Russia and Ukraine

[Tommy]

[Beelzebub]

6 minutes ago, Aladdin said:

Zelensky tweeted implying Turkey may close Bosporus for Russian warships !!! If confirmed this can be huge 

[Stan]

Interesting how football clubs can stick up for Ukraine with signs and banners on the pitch/TV screens which is totally fine. 

But bring out Palestine flags and that's a big no no

 

[Beelzebub]

27 minutes ago, shut up said:

Bottle job turks

Turkey wouldn't take that decision unilaterally, it means potential siege of Istanbul

[Beelzebub]

 

[Fairy In Boots]

2 hours ago, El Profesor said:

 

I agree. But at the same time, I understand why people do that.

Hitler is for us what the Napoleon and the French revolution was to people in the 19th century. Any historical event is measured and compared to Hitler and the World War II. We still very much live in the shadow of that war.  

By the way, I saw a guy on Twitter comparing Putin´s invasion of Ukraine not with Hitler´s agression of Czechoslovakia but with Mussolini´s invasion of Ethiopia in 1935. I agree, that was a very good point. It´s a much better comparison. It was a widely condemned attack and it isolated Mussolini, driving him to the arms of a more powerful ally, Nazi Germany. 

Before the invasion of Somalia, Mussolini and Hitler didn´t get along very well, considering both had conflicting claims regarding austrian territory. 

I think the same could happen with Russia. Ukraine will make Russia into a pariah state and will drive Putin to the arms of China.

 

They’re already in the arms of China, demand for gas and common enemy in the US has made them bed fellows years ago. 
 

this has been going on 8 years thousand dead only now is the worlds media paying attention. Granted Putin has escalated it but where was the condemnation 6 months ago? 

[Guest]

As sad as it is what's happening. The sad fact is it happens all the time. As @Devil-Dick Willie would probably say if this was some country in africa no one would care. But because it affects us we do. I do agree with countries boycotting russia. But we dont do it with all the countries that invade others because it's not in our interest 

[Cicero]

It isn’t as if no one would care, it’s more like the media wouldn’t care. Ask anyone about a war going on in an African country, more than most  wouldn’t have the slightest idea. 
 

The media get to pick and choose what gets the most coverage, in virtually all aspects of life. Especially if a story fits that media’s left wing or right wing agenda. 

[Tommy]

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Cicero said:

It isn’t as if no one would care, it’s more like the media wouldn’t care. Ask anyone about a war going on in an African country, more than most  wouldn’t have the slightest idea. 
 

The media get to pick and choose what gets the most coverage, in virtually all aspects of life. Especially if a story fits that media’s left wing or right wing agenda. 

I perhaps worded it abit wrong. What I mean is even when people are aware of conflicts in Africa they dont have the sympathy they do for ukraine. Countries in Africa arent cut of in the same way russia had been. Dont get me wrong I think it's good that people do care. I just wished they cared about other countries in the same way 

[Guest]

So I'm  not that educated on the subject. How is Putin justifying the invasion? From what I have read and heard there are people in Ukraine who wanted to stay with russia and the Soviet union. Those people are genrally in certain regions of russia and Putin originally said he was trying to free those areas from Ukraine. That was his justification for invading crimea.  So what is his justification for taking the whole country when they don't want to be part of russia? From what I can gather he says Ukraine must not become part of nato. So it seems as if it is about power and influence really. He thinks that ukaraine should be part of russia or at least controlled by russia? 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Guest

[MUFC]

Is there a chance that Putin can get overthrown from with Russia? Could his own country turn on him? 

[MUFC]

49 minutes ago, Cicero said:

It isn’t as if no one would care, it’s more like the media wouldn’t care. Ask anyone about a war going on in an African country, more than most  wouldn’t have the slightest idea. 
 

The media get to pick and choose what gets the most coverage, in virtually all aspects of life. Especially if a story fits that media’s left wing or right wing agenda. 

The bold is a good point. But for me this is what happens when people solely rely on mainstream media. People are too lazy in this day and age to research information. 

[RandoEFC+]

56 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Ask anyone about a war going on in an African country, more than most  wouldn’t have the slightest idea. 

This is the main sticking point for me with some of the whataboutery in this thread. People need to accept that some land in the majority of the population that get their news from what's on the television and that when stuff like Yemen and arms sales get mentioned in this thread, it's the first many have heard of it. By all means shit on the media for that but there's no need for us to be having pops at each other over it and calling people hypocrites or inconsistent for not having opinions on stuff they know little to nothing about.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, MUFC said:

The bold is a good point. But for me this is what happens when people solely rely on mainstream media. People are too lazy in this day and age to research information. 

I'd disagree with that mate. I think people do more research into these things than they use to. And I'm pretty certain there are studies that show people are more educated in world affairs than they use to be 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, RondónEFC said:

This is the main sticking point for me with some of the whataboutery in this thread. People need to accept that some land in the majority of the population that get their news from what's on the television and that when stuff like Yemen and arms sales get mentioned in this thread, it's the first many have heard of it. By all means shit on the media for that but there's no need for us to be having pops at each other over it and calling people hypocrites or inconsistent for not having opinions on stuff they know little to nothing about.

I do think though as I have said that some people dont care about countries in africa even when they do know. I'm not saying you are one of them because I know you do care but some people dont. 

[Reluctant Striker]

30 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

So I'm  not that educated on the subject. How is Putin justifying the invasion? From what I have read and heard there are people in Ukraine who wanted to stay with russia and the Soviet union. Those people are genrally in certain regions of russia and Putin originally said he was trying to free those areas from Ukraine. That was his justification for invading crimea.  So what is his justification for taking the whole country when they don't want to be part of russia? From what I can gather he says Ukraine must not become part of nato. So it seems as if it is about power and influence really. He thinks that ukaraine should be part of russia or at least controlled by russia? 

I'm not an expert, but I'd suggest a good place to start is the RT News channel, if you receive it. It does have a neutral to pro-Russian slant of anaysis, which I'd noticed during Covid. I have taken a few brief looks recently for the sort of reason you seem to be asking for details.

Right now it has plenty of translated Putin rather Boris, Biden or various western world representatives. The leaders of Ukraine are, according to Putin, on Russian state TV addresses; drug addicts & nazi's. Which I think further translates as being pro Europe rather than pro Russia. Which I believe is opposite to the mutal neighbour Belarus leader & Ukraine's own political opposition.

I have heard 1 brief mention on mainstream news channels that Europe or Russia leanings has been a key political divide for many years in Ukraine & similar countries.

And Putin further accuses the Ukraine leaders of genocide. Which in the west we know to be patently untrue.

It does perhaps seem a test of his grip of Russia itself. But NATO was Russia's cold war enemy. I guess to some portion of Russians, people wanting to join up would seem like they are on drugs. Or at least being offensively/aggressively anti Russia. And it is, purely pragmatically, a somewhat limited number of nations NATO applies to.

I can sadly imagine Putins messages having some traction in a huge dictatorship that sees its past enemies attracting support.

[MUFC]

7 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

I'd disagree with that mate. I think people do more research into these things than they use to. And I'm pretty certain there are studies that show people are more educated in world affairs than they use to be 

Not sure about studies but I'm talking about life experience. As in first hand, most people I've spoken to in life regarding current affairs. They just quote from mainstream papers and news channels. That's just my first hand experience. 

[MUFC]

15 minutes ago, RondónEFC said:

This is the main sticking point for me with some of the whataboutery in this thread. People need to accept that some land in the majority of the population that get their news from what's on the television and that when stuff like Yemen and arms sales get mentioned in this thread, it's the first many have heard of it. By all means shit on the media for that but there's no need for us to be having pops at each other over it and calling people hypocrites or inconsistent for not having opinions on stuff they know little to nothing about.

I think it's world leaders and the media who are the hypocrites, not any of us. I'm glad world leaders and people are making an issue of what Russia are doing. But for me, when Israel regularly bombs the shit out of Gaza, there is never the same flair for sanctions etc. As Stan mentioned, Ukraine flags are fine but flags for Palestine received stick.

Again this isn't everyday people like you  and me, but is more down to leaders and the media. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, MUFC said:

Not sure about studies but I'm talking about life experience. As in first hand, most people I've spoken to in life regarding current affairs. They just quote from mainstream papers and news channels. That's just my first hand experience. 

Yeah but people have always  been like that. Like I said people are generally more educated on these things than they use to be. Studies are more accurate than personal experience as we tend to forget things that dont match up to our pre conceived perceptions. 

[Spike]

6 hours ago, RondónEFC said:

Are you going to explain then?

I wasn’t because I had been drinking. You seem to think that I have an issue with defining what war crimes are, I don’t. I have an issue with the hypocrisy of it, the nature of war and the defining of the crimes are mutually exclusive there can be and never will be a war that is without war crimes, for both combatants. You keep bringing up bombing hospitals or whatever but that isn’t the only crime that can be and will be committed. The first hypocrisy is the loser being the only one punished, even then they are largely not, the second hypocrisy is they are charged by those guilty of the same atrocities, sometimes using a kangaroo court - another war crime.  Countries try to actively subvert the ICC and even if they didn’t who is holding them accountable? How many crimes are unreported and unpunished? It is nice to say things like ‘rape is a war crime’ but it still happens en masse, an estimated 200,000 German women were raped by American GIs alone, we know that is evil, they know that is evil but that is by definition a war crime, and what is the result? War creates a culture of violence and impunity. I will never stray from the idea the war is an implicit breaking of all war crimes. 

All war is a crime.

[Michael]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

As sad as it is what's happening. The sad fact is it happens all the time. As @Devil-Dick Willie would probably say if this was some country in africa no one would care. But because it affects us we do. I do agree with countries boycotting russia. But we dont do it with all the countries that invade others because it's not in our interest 

I beg to differ mate. The reason why what is happening in Ukraine is getting so much coverage, is because Europe's two largest nations are at war with each other, with Russia having invaded Ukraine. Russia has one of the world's strongest militaries and they have invaded Ukraine using tanks, ships, helicopters and fighter jets. They have bombed Ukraine on such a large scale, that this is an unprecedented attack in recent history. 

If Russia for example went and did the exact same to Nigeria, believe you me, there would be equal outrage and condemnation around the world. Yes there is obviously some importance placed on the fact that this war is being fought in Europe on our door step, but be in no doubt that the main reason it is getting so much coverage is because of the scale of the attack/invasion. Furthermore, the fact that the Russian regime(Putin) have shown that they are willing to undertake this war, demonstrates that they are not only a serious threat to Ukraine, but also to the wider world.

[Waylander]

1 minute ago, Michael said:

I beg to differ mate. The reason why what is happening in Ukraine is getting so much coverage, is because Europe's two largest nations are at war with each other, with Russia having invaded Ukraine. Russia has one of the world's strongest militaries and they have invaded Ukraine using tanks, ships, helicopters and fighter jets. They have bombed Ukraine on such a large scale, that this is an unprecedented attack in recent history. 

If Russia for example went and did the exact same to Nigeria, believe you me, there would be equal outrage and condemnation around the world. Yes there is obviously some importance placed on the fact that this war is being fought in Europe on our door step, but be in no doubt that the main reason it is getting so much coverage is because of the scale of the attack/invasion. Furthermore, the fact that the Russian regime(Putin) have shown that they are willing to undertake this war, demonstrates that they are not only a serious threat to Ukraine, but also to the wider world.

When Bush and Blair launched their military missions in the Middle East, Bush said,

'You are either with us or against us,'

Putin has allegedly warned Finland and Sweden about becoming NATO members saying that would be a declaration of war.

Turkey tried to close the Hellespont, the access to the Black Sea and Russian missile ships made threats so they were re-opened.

Israel virtue signalled support for Ukraine and Russia reminded them that even if they build on the Golan heights they are building on occupied Syrian land. 

France has seized a Russian ship in the Atlantic belonging to a Russian oligarch.

So we have a very volatile situation brewing.

 

 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Michael said:

I beg to differ mate. The reason why what is happening in Ukraine is getting so much coverage, is because Europe's two largest nations are at war with each other, with Russia having invaded Ukraine. Russia has one of the world's strongest militaries and they have invaded Ukraine using tanks, ships, helicopters and fighter jets. They have bombed Ukraine on such a large scale, that this is an unprecedented attack in recent history. 

If Russia for example went and did the exact same to Nigeria, believe you me, there would be equal outrage and condemnation around the world. Yes there is obviously some importance placed on the fact that this war is being fought in Europe on our door step, but be in no doubt that the main reason it is getting so much coverage is because of the scale of the attack/invasion. Furthermore, the fact that the Russian regime(Putin) have shown that they are willing to undertake this war, demonstrates that they are not only a serious threat to Ukraine, but also to the wider world.

I think what I have said has been misinterpreted. Obviously this will get more media coverage because it is two large European  countries at war.

I'm just pointing out that some people wouldn't care if an African country invaded another one. Because they dont care about African people. 

[Fairy In Boots]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

So I'm  not that educated on the subject. How is Putin justifying the invasion? From what I have read and heard there are people in Ukraine who wanted to stay with russia and the Soviet union. Those people are genrally in certain regions of russia and Putin originally said he was trying to free those areas from Ukraine. That was his justification for invading crimea.  So what is his justification for taking the whole country when they don't want to be part of russia? From what I can gather he says Ukraine must not become part of nato. So it seems as if it is about power and influence really. He thinks that ukaraine should be part of russia or at least controlled by russia? 

Long story short it’s about NATO and Ukraine joining NATO. NATO is effectively ran by the US, and a military alliance. If UKraine joins NATO it means the yanks can put troops on his border, Putin is not having it. Think Cuban middle crisis 2.0 except Kennedy had a brain and this senile old man is a front for the real people in power over in Washington the warmongering defence contractors. 
 

He’s not justified invading a sovereign nation but he’s been provoked by the impeding tanks on his lawn. Mexico for example can’t do fuck all with American approval, Russia wants the same from Belarus/Ukraine etc