6666 1,310 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 On 09/11/2022 at 01:13, Spike said: ‘Pep never took a challenge’ is consistently the stupidest thing I’ve read from football fans. It's a fair thing to point out to be honest. A great manager but winning the league with Man City is hardly a big achievement. Same with Bayern. Not as extreme as winning the league with PSG but winning with the obvious favourites is hardly something to shout about. And being able to spend £100m on a squad player and not care if it works puts Man City in a separate category to other clubs. Doesn't mean he's not a great manager but you can't just pretend that he doesn't have a bigger advantage than every other manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,100 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 10 minutes ago, 6666 said: It's a fair thing to point out to be honest. A great manager but winning the league with Man City is hardly a big achievement. Same with Bayern. Not as extreme as winning the league with PSG but winning with the obvious favourites is hardly something to shout about. And being able to spend £100m on a squad player and not care if it works puts Man City in a separate category to other clubs. Doesn't mean he's not a great manager but you can't just pretend that he doesn't have a bigger advantage than every other manager. I fundamentally disagree. These clubs sack managers often and expect an extremely high level of play and success. These are the sort of jobs that require highest degree of finesse and respect to achieve success, otherwise failure comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFCMadLad 2,080 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 10 minutes ago, Spike said: I fundamentally disagree. These clubs sack managers often and expect an extremely high level of play and success. These are the sort of jobs that require highest degree of finesse and respect to achieve success, otherwise failure comes. Like in the Champions League? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero 5,265 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 41 minutes ago, 6666 said: It's a fair thing to point out to be honest. A great manager but winning the league with Man City is hardly a big achievement. Same with Bayern. Not as extreme as winning the league with PSG but winning with the obvious favourites is hardly something to shout about. And being able to spend £100m on a squad player and not care if it works puts Man City in a separate category to other clubs. Doesn't mean he's not a great manager but you can't just pretend that he doesn't have a bigger advantage than every other manager. It's the sustained success which makes it a great achievement. City have won 4 League titles in 5 years and shit ton of domestic cups whilst playing some of the best football this league has ever seen. The Bundesliga had a different winner every other season before Pep, he then helped establish the foundation at Bayern which has seen them win league title after league title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,100 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 27 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said: Like in the Champions League? I know you think this is a clever gotcha moment, but yes I agree, anything but a win is a failure. You just further my point, if it's so easy why doesn't Man City win it every single time? Because it isn't easy and is a monumental achievement for any team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFCMadLad 2,080 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 4 minutes ago, Spike said: I know you think this is a clever gotcha moment, but yes I agree, anything but a win is a failure. You just further my point, if it's so easy why doesn't Man City win it every single time? Because it isn't easy and is a monumental achievement for any team. I'm not saying he's not a good manager mate, he obviously is. I'm just saying that leading Bayern (the richest and most dominant club in its country) and City (the richest and most dominant club in its country) is hardly some massive challeng that has seen Pep really test himself. He was brought to both clubs to win the Champions League when all said and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,100 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 Just now, LFCMadLad said: I'm not saying he's not a good manager mate, he obviously is. I'm just saying that leading Bayern (the richest and most dominant club in its country) and City (the richest and most dominant club in its country) is hardly some massive challeng that has seen Pep really test himself. He was brought to both clubs to win the Champions League when all said and done. How isn't it a challenge? You couldn't do it, I can't do it, 99.9999% of people can't do it. If it's so easy why do they cycle through managers? Why are they firing people so often? It's expected to beat the best teams in the world consistently, there is nothing easy about that. It's the relative nature, Southampton is a difficult job but the expectation of what success is different from what the expectations are at Bayern or Manchester City, five losses in a row would spell a sacking at the later two, but it possibly wouldn't at Southampton. The expectation of beating Jurgen Klopp's Liverpool twice a season is much more difficult than the expectation of not being relegated. What is a challenge? Winning the league with an underdog? The exact achievement that is so rare it happened once in over 30 years? Why is Guardiola the only manager that is requested to take a 'challenge'? I'd say turning Barcelona from the distant second best club in Spain with an over-the-hill squad and transforming the footballing landscape while assembling the greatest team of all time is a challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,180 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Spike said: The exact achievement that is so rare it happened once in over 30 years? Doesn't that depend on perspective? Arsenal were probably underdogs compared to Man Utd those years where Wenger was challenging Ferguson's dominance. The year we won it, City were easy favourites because City are/should be favourites every year. I don't think Guardiola's the only manager that's required to take a challenge... it's criticism that's been leveled at quite a few other managers tbh, like Mourinho, Conte... hell even Simeone, and he's with a club that perspective could have some call him an "underdog." But until his football starts running stale and he starts having issues with modern football - why would he take on a bigger challenge? He'd get a job at any club he'd want to in the world - why would he go to one that doesn't have endless resources, where he'd get paid less and have a worse overall squad and less money to spend each year? He's obviously a great manager, but tbh I think the expectation for them is to win every tournament they're in each year... so I don't really think it's a remarkable achievement when they win things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6666 1,310 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 An easier job doesn't mean a job that doesn't need doing. So of course any random fucker won't be able to come in and do it. It's much easier for Pep to do what he's done with Man City than with any other club in the league. By a long way. You can't disagree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,100 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 1 minute ago, 6666 said: An easier job doesn't mean a job that doesn't need doing. It's much easier for Pep to do what he's done with Man City than with any other club in the league. By a long way. You can't disagree with that. That isn't the argument. The argument is that is 'isn't a challenge', I and disagree with that. I don't understand how in any capacity coaching the club with the most expectations is anything but a challenge. 4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Doesn't that depend on perspective? Arsenal were probably underdogs compared to Man Utd those years where Wenger was challenging Ferguson's dominance. The year we won it, City were easy favourites because City are/should be favourites every year. I don't think Guardiola's the only manager that's required to take a challenge... it's criticism that's been leveled at quite a few other managers tbh, like Mourinho, Conte... hell even Simeone, and he's with a club that perspective could have some call him an "underdog." But until his football starts running stale and he starts having issues with modern football - why would he take on a bigger challenge? He'd get a job at any club he'd want to in the world - why would he go to one that doesn't have endless resources, where he'd get paid less and have a worse overall squad and less money to spend each year? He's obviously a great manager, but tbh I think the expectation for them is to win every tournament they're in each year... so I don't really think it's a remarkable achievement when they win things. The argument isn't about winning things. I never said it wasn't easier to win the league with ManCity compared to a team like Wolverhampton but I said that managing Man City is incredibly difficult and a challenge. The challenge isn't just winning the league, it's managing a squad of superstars, performing at a consistent high level, beating the best teams in the world, beating the best managers in the world. Coaching a club like Bayern Munich isn't something one can just walk into, one has to be one of the best in the world because it is an incredibly demanding job and is incredibly difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,180 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, Spike said: The argument isn't about winning things. Nah, it definitely is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,100 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Nah, it definitely is It really isn't. These clubs cycle through managers that win trophies yet don't meet the standards of what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,180 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, Spike said: It really isn't. These clubs cycle through managers that win trophies yet don't meet the standards of what they want. Other than Real Madrid... who do that, only to turn back to the managers that do win trophies... I'm not sure that's really true. Maybe PSG... but that's really just PSG sacking off managers for not winning the CL. City are the only one who don't really do that and it's because they're combining endless pits of money with stability to hope it eventually lands them the CL. And I wouldn't exactly say PSG are well run. If Pep spent 3 years at Bayern Munich without winning the league, he'd never have had the City job. If he'd spent all this time at City just coming in second place, I don't think he'd have his job at all. These clubs are expecting them to win things and win things regularly. They wouldn't keep giving him chances to win the CL if he wasn't regularly delivering other expected titles to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,100 Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Other than Real Madrid... who do that, only to turn back to the managers that do win trophies... I'm not sure that's really true. Maybe PSG... but that's really just PSG sacking off managers for not winning the CL. City are the only one who don't really do that and it's because they're combining endless pits of money with stability to hope it eventually lands them the CL. And I wouldn't exactly say PSG are well run. If Pep spent 3 years at Bayern Munich without winning the league, he'd never have had the City job. If he'd spent all this time at City just coming in second place, I don't think he'd have his job at all. These clubs are expecting them to win things and win things regularly. They wouldn't keep giving him chances to win the CL if he wasn't regularly delivering other expected titles to them. That is why I said winning the league is the bare minimum, they get sacked for other reasons, play not to standard, bad lockeroom, bad rapport with the media, that is why these clubs are a challenge because they demand a such a high level of excellence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Viva la FCB+ 2,547 Posted November 11, 2022 Subscriber Share Posted November 11, 2022 Spikes bang on imo. Bayern fired Niko Kovac the season after winning a domestic double. He was clearly out of his depth but the squad was talented enough to win silverware anyways. I think we were sitting 6th ish? in the league the following season if memory serves before he got axed and Hansi Flick took over... the rest is history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush 296 Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 I prefer the idea of richer owners buying smaller clubs around Europe creating more competition, the bundesliga needs more perennial rivals that can match the financial clout, same in Spain and Italy etc. Liverpool are rich, they just have more spend conscientious owners, certainly more so than Man United and Chelsea who just blow money and moan about not having enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,367 Posted November 11, 2022 Author Administrator Share Posted November 11, 2022 8 hours ago, Viva la FCB said: Spikes bang on imo. Bayern fired Niko Kovac the season after winning a domestic double. He was clearly out of his depth but the squad was talented enough to win silverware anyways. I think we were sitting 6th ish? in the league the following season if memory serves before he got axed and Hansi Flick took over... the rest is history. Agree with @Spike too. It's not to say other managers don't have challenges at smaller clubs, or clubs with far less money. But that also doesn't mean there isn't a challenge for Pep, or whoever takes on a job at Bayern, Man City, PSG. The challenge in itself is to be top of the game almost 100% of the time, so that they do continue winning trophies. Arguably made easier with money, but then there's still that level of 'challenge' to keep delivering when you can't rely on the excuse that you were never given help. The challenge for Pep at these clubs was to be successful but even more to the point, remain successful and maintain that astronomical level of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,180 Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 The guy who owns Atalanta is reportedly interested in buying us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Blue 1,898 Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 18 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said: If Pep spent 3 years at Bayern Munich without winning the league, he'd never have had the City job. If he'd spent all this time at City just coming in second place, I don't think he'd have his job at all. These clubs are expecting them to win things and win things regularly. This is not true, think you forgot my post on the old forum when i told you what year and transfer window Pep would join City, he had an agreement in place the year we appointed Pelligrini who was just a caretaker for Pep's arrival while we put everything in place he wanted. De Bruyne was Pep's first City signing while he was still at Munich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,180 Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 18 minutes ago, Happy Blue said: This is not true, think you forgot my post on the old forum when i told you what year and transfer window Pep would join City, he had an agreement in place the year we appointed Pelligrini who was just a caretaker for Pep's arrival while we put everything in place he wanted. De Bruyne was Pep's first City signing while he was still at Munich Bet if he was super shit at Munich City would have backed the fuck out of the deal though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Mel81x+ 3,612 Posted November 11, 2022 Subscriber Share Posted November 11, 2022 12 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Bet if he was super shit at Munich City would have backed the fuck out of the deal though. With the way they were spending in the initial years trying to find the right person to get them CL success you'd imagine they might have still gone with Pep and given him the team he wanted to have just to recreate the success he had at Barcelona. He has not come close with any project afterwards and that's because he has some stellar players but he doesn't have that one player who can link it all together irrespective of what competition you put him in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Blue 1,898 Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 22 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Bet if he was super shit at Munich City would have backed the fuck out of the deal though. Well it was only a verbal agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush 296 Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said: The guy who owns Atalanta is reportedly interested in buying us. BAIN Capital, an investment company that was involved in the "state capture" corruption debacle in South Africa, they helped facilitate money laundering and other forms of asset washing. 160bn is nice though, can buy a few leagues with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,180 Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 4 minutes ago, OrangeKhrush said: BAIN Capital, an investment company that was involved in the "state capture" corruption debacle in South Africa, they helped facilitate money laundering and other forms of asset washing. 160bn is nice though, can buy a few leagues with that. Isn't BAIN capital Mitt Romney's company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush 296 Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 47 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Isn't BAIN capital Mitt Romney's company? it's owned by some pagliuca guy who owns 50% of Napoli and something with Romney back in 08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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