Southampton 1-0 Liverpool - Monday 4th January, 2021

[Mpache]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tbf Ings is more clinical, so if you're just going off goals - I don't think his view is all that controversial.

But if you put Ings back into this Liverpool side and ask him to do Firmino's job... well... we've already seen how that goes 

I haven't seen Ings in years, I'm just having a pop for him slating an unpopular opinion I made the other day.

And I disagree. If Ings' scores more goals, that makes him a better goalscorer. Higuain was a better goalscorer than Aguero, but he wasn't a better 'striker'. 

[UNIQUE]

4 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

The title is gone for Liverpool as they sit top of the league

liverpools form is in nose dive. the manchester clubs are hitting top form. liverpool have no centre backs and are not going to buy any. liverpool cant seem to play the same 11 for more than 3 games on the trot. if liverpool with the title from here then the others need to hand heads in shame. 

[Stan]

12 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

My response is to you both though.

You're dealing in speculation. I'm dealing in what we know. I just found it weird and I do think it's really tin pot actually for one relatively normal league game to evoke that emotional response in the absence of a different explanation.

Like I said if we find out that he lost his Mum last night or something then there's your explanation so I'll take it back if it emerges.

It was only a passing observation rather than me trying to dig the guy out massively, I'd have forgotten about it by now if you guys hadn't quoted my post .

I think it's sensible to think that that reaction is borne out of something very deep inside him which goes beyond football, purely for that fact it's not normal. I think it goes beyond just beating Klopp/Liverpool/Champions hence thinking it's not tin-pot. 

[Storts+]

14 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tbf Ings is more clinical, so if you're just going off goals - I don't think his view is all that controversial.

But if you put Ings back into this Liverpool side and ask him to do Firmino's job... well... we've already seen how that goes 

Don’t think we have really...hardly given a fair crack at it considering his injuries. If I could sign one of them would be Ings everytime. 

[Stan]

12 minutes ago, Mpache said:

I haven't seen Ings in years, I'm just having a pop for him slating an unpopular opinion I made the other day.

And I disagree. If Ings' scores more goals, that makes him a better goalscorer. Higuain was a better goalscorer than Aguero, but he wasn't a better 'striker'. 

Or is it because Ings is English and Firmino is South American?

[Mpache]

2 minutes ago, Stan said:

Or is it because Ings is English and Firmino is South American?

I don't have any say in the opinion. I don't know enough on the matter.

Was having a go at his hypocrisy.

[Rick]

Are we really having this conversation? Firmino is a false 9, not an out and out striker is he? Come on lads, lazy comparison. 
 

That being said, wish we had some cunt who would put the ball in the fucking net right now. 

[UNIQUE]

2 minutes ago, Rick said:

Are we really having this conversation? Firmino is a false 9, not an out and out striker is he? Come on lads, lazy comparison. 
 

That being said, wish we had some cunt who would put the ball in the fucking net right now. 

false 9 or not the guys goal record is junk. he has scored some big goals for us and he has been a top player but he needs to score goals. what did he get at home last season 2 goals. 

[Storts+]

Your advice the other day was incredible @The Palace Fan

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, Storts said:

Don’t think we have really...hardly given a fair crack at it considering his injuries. If I could sign one of them would be Ings everytime. 

The thing is, are you signing them to play in our system? Or in a different system? Because in our system, I'm not sure Ings fits in all that great (tbh neither does Origi). Firmino's an attacking midfielder that Klopp's converted into a #9 - but the number on the back of his shirt doesn't mean he's a traditional #9 at all.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Firmino's all around play and buildup being very good completely excuses him when he's not got his shooting boots on. And tbh because he's got such an important role that's pretty tough to fill in our squad, basically up until Jota came in... he really didn't have much competition and I think he's gotten a bit complacent as a result.

He's still one of the most important players for us - and at our best we're one of the best sides around. There are very few players I'd swap Firmino out for tbh.

[Mpache]

3 minutes ago, Storts said:

Your advice the other day was incredible @The Palace Fan

Do it then. Nobody is stopping you.

5 minutes ago, UNIQUE said:

false 9 or not the guys goal record is junk. he has scored some big goals for us and he has been a top player but he needs to score goals. what did he get at home last season 2 goals. 

I can't claim to know much about the situation, but I know as far as if he has other roles like Liverpool fans claim him to have, then what's the complaint?

Would you rather a limited poacher (not saying Ings is that) who won't receive much service or a player who will make your side more cohesive and help you win games?

[El Profesor]

1 hour ago, Storts said:

Ings is a better striker than Firmino 

I agree. 

The defense of Firmino, that he plays a vital role in construction has truth to it, but the likes of Benzema and Kane show that you can be a good all-around player and associate well with your teammates and also be a prolific scorer. 

 

[Stan]

Just now, Mpache said:

Would you rather a limited poacher (not saying Ings is that) who won't receive much service or a player who will make your side more cohesive and help you win games?

Obviously the latter in that hypothetical but what use is that question about being a limited poacher when it comes to discussing Ings or Firmino, if the former isn't a limited poacher? 

 

[Lucas]

I have to admit, it's interesting seeing Klopp under intense pressure now. We'll learn a lot more about him in these situations than when things are going much smoother. You normally associate him as the laughy/jokey type guy with his smile, enjoys things when its going well.

He's gone from a manager of a side who were initially the underdog for the title compared to City, so there wasn't as much heat to deal with. Now as defending champions and favourites, it feels like this season is really pushing him to his limit, especially with the circumstances going on around him. I'd actually say it looks like it's visibly taking it's toll.

He's not had it easy at all, and I do sympathise with the injury record but the nuts and bolts of it is when you are manager of the defending champions, you still need to find ways to win games.

Is his behaviour impacting the players in some way? Right now, you watch Liverpool and they look devoid of ideas. Very unlike them.

[Mpache]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

Obviously the latter in that hypothetical but what use is that question about being a limited poacher when it comes to discussing Ings or Firmino, if the former isn't a limited poacher? 

 

The critique here is that Firmino doesn't score enough.

However, I see, and am always told by Liverpool fans, that he is an important chance creator to the side and makes the side more cohesive. 

I don't want to judge Firmino here. I see him for Brazil and he's average, but I believe Liverpool fans as club level is another story and they are clearly a cohesive side from the bits I've seen.

Personally from the sounds of things, it would be hard to call him elite as he's clearly systematic. The best strikers in the world are all rounders. They can play, make the side cohesive and score a fuck ton of goals. Prime Suarez, Lewandoswki, Aguero, etc. Firmino's goalscoring record doesn't suggest the latter.

I think some people are unfair on him if what the fans say is true. If he truly makes them a more cohesive side, then it's only a good thing. They are champions after all.

[Storts+]

8 minutes ago, El Profesor said:

I agree. 

The defense of Firmino, that he plays a vital role in construction has truth to it, but the likes of Benzema and Kane show that you can be a good all-around player and associate well with your teammates and also be a prolific scorer. 

 

Yes exactly my point - I think Liverpool fans have a blind spot with Firmino personally, and he’s nowhere near as irreplaceable as they make out. This Liverpool team would be better unquestionably, and they’re already very good, with a player in that role that can actually score goals regularly 

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 minutes ago, Mpache said:

The critique here is that Firmino doesn't score enough.

However, I see, and am always told by Liverpool fans, that he is an important chance creator to the side and makes the side more cohesive. 

I don't want to judge Firmino here. I see him for Brazil and he's average, but I believe Liverpool fans as club level is another story and they are clearly a cohesive side from the bits I've seen.

Personally from the sounds of things, it would be hard to call him elite as he's clearly systematic. The best strikers in the world are all rounders. They can play, make the side cohesive and score a fuck ton of goals. Prime Suarez, Lewandoswki, Aguero, etc. Firmino's goalscoring record doesn't suggest the latter.

I think some people are unfair on him if what the fans say is true. If he truly makes them a more cohesive side, then it's only a good thing. They are champions after all.

Yeah I don't think anyone's saying he's an elite striker or world class?

He's just a very good player who plays a very particular role in a system that we play. Tbh, I think a lot of what made us so good last year was we have a very good system and when it works, it absolutely blows teams away.

And I think part of the struggles we're having this season are when you fuck the system up too much, move players around and make them play out of position or if the backups aren't high enough quality... things break down and we're not anywhere near as efficient of a side.

[UNIQUE]

i think i saw that ings has 31 goals in 49 games and thats for southampton. with a full season without injuries under klopp ings would out play firmino easy. 

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, Mpache said:

The critique here is that Firmino doesn't score enough.

However, I see, and am always told by Liverpool fans, that he is an important chance creator to the side and makes the side more cohesive. 

I don't want to judge Firmino here. I see him for Brazil and he's average, but I believe Liverpool fans as club level is another story and they are clearly a cohesive side from the bits I've seen.

Personally from the sounds of things, it would be hard to call him elite as he's clearly systematic. The best strikers in the world are all rounders. They can play, make the side cohesive and score a fuck ton of goals. Prime Suarez, Lewandoswki, Aguero, etc. Firmino's goalscoring record doesn't suggest the latter.

I think some people are unfair on him if what the fans say is true. If he truly makes them a more cohesive side, then it's only a good thing. They are champions after all.

Don't get me wrong I rate Firmino in this Liverpool side - his role in that front 3 is clear for all to see. But the question isn't where Firmino ranks amongst other 'elite' strikers. 

It's a comparison of Ings and Firmino. It probably is a totally moot point anyway because they're 2 different kinds of players as @Rick said. Ings is your more conventional striker and wouldn't look out of place in a lot of sides in the division. It's a shame his injuries seem to have held him back over the years and is perhaps underrated because of that.

Firmino clearly does a lot of the donkey work for Mane and Salah to perform next to him but in games like today you want that something special or game-changer and Firmino didn't provide. Having said that, Firmino did pop up for a few games recently and score a couple so who even really cares  

[Mpache]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah I don't think anyone's saying he's an elite striker or world class?

He's just a very good player who plays a very particular role in a system that we play. Tbh, I think a lot of what made us so good last year was we have a very good system and when it works, it absolutely blows teams away.

And I think part of the struggles we're having this season are when you fuck the system up too much, move players around and make them play out of position or if the backups aren't high enough quality... things break down and we're not anywhere near as efficient of a side.

You won the Champions League, won the league, etc. Sure you could have an 'objectively' better striker, but those aren't cheap and are few and far between. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Storts said:

Yes exactly my point - I think Liverpool fans have a blind spot with Firmino personally, and he’s nowhere near as irreplaceable as they make out. This Liverpool team would be better unquestionably, and they’re already very good, with a player in that role that can actually score goals regularly 

See I actually think Firmino shoulders a lot of the blame for this recent run of draws and this loss with our general poor form... but for the exact opposite reason. Yeah, it's obviously great when he's scoring goals regularly... but his number one job for us is to be the link between our front 3 and the rest of the side.

When we're struggling for creativity and just doing the cross & inshallah that we've been seeing lately, we're not seeing any of that inventiveness from Bobby that we're needing from him.

Our midfield was also totally shite today, quite frankly. None of the 3 who started played particularly well. Wijnaldum came out looking the best of them, I think the Ox showed he's on borrowed time with us, and Thiago I won't criticise too much because he's just back from a really lengthy layoff. Henderson in defense just makes our defense poorer and our midfield worse.

Just a bad day at the office, all around, for us tbh.

[Burning Gold]

I think you're all right to an extent. Firmino is a key part of this team because of his ability to link play, his movement, pressing, etc. and you can definitely see the difference when he's not there... but he should really score more. If his role didn't get him in positions to score, you'd say fair enough, but some of the chances he gets and squanders are unbelievable. Is he irreplaceable? Probably not, but it's a very short list of players who could do what he does and score more goals.

I don't think Ings is on that list, but I do think he's a quality player and I would've loved us to keep him. Apparently he was dead set on leaving to get more football though and fair play to him he's grabbed his opportunity with both hands. Always nice to see a player bounce back from serious injury problems and find success

[Stan]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

See I actually think Firmino shoulders a lot of the blame for this recent run of draws and this loss with our general poor form... but for the exact opposite reason. Yeah, it's obviously great when he's scoring goals regularly... but his number one job for us is to be the link between our front 3 and the rest of the side.

When we're struggling for creativity and just doing the cross & inshallah that we've been seeing lately, we're not seeing any of that inventiveness from Bobby that we're needing from him.

Our midfield was also totally shite today, quite frankly. None of the 3 who started played particularly well. Wijnaldum came out looking the best of them, I think the Ox showed he's on borrowed time with us, and Thiago I won't criticise too much because he's just back from a really lengthy layoff. Henderson in defense just makes our defense poorer and our midfield worse.

Just a bad day at the office, all around, for us tbh.

Mane and Salah were quite poor as well. In fact, I think credit has to be given to Southampton's defence here as well for not just keeping one or two of them quiet, but restricting all 3. It was a perfect defensive performance when you think of it (with a lot of luck added with the handball to be honest). 

A lot of the attacks seemed to be down the left hand side and where Mane and/or Robertson could have taken a shot, they decided to cut the ball back/cross it where there was just a pool of red and white shirts to block or clear.

Gotta get your act together soon though - Utd, Spurs and Man City being 3 of your next 6 league fixtures. And then you see Man City's fixture list - 5 of their next 6 league games are against teams currently in the bottom 7 before they play you. And Man Utd play Burnley, Fulham and Sheff Utd around their game with you...

[Devil-Dick Willie]

1 hour ago, Storts said:

Ings is a better striker than Firmino 

Unfair comparison, Ings is a striker, Firmino is a center defensive false 9 fantasista, meia atacante regista. 

[UNIQUE]

firminos hard work and pressing is easy to replicate for any player that is willing to run his nuts off and has good coaching as to where and when to use that. 25-30 goals a season can not be coached so its easier to get ings to add the qualities of firmino than it is for firmino to add the qualities of ings. just my opinion though.