Vaccine Debate

[Beelzebub]

30 minutes ago, nudge said:

A domestic vaccine passport in order to be able to buy groceries or ride a bus to work is a completely new and unprecedented thing, though.

Only if they do the same for who pays taxes

[Spike]

50 minutes ago, nudge said:

A domestic vaccine passport in order to be able to buy groceries or ride a bus to work is a completely new and unprecedented thing, though.

Not really? It's analogous to any other social contract that people subconsciously agree to whenever they are out in public; you could argue it is more invasive but not unprecedented

[nudge+]

5 hours ago, Spike said:

Not really? It's analogous to any other social contract that people subconsciously agree to whenever they are out in public; you could argue it is more invasive but not unprecedented

Is it though? I can't recall any country or nation at any point of history that would deny access to essential resources, transportation or basic medical services to its citizens based on their vaccination status, in some cases even circumventing the constitution. 

I'm pro-vaccination (making this clear just in case someone misunderstands my position), but as someone who grew up in an oppressive regime, I have a very low tolerance threshold on governmental control, privacy invasion, and any measures that divide society into classes of varying degrees of privilege, especially when it's obvious that it's not a necessity.

I also think there's a lot of misdirected anger out there. If anyone's primary concern is the global crackdown on transmission and returning to "normality" (if that's even an option anymore), they shouldn't really be focusing on maybe 10% of those in "developed" world who are strongly against getting vaccinated or on 15-20% of those who are still unsure and hesitating (and who'll likely change their minds as soon as they see that vaccines work and the vaccinated are not dropping dead en masse) - a much bigger concern by far should be the fact that less than 2% in the developing nations have had at least one jab, making the rest of the world's attempts more or less futile. The original post asked if not getting the vaccine is selfish - well I'd say that western governments pushing for the booster jab for their already vaccinated population while 70% of the world hasn't even had the luxury of a single one  is by far more selfish than someone in Germany, the UK, or the US still being hesitant about getting theirs, regardless of their reasoning.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, nudge said:

I also think there's a lot of misdirected anger out there. If anyone's primary concern is the global crackdown on transmission and returning to "normality" (if that's even an option anymore), they shouldn't really be focusing on maybe 10% of those in "developed" world who are strongly against getting vaccinated or on 15-20% those who are still unsure and hesitating (and who'll likely change their minds as soon they see that vaccines work and the vaccinated are not dropping dead en masse) - a much bigger concern by far should be the fact that less than 2% in the developing nations have at least had one jab, making the rest of the world's attempts more or less futile. The original post asked if not getting the vaccine is selfish - well I'd say that western governments pushing for the booster jab for their already vaccinated population while 70% of the world hasn't even had the luxury of a single one  is by far more selfish than someone in Germany, the UK, or the US still being hesitant about getting theirs, regardless of their reasoning.

I agree with this as well.

It's a global pandemic - that means the whole world is affected. And in developing nations, things like "working from home" or "social distancing" are luxuries that not many people have. And it's easy to forget, with how easy access to vaccines is in developed western nations, that vaccine access is much fucking harder to come by in developing nations. Especially if you're in a developing nation where your government has decided to challenge the US's hegemony so Western governments literally could not give a fuck whether or not you die until your government changes.

[Harry]

In Australia we have a target. Get 80% of adults vaccinated and then there'll be no more lockdowns.

From that perspective it is selfish not to get vaccinated as you're actively contributing to the ongoing deprival of freedoms to so many.

[Harry]

I think herd immunity might be unachievable with Delta though so I think the whole get vaccinated to protect your neighbour is a bit of a false narrative.

I'm banking on us all getting COVID by the end of 2022 because it's just so infectious and the vaccines don't seem to do enough to crush transmission, only hospitalisation and death.

[Spike]

6 hours ago, nudge said:

Is it though? I can't recall any country or nation at any point of history that would deny access to essential resources, transportation or basic medical services to its citizens based on their vaccination status, in some cases even circumventing the constitution. 

I'm pro-vaccination (making this clear just in case someone misunderstands my position), but as someone who grew up in an oppressive regime, I have a very low tolerance threshold on governmental control, privacy invasion, and any measures that divide society into classes of varying degrees of privilege, especially when it's obvious that it's not a necessity.

I also think there's a lot of misdirected anger out there. If anyone's primary concern is the global crackdown on transmission and returning to "normality" (if that's even an option anymore), they shouldn't really be focusing on maybe 10% of those in "developed" world who are strongly against getting vaccinated or on 15-20% of those who are still unsure and hesitating (and who'll likely change their minds as soon as they see that vaccines work and the vaccinated are not dropping dead en masse) - a much bigger concern by far should be the fact that less than 2% in the developing nations have had at least one jab, making the rest of the world's attempts more or less futile. The original post asked if not getting the vaccine is selfish - well I'd say that western governments pushing for the booster jab for their already vaccinated population while 70% of the world hasn't even had the luxury of a single one  is by far more selfish than someone in Germany, the UK, or the US still being hesitant about getting theirs, regardless of their reasoning.

I’m just grumpy and just trying to squash any sort of dissenting view, pay me no mind. I’m betwixt culture that celebrates paranoia and a double-think love and distrust of their government - and a from culture whose government idolises the former.

 

[Spike]

58 minutes ago, Harry said:

I think herd immunity might be unachievable with Delta though so I think the whole get vaccinated to protect your neighbour is a bit of a false narrative.

I'm banking on us all getting COVID by the end of 2022 because it's just so infectious and the vaccines don't seem to do enough to crush transmission, only hospitalisation and death.

I’m banking you’d lose that bet with Australia’s federal and NSW’s state governments. Gold Standard Gladys will pinch your jabs for Sydney private schoolboys. 

[Honey Honey]

Someone I know who won't get the vaccine denies that getting it helps others because they can still get covid. Another doesn't see the point in the "risk" of the vaccine if vaccinated people still end up in hospital.

There's nothing you can say that they don't have an answer for. It is like talking to someone severely depressed, no matter what you say their black and white thinking is impenetrable. When faced with ambiguity and varying statistical probabilities they home in on the weak argument and give it extraordinary weight. 

Just as a socially anxious person might have an overarching low self esteem which leads to their inability to handle the ambiguity of being out and about, the vaccine refusers I know have an overarching mistrust of authoritative figures in their life. That leads into a mistrust of government that has them suspect the vaccine is bad for them and the government is hiding something.

[Happy Blue]

When the vaccine is more dangerous then the flu, sorry "covid"   ..the long term effects of these shots are unknown, the death rate for covid is 0.5%, i will take my chances

[Beelzebub]

I also partly blame Hollywood and fiction writers for the theories. They've made movies about almost every apocalyptic scenario. Even my mind thinks of some movie if something similar happen in real life. 

[Waylander]

It's funny how the Aisian outbreak of Corona Virus in the early 2000's has not been discussed in Western media, wonder why not?

You see I was travelling through Singapore at the time and many were wearing masks.

[MUFC]

2 hours ago, Waylander said:

It's funny how the Aisian outbreak of Corona Virus in the early 2000's has not been discussed in Western media, wonder why not?

You see I was travelling through Singapore at the time and many were wearing masks.

Never heard of this virus, was it worldwide? 

[nudge+]

1 minute ago, MUFC said:

Never heard of this virus, was it worldwide? 

You haven't heard of SARS?

[MUFC]

11 minutes ago, nudge said:

You haven't heard of SARS?

I have, he used a different name or something from the SARS family maybe. 

Oh Lewis.

Oh Max.

[Waylander]

1 hour ago, MUFC said:

Never heard of this virus, was it worldwide? 

In Asia 2003, some alternative people speculated whether this was a genetic weapon as it did not reach the West just seemed to affect Chinese, Japanese and Koreans rather than say Indians. Perhaps it was just that the world was less globalised........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome_coronavirus

[LFCMike]

21 hours ago, Happy Blue said:

When the vaccine is more dangerous then the flu, sorry "covid"   ..the long term effects of these shots are unknown, the death rate for covid is 0.5%, i will take my chances

This is completely untrue https://fullfact.org/health/daily-expose-covid-deaths-vaccine-deaths/

If you don't want to take the vaccine then that's up to you but please don't be one of these dickheads that posts shite that could discourage others from getting it.

[Happy Blue]

2 hours ago, LFCMike said:

This is completely untrue https://fullfact.org/health/daily-expose-covid-deaths-vaccine-deaths/

If you don't want to take the vaccine then that's up to you but please don't be one of these dickheads that posts shite that could discourage others from getting it.

Everything i said is true, the long term effects of the vaccine are un-known, it was rushed out and no long term studies have been done on  it ..the death rate of covid is very, very low. they boosted the figures by adding people dying of cancer etc and putting covid as the cause of death, my mother died of pneumonia and they put covid as cause of death and she never even had it  ..then the vaccine doesn't even stop you getting covid

They are going to play the vaccine deaths and health issues it causes down, they want you all to get it like the normal flu shot every year, even Elon Musk, one of the smartest men on the planet is telling people not to get it. for 99% of people it's just a flu

[LFCMike]

12 minutes ago, Happy Blue said:

Everything i said is true, the long term effects of the vaccine are un-known, it was rushed out and no long term studies have been done on  it ..the death rate of covid is very, very low. they boosted the figures by adding people dying of cancer etc and putting covid as the cause of death, my mother died of pneumonia and they put covid as cause of death and she never even had it  ..then the vaccine doesn't even stop you getting covid

They are going to play the vaccine deaths and health issues it causes down, they want you all to get it like the normal flu shot every year, even Elon Musk, one of the smartest men on the planet is telling people not to get it. for 99% of people it's just a flu

You said the vaccine is more dangerous than covid, that is completely untrue.

If anything the deaths were under reported last year when you look at excess deaths compared to previous years.

The vaccine doesn't stop you getting it but it does decrease the likelihood of that and that you will pass it on. It's also stopped a hell of a lot of people getting seriously ill or dying.

[Happy Blue]

36 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

You said the vaccine is more dangerous than covid, that is completely untrue.

If anything the deaths were under reported last year when you look at excess deaths compared to previous years.

The vaccine doesn't stop you getting it but it does decrease the likelihood of that and that you will pass it on. It's also stopped a hell of a lot of people getting seriously ill or dying.

We are just going to go in circles so lets just agree to disagree  

[Tommy]

A tiny island like Malta is a pretty good place to get decent figures, I think. 90% of their population is vaccinated. And from the new cases they get, 75% is from unvaccinated people. And the 25% infections from vaccinated people is mostly from elderly people or those who have conditions that effects their immune system. 

[Waylander]

Another interesting thing that played out in the British media about a decade ago.

Bird flu outbreaks in chicken food production with birds needing to be destroyed.

Later the authorities say they have traced the outbreak to a farm in Surrey or Sussex that has organic chicken. So the men in white suits descend. Fears are this might destroy the whole organic meat industry.

The findings are revealed a short time later, the virus identified was not a natural virus and seems to have been a strain from Porton Down the defence establishment. 

The bird flu story then rapidly dropped out of the press.

Perhaps one power faction was at play stopped by another.

It's a strange world we live in.

 

 

 

[Bluewolf]

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 14/08/2021 at 10:33, Waylander said:

It's funny how the Aisian outbreak of Corona Virus in the early 2000's has not been discussed in Western media, wonder why not?

You see I was travelling through Singapore at the time and many were wearing masks.

There was MERS too. I think both SARS & MERS vaccine work is partially how the COVID-19 vaccines were able to be developed so quickly.

So maybe Western media should be talking about those a bit more, to sort of assuage some of the fears about the virus.

[Toinho]

On 14/08/2021 at 07:03, Harry said:

In Australia we have a target. Get 80% of adults vaccinated and then there'll be no more lockdowns.

From that perspective it is selfish not to get vaccinated as you're actively contributing to the ongoing deprival of freedoms to so many.

Think our premier thinks different with the 80% and no lockdowns. I don’t mind his approach so far. We only need to look at the mess NSW is in to prove he is doing a much better job.

Ive booked in for my first dose in late September as thst time suits me best. Not worried about the actual vaccine except I often feel side effects of things, even the whooping cough one last year! I’m happy to do my bit though and honestly don’t understand the rubbish I read from anti-vaccine people. Their arguments often don’t make sense. And yep they seem to forget about polio, flu, etc.