UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Stan]

1 minute ago, LFCMike said:

 

He knows January onwards with Brexit is gonna be one epic disaster so is jumping off the train before it heads for the end of the track... 

[RandoEFC+]

Ultimately makes no difference. With or without him in Downing Street, Brexit is still going to be a shambles and when it's actually happened properly, the process of all the Leavers slowly admitting it was a bad idea will begin. There's no point in celebrating this news because the damage is done.

My main take away is why did they move heaven and earth to protect him after Barnard Castle, inflicting huge damage on themselves and the whole Conservative party, for the sake of a few months? Maybe he's been carrying out some vital work, maybe he was there to fire and hire a bunch of big names in Whitehall, they've certainly done that, but it's not like he's had time to put some new philosophy in place, it looks more like he's just torn up what was there and fucked off. Or maybe it's just more evidence that this government is incapable of seeing the big picture beyond what's good for them today. Ironic if so after the big deal was made about bringing Cummings and all his super forecasters into the heart of government.

[Dr. Gonzo]

20 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Ultimately makes no difference. With or without him in Downing Street, Brexit is still going to be a shambles and when it's actually happened properly, the process of all the Leavers slowly admitting it was a bad idea will begin. There's no point in celebrating this news because the damage is done.

My main take away is why did they move heaven and earth to protect him after Barnard Castle, inflicting huge damage on themselves and the whole Conservative party, for the sake of a few months? Maybe he's been carrying out some vital work, maybe he was there to fire and hire a bunch of big names in Whitehall, they've certainly done that, but it's not like he's had time to put some new philosophy in place, it looks more like he's just torn up what was there and fucked off. Or maybe it's just more evidence that this government is incapable of seeing the big picture beyond what's good for them today. Ironic if so after the big deal was made about bringing Cummings and all his super forecasters into the heart of government.

I agree with you on pretty much everything you’ve said... other than we’ll slowly start to see people admit leaving was a bad idea.

They will point fingers EVERYWHERE else before they admit they steered the country onto the path it’s on.

I suspect the EU will be a bigger scapegoat than it ever was with us as a member.

[RandoEFC+]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I agree with you on pretty much everything you’ve said... other than we’ll slowly start to see people admit leaving was a bad idea.

They will point fingers EVERYWHERE else before they admit they steered the country onto the path it’s on.

I suspect the EU will be a bigger scapegoat than it ever was with us as a member.

Some of them will keep fighting it, but most of them will get there eventually. Got to have faith. We just saw Trump lose when a year ago it looked like he'd comfortably win a second term. In fact the majority opinion for quite some time has been comfortably in favour of people saying that Brexit was a mistake. It was narrow enough for the Tories to still win the last election but the gap has grown over this year.

[Stan]

 

 

 

[RandoEFC+]

Is that what it looks like now!?

[Stan]

8 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Is that what it looks like now!?

Wouldn't surprise me. Weather down south has been utter shite since start of the day.

[Danny]

Really don’t get the widespread support for Corbyn, he was the head of a main political party that allowed anti-semitism to run rife, he was literally the head of systemic racism within a sector of British politics. Racism comes from systemic oppression and he was the head of a system that allowed anti-semitism, refused to act swiftly and promptly, just let it carry on. That makes him a massive, massive cunt regardless of the other good things he’s done in his life.

[RandoEFC+]

Unless it's proved that he himself was anti-semitic after he retracted his comments about the EHRC report, I don't think you can justify leaving him out of the party. In or out, Labour just need to move on and get on with it.

[Inverted]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/18/jeremy-corbyn-refused-labour-whip-despite-having-suspension-lifted

 

I am clapping and crying in relief now that Sir Keith has shown he is willing to intervene so rigourously in the party disciplinary process to punish Jeremy Corbyn for his failure to prevent political intervention in the party disciplinary process.

[Bluewolf]

So much laughter from this.... 

This during PMQ's... Johnson refusing to back down on the amount of wasted tax payer money being spent to secure PPE then this came up... 

Meanwhile the PM was forced to defend his comments this week to MPs, calling Scottish devolution a “disaster”.

Mr Johnson replied: "I think what has unquestionably been a disaster is the way in which the Scottish National Party have taken and used devolution as means not to improve the lives of their constituents, not to address their health concerns, not to improve education in Scotland, but constantly - and I know this is actually a point of view that is shared by (Sir Keir Starmer) - but constantly to campaign for the break-up of our country.

"To turn devolution, otherwise a sound policy for which I myself personally benefited when I was running London - but turn devolution into a mission to break up the UK.

"That, in my view, would be a disaster."

But Sir Keir hit back: “The single biggest threat to the future of the United Kingdom is the Prime Minister every time he opens his mouth".

[RandoEFC+]

 

[Stan]

Also concluded that she is/was a bully, intentional or not.

Basically, she's just not a very nice character at all and generally does come across as quite a callous and toxic person.

[6666]

Increase of £16.5b in "defence" spending spread over the next four years. Funny how these nationalist cunts always find money to pour into the military.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

37 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Increase of £16.5b in "defence" spending spread over the next four years. Funny how these nationalist cunts always find money to pour into the military.

Hopefully it at least works.

Before our last federal election in 2019, the liberal government who looked nailed on to get the arse, in their last days intentionally tied up billions in USELESS defense contracts, just so Labor couldn't spend the money productively on Health and Education  (because education is the enemy of the right wing nationalist.)

And oops they got re elected. 

[RandoEFC+]

8 hours ago, 6666 said:

Increase of £16.5b in "defence" spending spread over the next four years. Funny how these nationalist cunts always find money to pour into the military.

Then announced this morning that there's a pay freeze for the public sector, including all of the health workers who worked through the pandemic, and the rest. 

[Honey Honey]

48 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Then announced this morning that there's a pay freeze for the public sector, including all of the health workers who worked through the pandemic, and the rest. 

Announcement is later today. NHS expected to be exempt. Given what is going on in the private sector with job insecurity, job losses, closed down businesses, collapsed revenue and furlough they most likely believe they will easily survive this in polling and public attitudes.

[Stan]

12 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

 

 

12 hours ago, Stan said:

Also concluded that she is/was a bully, intentional or not.

Basically, she's just not a very nice character at all and generally does come across as quite a callous and toxic person.

Anti-bullying week as well this week 

[RandoEFC+]

2 hours ago, Steve Bruce Almighty said:

Announcement is later today. NHS expected to be exempt. Given what is going on in the private sector with job insecurity, job losses, closed down businesses, collapsed revenue and furlough they most likely believe they will easily survive this in polling and public attitudes.

My response to the public sector pay freeze on its own is that actually, it's fair enough, especially if the NHS is exempt. I'm obviously biased on this but I do think the education sector should be exempt as well. We had to learn how to teach kids through the internet overnight in March, got slated for it if we didn't get it right immediately, then were asked to decide which of our exam students should get certain qualifications without sitting an exam, had our professional judgement slated (unless you work at Eton in which case the grades you provided were definitely accurate) until the cabinet did their u-turn, and have had to completely reinvent the logistics of running a school and timetabling to keep them open after the summer and through this second lockdown. Luckily for me, I'm not under the direct jurisdiction of the UK government's public sector pay policy so financially it doesn't impact me, but that's not what I'm arsed about, it's the disrespect of the sacrifices made by the public sector over the past year. Yes, we're very lucky to have the job security where thousands of others have been made redundant, but apart from the front doorstep clap virtue signalling, any hopes that government and public attitudes towards public sector workers would be improved after seeing how badly the private sector falls to pieces without hospitals, schools, policing, etc., has been sadly misplaced. Time to buckle up for another decade of teachers being labelled Antifa activists by mainstream newspapers with comments like "those that can, do, those that can't, teach" by red-faced morons who wouldn't last an hour in a classroom themselves.

Anyway, back to the pay-freeze, all of this furlough money has to come from somewhere, it's just the reality of the economics behind this thing. There will be complaining but due to the nature of most health, education and other public sector workers, I think most of us will understand that we need to accept this as a part of doing our bit to get the country out of debt after all of the spending this year. I get it, but it's the timing again. The amount they've announced in extra spending on the defence budget just yesterday as some sort of show of strength, whether that's literal military strength or "look how much I'm investing in our country" financial strength, now looks ridiculous if they're going to come out the next day and say "sorry public sector, we all have to make sacrifices in these difficult times, we just don't have enough in the treasury to give you the annual pay rise this year". You can't have it both ways without drawing criticism but yes, they'll probably get away with it because 50% or more of the print media will say nothing on the matter and the public are so well trained nowadays to see everything through the lens of "us vs them" that there won't be many outside the public sector who will bat an eyelid at the news.

[RandoEFC+]

And on Patel, who has already been sacked from government once for breaking the ministerial code, who has now broken the ministerial code again according to the independent review, but not of course according to Boris Johnson, the question has to become: What do you actually have to do as a part of this government to face some sort of consequence?

Cummings breaks lockdown rules and undermines the public health strategy mid-pandemic? Acceptable.

Jenrick takes a bribe from Tory donor Desmond to save him millions on his planning project? Acceptable.

Williamson completely bungles the primary school reopening project back in June then completely bungles the exam results in the summer? Acceptable.

Bullying your underlings in the Home Office? Acceptable but you get a written warning for this one.

Refer to Johnson's missus as "Princess Nut Nuts"? Out on your arse.

[Stan]

9 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

And on Patel, who has already been sacked from government once for breaking the ministerial code, who has now broken the ministerial code again according to the independent review, but not of course according to Boris Johnson, the question has to become: What do you actually have to do as a part of this government to face some sort of consequence?

Cummings breaks lockdown rules and undermines the public health strategy mid-pandemic? Acceptable.

Jenrick takes a bribe from Tory donor Desmond to save him millions on his planning project? Acceptable.

Williamson completely bungles the primary school reopening project back in June then completely bungles the exam results in the summer? Acceptable.

Bullying your underlings in the Home Office? Acceptable but you get a written warning for this one.

Refer to Johnson's missus as "Princess Nut Nuts"? Out on your arse.

As Transport Secretary, appoint a freight company that owns no ships for a no-deal Brexit ferry contract? Acceptable and then be awarded a £100k/y advisory role to port owners. 

[The Artful Dodger]

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

My response to the public sector pay freeze on its own is that actually, it's fair enough, especially if the NHS is exempt. I'm obviously biased on this but I do think the education sector should be exempt as well. We had to learn how to teach kids through the internet overnight in March, got slated for it if we didn't get it right immediately, then were asked to decide which of our exam students should get certain qualifications without sitting an exam, had our professional judgement slated (unless you work at Eton in which case the grades you provided were definitely accurate) until the cabinet did their u-turn, and have had to completely reinvent the logistics of running a school and timetabling to keep them open after the summer and through this second lockdown. Luckily for me, I'm not under the direct jurisdiction of the UK government's public sector pay policy so financially it doesn't impact me, but that's not what I'm arsed about, it's the disrespect of the sacrifices made by the public sector over the past year. Yes, we're very lucky to have the job security where thousands of others have been made redundant, but apart from the front doorstep clap virtue signalling, any hopes that government and public attitudes towards public sector workers would be improved after seeing how badly the private sector falls to pieces without hospitals, schools, policing, etc., has been sadly misplaced. Time to buckle up for another decade of teachers being labelled Antifa activists by mainstream newspapers with comments like "those that can, do, those that can't, teach" by red-faced morons who wouldn't last an hour in a classroom themselves.

Anyway, back to the pay-freeze, all of this furlough money has to come from somewhere, it's just the reality of the economics behind this thing. There will be complaining but due to the nature of most health, education and other public sector workers, I think most of us will understand that we need to accept this as a part of doing our bit to get the country out of debt after all of the spending this year. I get it, but it's the timing again. The amount they've announced in extra spending on the defence budget just yesterday as some sort of show of strength, whether that's literal military strength or "look how much I'm investing in our country" financial strength, now looks ridiculous if they're going to come out the next day and say "sorry public sector, we all have to make sacrifices in these difficult times, we just don't have enough in the treasury to give you the annual pay rise this year". You can't have it both ways without drawing criticism but yes, they'll probably get away with it because 50% or more of the print media will say nothing on the matter and the public are so well trained nowadays to see everything through the lens of "us vs them" that there won't be many outside the public sector who will bat an eyelid at the news.

Problem is that a lot of public sectory pay has been effectively frozen for years, in fact in real terms civil servants have taken pay cuts. This is just classic turning on the public sector because the private sector is going through a tough area.

The answer is clearly that income tax must rise for all but the lowest earners. I'd raise income tax to a standard 25% and then 50% for those over 50k. This would work. People just won't do it though, even many on the left baulk at actually raising tax. Even the supposedly 'marxist, red, commie' Corbyn didn't actually outright propose tax rises in his last manifesto. That's how unpalatable it is. I am far from a high earner but extra 30-50quid a month is affordable, we'd sort the debt out in no time.

Edited November 20, 2020 by The Artful Dodger

[RandoEFC+]

46 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Problem is that a lot of public sectory pay has been effectively frozen for years, in fact in real terms civil servants have taken pay cuts. This is just classic turning on the public sector because the private sector is going through a tough area.

The answer is clearly that income tax must rise for all but the lowest earners. I'd raise income tax to a standard 25% and then 50% for those over 50k. This would work. People just won't do it though, even many on the left baulk at actually raising tax. Even the supposedly 'marxist, red, commie' Corbyn didn't actually outright propose tax rises in his last manifesto. That's how unpalatable it is. I am far from a high earner but extra 30-50quid a month is affordable, we'd sort the debt out in no time.

As much as I've reached a point of being pretty unsympathetic towards those dwelling on Corbyn's leadership as some sort of "days of yore", he and his team did come the closest to what I've ever seen towards shifting that discourse. 99% of the public have no idea how commonplace some of the policies he was proposing are across Europe and the world. People don't even know what socialism means in this country and how completely different it is to communism/marxism because anything that involves wealth redistribution in this country has Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Express screaming in unison about communism and the nasty Labour Party stealing your money.

One of the standout moments of the election last year was the bloke on Question Time who was absolutely furious that his tax was increasing. He said Labour were lying because tax would only increase for the top 5% of earners, might even have been 1%. The guy said he was on £80,000 a year or something, he was in the top 5% and he was absolutely convinced that he couldn't possibly be. A huge part of the nation has been convinced that everyone else is better off than them.

It does my head in when people argue that people who make millions deserve to make millions. You can argue that they do, but they don't need to keep 70% instead of 68% and it's a mentality I'll never understand thinking that those people keeping more of their salary for the sake of making it a meritocracy is more important than making sure that those who come from the most unfortunate backgrounds at least don't have to fork out their earnings for education and healthcare which should be perceived as a basic right in a developed country like the UK.

[Honey Honey]

6 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Anyway, back to the pay-freeze, all of this furlough money has to come from somewhere, it's just the reality of the economics behind this thing. There will be complaining but due to the nature of most health, education and other public sector workers, I think most of us will understand that we need to accept this as a part of doing our bit to get the country out of debt after all of the spending this year. I get it, but it's the timing again. The amount they've announced in extra spending on the defence budget just yesterday as some sort of show of strength, whether that's literal military strength or "look how much I'm investing in our country" financial strength, now looks ridiculous if they're going to come out the next day and say "sorry public sector, we all have to make sacrifices in these difficult times, we just don't have enough in the treasury to give you the annual pay rise this year". You can't have it both ways without drawing criticism but yes, they'll probably get away with it because 50% or more of the print media will say nothing on the matter and the public are so well trained nowadays to see everything through the lens of "us vs them" that there won't be many outside the public sector who will bat an eyelid at the news.

Don't ever let them tell you its an economic decision. Unless they can argue the fiscal multiplication of other investments is greater than public sector pay then any pay freeze at a time of increased spending for any other budget is most likely philosophical. Economics can be used to feed a political philosophy however seen fit.

At the route of all of this is a philosophical view of the public sector. I'm not talking full blown libertarianism, rather a softer version, attitudes towards what is perceived as public sector "largesse". 

The BBC printed today that public sector pay is 7% higher than private sector pay. Thats a nice figure to try and justify a pay freeze but some public sector careers are a cul-de-sac. What I mean is once you're in there's no promotion, or very few opportunities for promotion, so a pay rise is all you have. The job role doesn't move much. The private sector, or specifically the service sector economy of cities, London in particular is a market place rather than a cul-de-sac, in a market place you sell yourself to the highest bidder. So people move jobs, roles, organisations freely. That's their pay rise. Actual private sector pay rises for being in the same role in most businesses is far worse than the public sector. Especially if you aren't unionised.

Tax doesnt pay for spend at the national level. It hasn't for a while. Recent theories are that it is a means to control inflation. We are now closing in on £1trn that the Bank of England has e-printed and given to the state for spending. The Cameron-Osborne government said £500bn ago it had to stop. Unless we have a miracle boom the debt the state has won't fall. To fall tax revenue needs to exceed both expenditure and annual debt interest payments. Paying down Bank of England debt means taking money out of the economy. With current inflation levels that will stunt growth at best, cause a recession at worst. 

Public sector can definitely have a pay rise, it won't get it for philosophical reasons, or at best what might be called economic conservativism, which in real English means shitting yourself that it might rain one day. 

You can argue the opposite, that a pay rise is also philosophical. Certainly giving someone more pay for a role in a pandemic is not an economic choice either.

One of my personal biggest gripes with the Corbyn-McDonnell era is their inability to repaint the picture on economic choice. They pretty much gifted the argument to the Conservative Party. 

[Bluewolf]

6 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

And on Patel, who has already been sacked from government once for breaking the ministerial code, who has now broken the ministerial code again according to the independent review, but not of course according to Boris Johnson, the question has to become: What do you actually have to do as a part of this government to face some sort of consequence?

Cummings breaks lockdown rules and undermines the public health strategy mid-pandemic? Acceptable.

Jenrick takes a bribe from Tory donor Desmond to save him millions on his planning project? Acceptable.

Williamson completely bungles the primary school reopening project back in June then completely bungles the exam results in the summer? Acceptable.

Bullying your underlings in the Home Office? Acceptable but you get a written warning for this one.

Refer to Johnson's missus as "Princess Nut Nuts"? Out on your arse.

And to quote the letter from his Housemaster at Eton... 

Boris sometimes seems affronted when criticised for what amounts to a gross failure of responsibility (and surprised at the same time that he was not appointed Captain of the School for next half): I think he honestly believes that it is churlish of us not to regard him as an exception, one who should be free of the network of obligation which binds everyone else.”