather than seeing the same conclusion we've seen nearly 100 times. I'm expressing disappointment that it didn't happen. That's all. If I actually found it depressing then I'd stop watching. I really don't see how expressing a desire to see some variety in a sport is some sort of controversial opinion. I haven't said one thing about Hamilton or his greatness in this whole thread. Not one. Today’s drive is a prime example of it not being solely about the car with Lewis’ dominance. Put anyone in the same car as him he would have still won 7 World titles. I never said it was? As it’s not really that controversial as a lot of people have the same mindset and think the same as you, as I have said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ 15,325 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 Mercedes' extreme dominance when they regularly get 1-2 in the qualifying and then simply drive off into the distance at the start of the race is definitely boring, and I understand why people complain about that; I do hate it myself because such races are anticlimactic and completely dull. However, I can't understand complaints about Lewis winning today. He started from a relatively poor position in a difficult race with treacherous conditions, made a few mistakes in the beginning, spent quite some time behind other cars without being able to overtake them, but it in the end, still managed to win. He was calm and collected while his young rivals made too many mistakes, managed his tyres unbelievably well, and also controled his team strategy, all the while his teammate in the same dominant car was busy spinning around and got lapped by ten drivers. The race had all the drama it needed, surely under such circumstances it doesn't really make it any less exciting if the dominant driver wins it again? Personally, I don't particularly care about seeing as many different race winners as possible, I just want interesting races and this was definitely one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,644 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 Again, not a single time did I say that Lewis didn't deserve to win, or that today wasn't a great drive or an exciting race. But I stand by the point that I actually made in the first place, that it's a shame to see a more open race end up going to the guy who always wins anyway, not the imaginary points that I never made that everyone appears to be taking issue with. I asked a valid question in the first place though. Why did everyone else need to pit for new intermediates and Hamilton didn't? Is that because of the DAS or something else on the car? Or was it just a case of Hamilton keeping his tyres in in a way that nobody else managed to? Because up until that point he was getting beaten fair and square by Vettel and both Racing Points. Now if you want to read that question and see "hAmIlToN oNlY wOn BeCaUsE oF tHe CaR aGaIn" then you're entitled to do that I suppose. But I prefer to talk about what actually happened in the race. It's a genuine question, and don't be scared of me going "HA I told you it was the car" if someone who understands the toe of the front tyres better than me says that yes, that probably did help him keep tyre temperature while others had to pit again, because it's not lost on me that it didn't do Bottas much good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ 15,325 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 1 minute ago, RandoEFC said: Why did everyone else need to pit for new intermediates and Hamilton didn't? Perez and Kvyat didn't pit either, I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,644 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 1 minute ago, nudge said: Perez and Kvyat didn't pit either, I believe. Perez didn't but his tyres were clearly in much worse shape at that point than Hamilton's and Racing Point had the privilege of splitting their strategies. Hamilton was several seconds a lap faster at that stage before the pace levelled back out. I don't know about Kvyat but he's not really relevant because unlike Perez he was never at the front running pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber JoshBRFC+ 1,388 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 Was it not just a case of Lewis making the better decision and going against team orders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber nudge+ 15,325 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 1 minute ago, RandoEFC said: Perez didn't but his tyres were clearly in much worse shape at that point than Hamilton's and Racing Point had the privilege of splitting their strategies. Hamilton was several seconds a lap faster at that stage before the pace levelled back out. I don't know about Kvyat but he's not really relevant because unlike Perez he was never at the front running pace. True, but then both Hamilton and Perez are generally known for managing their tyres well, so it's probably not a coincidence that both were able to pit once and finish in top 2 while the others had to make 2 or even 3 stops. Also, from what I've read, Racing Point apparently chose quite an extreme setup in terms of getting as much heat into the tyres as possible, hence both Perez and Stroll being much better at the start of the race when it was still very wet and the rest of the field struggled with tyre temperature, and then their pace dropped as the track became drier towards the end of the race and the tyres started overheating. Perez still managed to deal with it even if his pace dropped, Stroll didn't. Meanwhile, Mercedes set up less aggressively and kinder on the tyres, hence why their (well, at least Hamilton's) pace today was much better compared to poor performances in yesterday's wet qualifying and their tyre wear not as bad as that of Racing Point. Hamilton struggled for a bit at the start, but once he got these tyres into the right temperature window as the track got drier, he was flying. Not sure if Mercedes were operating with DAS this weekend. I know they removed it for the Portimao race, but not sure if they installed it back or not afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber JoshBRFC+ 1,388 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 Perez did well and his experience and quality was evident today as opposed to his teammate who was in a better position for much of the race before his head went. Surely Perez will be in F1 next year? Likeably guy and great driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,644 Posted November 15, 2020 Subscriber Share Posted November 15, 2020 Stroll really did lose his head, before he lost the lead actually you could tell when the cars behind started to catch up that he suddenly felt the pressure. It sucks that it appears to be a choice between Hulkenberg or Perez or neither for the second Red Bull seat. Haas appear to be going double rookie with Schumacher and Mazepin. Alfa Romeo are retaining both of their drivers. Albon has the possibility to go back to Alpha Tauri if they opt not to give the chance to Tsunoda. But if Albon stays in the second Red Bull seat then that's curtains for both Perez and Hulkenberg at least for 2021. I thought Albon actually had one of his better weekends. Yeah he had a spin but his pace was reasonably close to Verstappen for a lot of the race. It's not enough really though. I feel sorry for him because he's obviously talented but they've ruined him by putting him in the top team too early. Gasly is actually the luckier of the two in that there was no Tsunoda coming through from below to see him lose his place in F1 altogether when the same thing happened to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Tommy 12,608 Posted November 15, 2020 Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2020 44 minutes ago, JOSHBRFC said: Surely Perez will be in F1 next year? Likeably guy and great driver. I doubt it. He said he probably has to take a sabbatical as RB seem to go with Max's preference which us Hülkenberg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,368 Posted November 15, 2020 Administrator Share Posted November 15, 2020 47 minutes ago, JOSHBRFC said: Perez did well and his experience and quality was evident today as opposed to his teammate who was in a better position for much of the race before his head went. Surely Perez will be in F1 next year? Likeably guy and great driver. I'd love him to be and its a great shame he might not have a seat next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Tommy 12,608 Posted November 15, 2020 Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2020 On reddit someone pointed out that Seb was so good because there was no grip today, and he had no grip all season. They were in his kingdom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFC 1,497 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 Lance said his tyres were graining, only a few laps after his pit-stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFC 1,497 Posted November 15, 2020 Share Posted November 15, 2020 Am really intrigued with how McLaren do next season with their new engine and with Ricciardo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Tommy 12,608 Posted November 15, 2020 Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, MUFC said: Lance said his tyres were graining, only a few laps after his pit-stop. Meanwhile Lewis drove 50 laps on the same tyres. Insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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