MUFC 1,495 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Just now, Cicero said: Aye just ignore Lampard and Drogba hitting the post why don't ya You had some shots from distance, you mean Essien or Drogba? But we were calving you open with fluid football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFC 1,495 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Which Arsenal side was better, 97-98 or the invincible? Is it Dalglish's Blackburn vs Leicester for last place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFC 1,495 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, Cicero said: Aye just ignore Lampard and Drogba hitting the post why don't ya If Drogba never got sent off he'd have scored his penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero 5,265 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, MUFC said: You had some shots from distance, you mean Essien or Drogba? But we were calving you open with fluid football. From my memory United only really looked the better side the first half. Second half it was back to back and in extra time we were the better side. Both Lampard and Drogba hit the post. Your width cut us open but Terry and Cech were levels that night. Just now, MUFC said: If Drogba never got sent off he'd have scored his penalty. Possibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,365 Posted February 3, 2021 Administrator Share Posted February 3, 2021 10 minutes ago, MUFC said: Which Arsenal side was better, 97-98 or the invincible? Is it Dalglish's Blackburn vs Leicester for last place? Do you want a ban? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFC 1,495 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, Cicero said: From my memory United only really looked the better side the first half. Second half it was back to back and in extra time we were the better side. Both Lampard and Drogba hit the post. Your width cut us open but Terry and Cech were levels that night. Possibly. I remember you having a couple of shots hitting the wood work. I remember the first half, Tevez missed 2 sitters and on your goal 2 of our defenders along with our keeper slipped as it was throwing it down. I remember Essien hitting the post because VDS was flat footed. Then I think in extra time one of your players did a goal line clearance, not sure who it was. I remember Drogba red, it all kicked off. It also kicked off during the game after Scholes and Makelele collided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUFC 1,495 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Carlo at Chelsea, they scored shit loads of goals when they won the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny 2,201 Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Burning Gold said: Yeah, the Arsenal invincibles thing is overplayed a bit for me. It's nice and all, but the aim in a league season is to get as many points as possible and that side only just cracks the top 10. For me, and I'm echoing others a bit, but there are only two answers here. Over a 3-4 year period you're not a great side unless you've won the European Cup/Champions League. You can say it's harder to win the league (which is wrong, imo) but everyone in this list has won the league and ultimately it only makes you champions of your country. European dominance is the bigger goal. You can say it's a cup competition and there's luck involved, but if that's stopping you 3-4 years in a row, you've got bigger problems. That leaves Liverpool and Manchester United. It's got to be that United team doesn't it? 3 titles in a row and the European Cup is an incredible record That said, if you look at a single season, no one comes close to Liverpool 19/20. Before the shutdown, we'd won something stupid like 25 out of 27. We didn't hit the same heights afterwards for various reasons, but if not for that we probably would've finished on about 130 points. Also, and I know you've sort of addressed it @Danny, but I'd probably argue this iteration of Liverpool started in 18/19. Obviously we get van Dijk in 2018 which is a big difference maker and Robertson and TAA start to get phased in then too, but it's not until the summer that the core of the team really gets completed with Alisson and Fabinho. I know every team in this list will have had some player turnover season to season, but the jump in quality is staggering. Absolute shite like Mignolet, Moreno and Can replaced with some of the world's best in their position in Alisson, Robertson and Fabinho. I agree that you could make the argument this current Liverpool side began the season you won the CL, which means we may have to wait for this season to see how things go. Imo most generations last 3-4 years and if you lose Wijnaldum, Salah or Mane in the Summer and replace them then itd be fair to say that’s a new generation. But I don’t think winning the Champions League simply makes you a great side, of you do it with a league title and titles around that then yeah, it does. Both yourselves and Chelsea have won the CL with questionable sides having questionable domestic seasons. You had the chance to do a double and put yourselves up there with United but failed. Ultimately so far this group of players have only won two major competitions, the Arsenal side won 5, City won 3 plus 2 League Cups and a points record, Chelsea done the same as City prior...simple fact is this Liverpool side have won less major trophies than all of these generations of teams and tbh if you are talking about this Liverpool side as being one of the greatest then imo you are talking about underachievers because the best sides have all been able to win multiple trophies in one season and follow that up too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny 2,201 Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 19 minutes ago, MUFC said: Carlo at Chelsea, they scored shit loads of goals when they won the league. There should probably be a different topic for individual seasons, would be a completely different (and much longer ) argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero 5,265 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 22 minutes ago, MUFC said: Carlo at Chelsea, they scored shit loads of goals when they won the league. To be quite honest, that Chelsea side is arguably the most overhyped yet most successful Chelsea seasons to date. Won the double and scored loads, but the amount of points we dropped to bottom half sides was ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Blue 1,897 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 3 hours ago, LFCMike said: Man United 07-09. Three titles in a row. A European Cup and another final appearance the following year. The only side that will come close to that since then is Liverpool if they were to win the league this season You don't get to be called truly great without winning the big one Don't be silly, City did back to back titles, only team to every do a domestic quad, record points, this Liverpool team in not even a consistent top 4 side ..2018 City would beat any team in English history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadLinesman 5,938 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Domestic quad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny 2,201 Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 20 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said: Domestic quad Do you not rate that? Obviously including the Community Shield is a stretch, and the League Cup is the League Cup, but they won every competition available domestically whilst hitting 98 points (I think). I feel like that was never done before, cannot underrate that level of domination regardless of not doing it in Europe. Mind I wouldn't have that City team alongside your two, but with Liverpool, Chelsea etc...easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning Gold 599 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 59 minutes ago, Danny said: I agree that you could make the argument this current Liverpool side began the season you won the CL, which means we may have to wait for this season to see how things go. Imo most generations last 3-4 years and if you lose Wijnaldum, Salah or Mane in the Summer and replace them then itd be fair to say that’s a new generation. But I don’t think winning the Champions League simply makes you a great side, of you do it with a league title and titles around that then yeah, it does. Both yourselves and Chelsea have won the CL with questionable sides having questionable domestic seasons. You had the chance to do a double and put yourselves up there with United but failed. Ultimately so far this group of players have only won two major competitions, the Arsenal side won 5, City won 3 plus 2 League Cups and a points record, Chelsea done the same as City prior...simple fact is this Liverpool side have won less major trophies than all of these generations of teams and tbh if you are talking about this Liverpool side as being one of the greatest then imo you are talking about underachievers because the best sides have all been able to win multiple trophies in one season and follow that up too. Yeah, it's a case of seeing what happens. I don't think losing Wijnaldum would mean it's a new generation (much as I think he's a massively undervalued player) but really any one of the front three, van Dijk or TAA would mean it's a new one. I'm not saying I expect to lose any of them, but they're the players that define this team I agree just winning the Champions League doesn't make you great, but if you haven't won it there's an obvious ceiling on your claim to greatness. There's an element of randomness to the competition, but 3-4 years should be long enough to figure that out. How do you define major competitions? You're counting FA Cup, which is fair enough for the older teams, but I don't think you can count it as a major competition after about 2010. Even before then, the Champions League is weighted much higher than the FA Cup. So Arsenal did 5, but never the big one. Never made an impact beyond our shores. City won two, same as us, but in double the time. And again, never the big one. You can give Chelsea the FA Cup if you want, but you get my point I don't necessarily disagree with the underachievers tag, to be honest. We put up the third highest points total in PL history in 18/19, but got pipped by the second. Is that underachieving, or is it just unlucky? Is there a difference? Then the following season there's the Atletico Madrid game at Anfield where we ran rings around them but couldn't put the ball in the net. Then Adrian chucked a couple in because Alisson was injured. That's definitely underachieving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFCMike 3,009 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 43 minutes ago, Happy Blue said: Don't be silly, City did back to back titles, only team to every do a domestic quad, record points, this Liverpool team in not even a consistent top 4 side ..2018 City would beat any team in English history Where's your European Cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Blue 1,897 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, LFCMike said: Where's your European Cup? Where's our Premier League Trophy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFCMike 3,009 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, Happy Blue said: Where's our Premier League Trophy? Think it's yours this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning Gold 599 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 "2018 City" played one of the teams on this list 4 times. They lost three and drew one. Further, 16/17-19/20 City were the best team in the league for one out of those 4 seasons. They're unquestionably the runt of the litter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny 2,201 Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 9 minutes ago, Burning Gold said: Yeah, it's a case of seeing what happens. I don't think losing Wijnaldum would mean it's a new generation (much as I think he's a massively undervalued player) but really any one of the front three, van Dijk or TAA would mean it's a new one. I'm not saying I expect to lose any of them, but they're the players that define this team I agree just winning the Champions League doesn't make you great, but if you haven't won it there's an obvious ceiling on your claim to greatness. There's an element of randomness to the competition, but 3-4 years should be long enough to figure that out. How do you define major competitions? You're counting FA Cup, which is fair enough for the older teams, but I don't think you can count it as a major competition after about 2010. Even before then, the Champions League is weighted much higher than the FA Cup. So Arsenal did 5, but never the big one. Never made an impact beyond our shores. City won two, same as us, but in double the time. And again, never the big one. You can give Chelsea the FA Cup if you want, but you get my point I don't necessarily disagree with the underachievers tag, to be honest. We put up the third highest points total in PL history in 18/19, but got pipped by the second. Is that underachieving, or is it just unlucky? Is there a difference? Then the following season there's the Atletico Madrid game at Anfield where we ran rings around them but couldn't put the ball in the net. Then Adrian chucked a couple in because Alisson was injured. That's definitely underachieving. Arsenal won the league title, that is the big one, they won it twice. Then they also won the FA Cup 3 times, back when it was valued higher than it is today granted, but tbh the FA Cup is still a massive competition that big teams want to win, which is why since 2010 Arsenal, Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea have all won it and combined 9 times. 38 games Arsenal went competing with Fergie's Man Utd and new money Chelsea, this new obsession with the Champions League does not change the fact that it takes more for a team to win the league than the CL, certainly in the big leagues such as in England, Spain, Germany and Italy at least. I agree that not winning the Champions League creates a ceiling to your greatness, but I disagree that it takes it away because this Liverpool side does have limitations, they can't win multiple major competitions in one season, they haven't won the same competition more than once, that is a ceiling that the truly great sides who you say don't have a ceiling to their greatness didn't have. And then the teams below them too. As it is this team have won 2 major competitions, Arsenal won 5, Chelsea won 3 plus League Cups, City 3 plus League cups, and then the great United sides who won 4 (08) and 5 (99). Personally I wouldn't say you underachieved because I don't think you're up there with the likes of United, but when you say you are, then either you're wrong and you've over egged this teams achievements vs the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea, City about being that great or you've underachieved, because you don't see those two great United sides hitting the lower numbers in major silverware that you have. And that's the difference, those two United sides, and then the rest below them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Blue 1,897 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, LFCMike said: Think it's yours this season. December we was sat in mid table, it's not over till it's over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Blue 1,897 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Burning Gold said: "2018 City" played one of the teams on this list 4 times. They lost three and drew one. Further, 16/17-19/20 City were the best team in the league for one out of those 4 seasons. They're unquestionably the runt of the litter City is the team of the decade mate, runt of the litter would be you who cant consistently finish in the top 4 and just lost at home to Brighton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning Gold 599 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 52 minutes ago, Danny said: Arsenal won the league title, that is the big one, they won it twice. Then they also won the FA Cup 3 times, back when it was valued higher than it is today granted, but tbh the FA Cup is still a massive competition that big teams want to win, which is why since 2010 Arsenal, Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea have all won it and combined 9 times. 38 games Arsenal went competing with Fergie's Man Utd and new money Chelsea, this new obsession with the Champions League does not change the fact that it takes more for a team to win the league than the CL, certainly in the big leagues such as in England, Spain, Germany and Italy at least. I agree that not winning the Champions League creates a ceiling to your greatness, but I disagree that it takes it away because this Liverpool side does have limitations, they can't win multiple major competitions in one season, they haven't won the same competition more than once, that is a ceiling that the truly great sides who you say don't have a ceiling to their greatness didn't have. And then the teams below them too. As it is this team have won 2 major competitions, Arsenal won 5, Chelsea won 3 plus League Cups, City 3 plus League cups, and then the great United sides who won 4 (08) and 5 (99). Personally I wouldn't say you underachieved because I don't think you're up there with the likes of United, but when you say you are, then either you're wrong and you've over egged this teams achievements vs the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea, City about being that great or you've underachieved, because you don't see those two great United sides hitting the lower numbers in major silverware that you have. And that's the difference, those two United sides, and then the rest below them. I can't be bothered looking back through the FA Cup and league records, but with the exception of City those teams won the cup when they weren't doing anything in the league or Europe. Any team with anything to play for sacks it off early doors. Arsenal competed with Ferguson's Man United and new money Chelsea for 4 games. The remaining 34 were against the likes of Chris Coleman's Fulham or Micky Adams' Leicester. Meanwhile Liverpool beat Tuchel's PSG, Ancelotti's Napoli, Bayern Munich and Messi's Valverde's Barcelona on the way to the Champions League in 18/19. I'm just not having that it takes more to win the league than the Champions League, especially not back then. The invincibles may have got 90 points, but they only needed 80 (2nd place got 79). That wouldn't get you close these days Can't argue with the one major trophy/year thing (obviously) but we got 97 points in 18/19 dammit There are only 2 major competitions you can win these days, so you've got to be perfect to win more than one. No one's done that combination since what, 2010? We've done one each in 2 years. Arsenal 5 in 4 fair enough is impressive but they haven't hit the heights of Europe. Chelsea 3 in 4 years and City 3 (if you insist) in 4 years is hardly more impressive than Liverpool 2 in 2. I don't think we're up there with the Man United teams, but we're above the rest Man Utd Liverpool Chelsea Arsenal City Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny 2,201 Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 So the invcibles still got 90 points though, what an amazing pointless comparison To shrug off the weekly demands of the Premier League is amazing, just can't take the opinion that its more difficult to win the Champions League seriously, yourselves and Chelsea proved its not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning Gold 599 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 8 minutes ago, Danny said: So the invcibles still got 90 points though, what an amazing pointless comparison To shrug off the weekly demands of the Premier League is amazing, just can't take the opinion that its more difficult to win the Champions League seriously, yourselves and Chelsea proved its not. Far more common for a team to win the league and go nowhere in Europe than vice-versa. I'm not shrugging off anything; we're talking about 5 of the best teams in Premier League history, but two of them conquered Europe and three couldn't make it beyond England Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny 2,201 Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, Burning Gold said: Far more common for a team to win the league and go nowhere in Europe than vice-versa. I'm not shrugging off anything; we're talking about 5 of the best teams in Premier League history, but two of them conquered Europe and three couldn't make it beyond England And one of them couldn't win more than two major competitions, unlike the others doing 5, and 3+ league cups Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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