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FINAL - Italy (p) 1-1 England - Sunday 11th July, 2021


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Let's leave the personal abuse out of it from what is a very emotive subject anyway. You're all capable of having a civilised discussion!

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11 hours ago, internationalsfan said:

https://www.sportbible.com/football/football-news-jose-mourinho-claims-england-player-refused-to-take-a-penalty-20210713

 

Jesse Lingard or Dele Alli surely? Probably Dele as Mourinho might actually know him better. Could explain his deterioration since. Imaging being told you'll not br picked for your country? 

Mourinho preaching on the virtues of taking responsibility xD. Next week, Gary Glitter teaches us how to look after kids.

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4 hours ago, Stan said:

Let's leave the personal abuse out of it from what is a very emotive subject anyway. You're all capable of having a civilised discussion!

Not with pricks like that I'm not mate.  I've seen racism in my life alot it makes me sick. I'm sure it's been horrendous for you at times mate. I dont have any tolerance for it. These people make the world a worse place. They deserve all the insults they get 

Edited by Gunnersauraus
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@Gunnersauraus ASF didn't actually say anything racist. The guy he quoted probably isn't racist either, just either trying to be edgy to get attention, or a contrarian, or he just wants to blindly think racism isn't a problem because he can't be bothered reflecting on his behaviour or he has an overly romanticised view of Britain. Any number of possible reasons, he might be selfish and dishonest, he might even be a bit racist, but most people aren't. If you go around calling people racist pricks just because they don't agree with you on something like taking the knee, you're being just as intolerant to be honest, just in a different way. If you actually want to convince people to get on board with what you think, you need to listen and respond. If you can't convince them or don't want to, then just agree to disagree and move on.

Reacting the way you have is also counter-productive. The 'other side' of this argument will often use reactions like yours as an example to paint those of us who support this gesture in favour of racial equality as screeching extremists who call you racist for nothing. This isn't what ASF is trying to do, but more cynical and dishonest operators will do, so try to be more careful with how you react to people who disagree with you. If you have a reasonable argument but you act unreasonable, you undermine your reasonable argument.

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Nobody should tolerate or pander racists. I wouldn't waste my breath trying to get any racist 'on board' cos they don't wanna understand. They're ignorant fuckers, who are more than happy to 'not understand'.

Edited by shut up
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9 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

@Gunnersauraus ASF didn't actually say anything racist. The guy he quoted probably isn't racist either, just either trying to be edgy to get attention, or a contrarian, or he just wants to blindly think racism isn't a problem because he can't be bothered reflecting on his behaviour or he has an overly romanticised view of Britain. Any number of possible reasons, he might be selfish and dishonest, he might even be a bit racist, but most people aren't. If you go around calling people racist pricks just because they don't agree with you on something like taking the knee, you're being just as intolerant to be honest, just in a different way. If you actually want to convince people to get on board with what you think, you need to listen and respond. If you can't convince them or don't want to, then just agree to disagree and move on.

Reacting the way you have is also counter-productive. The 'other side' of this argument will often use reactions like yours as an example to paint those of us who support this gesture in favour of racial equality as screeching extremists who call you racist for nothing. This isn't what ASF is trying to do, but more cynical and dishonest operators will do, so try to be more careful with how you react to people who disagree with you. If you have a reasonable argument but you act unreasonable, you undermine your reasonable argument.

I'm not saying he is racist but he is tolerating it and saying it's not a problem which is very problematic. I've also given people who boo it the benefit of the doubt that they may still still think it's to do with the blm. However southgate has specifically said it's not it's a anti discrimination gesture.  I admit they're may be reasons they boo it that I haven't thought of. However I'd be surprised if a majority of the people who boo it arent at least some what racist. 

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9 minutes ago, shut up said:

Nobody should tolerate or pander racists. I'm wouldn't waste my breath trying to get any racist 'on board' cos they don't wanna understand. They're ignorant fuckers, who are more than happy to 'not understand'.

Thats what I think. There are some people who are just ignorant on certain matters. Which is fair enough. But there are some who are just happy to be racist. 

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@ASF sorry for insulting you. However I do feel racism is a very selfish issue that we need to stop. Not only towards black people but everyone. Some of the abuse Europeans have received in Britain is terrible. 

However back to the point. If you were happy that the knee was not linked to the blm what would be your objections? Like I said in a previous post, people may have their reasons for booing it. But it's hard to see why someone would boo an equality gesture 

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Yeah, for me it's been total cringe hearing boos when the players are doing what I take to be a unity, inclusion, respect type thing.

Like Southgate said at some stage, perhaps some are not understanding it. Or I'd tentatively offer myself that an absolute disgrace of an American 'law enforcer' happened, it's been dealt with by the Americans & they think it's time to move on perhaps.

And in a way, when anything at all is demonstrated about, someone somewhere is not going to be getting why people feel that way.

But to boo the gesture that very clearly feels to me to be about unity, inclusion, respect seems odd. There's even been that TV ad campaign about online hate. As a programme guide to what we're seeing.

And it's surely most strongly about school kids who look at these guys as role models, not as an extension of their own rigid ideals. And perhaps some of the older boo boys need to think about that. It surely will shape young lads ideas about how to handle things going in their own lives. Whatever they may be.

Edited by Reluctant Striker
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2 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Not with pricks like that I'm not mate.  I've seen racism in my life alot it makes me sick. I'm sure it's been horrendous for you at times mate. I dont have any tolerance for it. These people make the world a worse place. They deserve all the insults they get 

You can have an educated discussion about it without throwing around insults. End of. 

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30 minutes ago, Reluctant Striker said:

Yeah, for me it's been total cringe hearing boos when the players are doing what I take to be a unity, inclusion, respect type thing.

Like Southgate said at some stage, perhaps some are not understanding it. Or I'd tentatively offer myself that an absolute disgrace of an American 'law enforcer' happened, it's been dealt with by the Americans & they think it's time to move on perhaps.

And in a way, when anything at all is demonstrated about, someone somewhere is not going to be getting why people feel that way.

But to boo the gesture that very clearly feels to me to be about unity, inclusion, respect seems odd. There's even been that TV ad campaign about online hate. As a programme guide to what we're seeing.

And it's surely most strongly about school kids who look at these guys as role models, not as an extension of their own rigid ideals. And perhaps some of the older boo boys need to think about that. It surely will shape young lads ideas about how to handle things going in their own lives. Whatever they may be.

I can understand not clapping it. But I can't understand why anyone would boo it unless they were at least slightly racist. I may be wrong but I'd be very surprised if anyone who booed it really cared about racism. Even when  it was linked with blm it was obvious booing it would probably create more racism issues because booing an anti racism group will do that. 

If you do some research into blm you will find most of there protests have been peaceful. All protests get out of control sometimes. Also when you feel you are being persecuted by police its understandable you are angry. Also they're not marxists. The people who set them up are but there manifesto is about equality not Marxism. All anti racism groups cause a certain amount of divide. Thats just inevitable. But a lot of people have shown support for anti racism messages so they have done good as well. 

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Just watched some old shoot outs and the approach was very different. Everyone either picked a corner or just blasted it as hard as they could, no tricky stutter steps, skips, or soft rolls in the net.

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6 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

@Gunnersauraus ASF didn't actually say anything racist. The guy he quoted probably isn't racist either, just either trying to be edgy to get attention, or a contrarian, or he just wants to blindly think racism isn't a problem because he can't be bothered reflecting on his behaviour or he has an overly romanticised view of Britain. Any number of possible reasons, he might be selfish and dishonest, he might even be a bit racist, but most people aren't. If you go around calling people racist pricks just because they don't agree with you on something like taking the knee, you're being just as intolerant to be honest, just in a different way. If you actually want to convince people to get on board with what you think, you need to listen and respond. If you can't convince them or don't want to, then just agree to disagree and move on.

Reacting the way you have is also counter-productive. The 'other side' of this argument will often use reactions like yours as an example to paint those of us who support this gesture in favour of racial equality as screeching extremists who call you racist for nothing. This isn't what ASF is trying to do, but more cynical and dishonest operators will do, so try to be more careful with how you react to people who disagree with you. If you have a reasonable argument but you act unreasonable, you undermine your reasonable argument.

I definitely don't think @ASF is racist, or that he's said anything racist. Calling someone racist is a pretty serious allegation and I don't think you are necessarily racist if you don't support the players' protest to take the knee (although I think if you're outright booing them... you maybe are a racist or have your own prejudices/biases that you should personally reflect on if you don't want to be racist).

I do think the guy he quoted, Paul Joseph Watson... is a racist - but I think you can quote people who are racist without being racist. You can even agree with their arguments as to why something should/shouldn't be supported and not be racist - although I think with someone like Paul Joseph Watson you're likely to be getting manipulated into agreeing with dishonest arguments that are designed to normalise racist views. But the guy's been around for a few years now spreading racially divisive bullshit - often times his claims have been proven to be untrue by actual journalists - and he was ultimately banned from Facebook for promoting racism and language that a reasonable person could pretty easily take as "incitement of racially motivated violence" ... so I do think there's a pretty strong argument that Paul Joseph Watson is indeed a racist.

I do agree that constructive debate with people you disagree with is a better way of handling situations than just calling people scum or a cunt or whatever when you disagree with them. And I do think that here, a member of the forum has been mislead about our players taking the knee and what that means.

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On 11/07/2021 at 20:53, montybhopa said:

Pickford has not made even a single decent save in this tournament 

I've  a spare pair of spectacles for free cos we all know you need them, Oh! Sorry, you're a Liverpool fan, silly me.

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20 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

When a man gets down on one knee to propose to his girlfriend (or boyfriend), is he supporting a Marxist movement to defund the police? :ph34r:

Could be both but it also reinforces the patriarchy in case of women if it's done publicly as women will have an added pressure to say yes despite not wanting  to. :coffee:

Edited by McAzeem
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On 14/07/2021 at 07:01, RandoEFC said:

No need for this as it never helps but @ASF if you're going to believe a YouTube video about the knee stuff over the players and manager saying repeatedly what the point of it is you're basically disagreeing with it for made up reasons. The video you've posted is by a guy called Paul Joseph Watson. A quick look at his Twitter feed...

... reveals him as someone who feels more upset about people showing solidarity to Marcus Rashford getting abused online, than he is about the racism itself. In fact he appears to spend so much time tweeting each day complaining about masks and denying the existence of racism in the UK that I'm surprised he's got time to make a video. I mean how stupid is this guy that he blames the actual racist graffiti on the mural in Manchester on social media accounts in Asia? Absolutely desperate stuff.

Why do people find it so much easier to believe that a bunch of multi millionaire footballers who see their team mates get racially abused on a regular basis, are secretly conspiring with the Marxist BLM defund the police group than they are to make a simple gesture in solidarity? Paul Joseph Watson has probably never met a single one of these players. Is he really better qualified than them to explain why they're making the gesture? This isn't a matter of opinion, the answer is no. Come on mate.

It's tempting to think this and I did for a while. It remains true that the gesture alone is only a gesture but they've been vindicated in continuing to do it. See the conversations that have occurred around these issues over the past months. See the polling that says the majority of English football fans support the gesture even in the face of all the bed wetting from the Murdochian type newspaper columnists and and Paul Joseph Watson types tweeting from their Mummy's basement. See the way this England team mobilised the decent people of this country to rally around the lads who were racially abused by a dumb minority over the past few days. See the way the juvenile booing at the gesture reduced throughout the tournament.

Despite all of this, action is needed to combat racism, not just a gesture, but it's hard to argue that the protest itself hasn't had some positive impact over the last few weeks.

No one said they were conspiring. However, the bending the knee before games started right after the death of George Floyd and all the circus that followed (I don't think he deserved to die like that, but this man was a criminal, even pointed a gun at a pregnant woman). So it's hard to not believe that the two are linked.

If they're not, then fair enough.

 

On 14/07/2021 at 14:29, Gunnersauraus said:

@ASF  @RandoEFC has literally just proved the guy you posted a video of his a clear racist. So you're not as clever as you think you are. 

Hum? Ok.

 

On 14/07/2021 at 15:16, Gunnersauraus said:

@ASF sorry for insulting you. However I do feel racism is a very selfish issue that we need to stop. Not only towards black people but everyone. Some of the abuse Europeans have received in Britain is terrible. 

However back to the point. If you were happy that the knee was not linked to the blm what would be your objections? Like I said in a previous post, people may have their reasons for booing it. But it's hard to see why someone would boo an equality gesture 

No objections.

 

On 14/07/2021 at 20:52, Dr. Gonzo said:

I definitely don't think @ASF is racist, or that he's said anything racist. Calling someone racist is a pretty serious allegation and I don't think you are necessarily racist if you don't support the players' protest to take the knee (although I think if you're outright booing them... you maybe are a racist or have your own prejudices/biases that you should personally reflect on if you don't want to be racist).

I do think the guy he quoted, Paul Joseph Watson... is a racist - but I think you can quote people who are racist without being racist. You can even agree with their arguments as to why something should/shouldn't be supported and not be racist - although I think with someone like Paul Joseph Watson you're likely to be getting manipulated into agreeing with dishonest arguments that are designed to normalise racist views. But the guy's been around for a few years now spreading racially divisive bullshit - often times his claims have been proven to be untrue by actual journalists - and he was ultimately banned from Facebook for promoting racism and language that a reasonable person could pretty easily take as "incitement of racially motivated violence" ... so I do think there's a pretty strong argument that Paul Joseph Watson is indeed a racist.

I do agree that constructive debate with people you disagree with is a better way of handling situations than just calling people scum or a cunt or whatever when you disagree with them. And I do think that here, a member of the forum has been mislead about our players taking the knee and what that means.

I'm clearly not a racist, because I've stated before that the human dignity is the same for all people.

As for being mislead, see my answer to Rando.

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