Asura 319 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, Cicero said: Kinell why am I bothering. First touch and ball control aren't the same thing. Lampard had a great first touch, was he a magnificent dribbler? He wasn't. Passing, vision, and one touch passing aren't the same thing for fucks sake. Mourinho said it best, "Anyone can pass a ball with no pressure, even I can. It's whether or not you can unlock a defence while being under pressure". Rooney was a great passer of the ball, did he have great vision? No, he didn't. When he was moved into the CAM spot he regressed magnificently. Matic is a great passer as well, but do you see him cutting teams open with passes in the final third? Passing and Vision are not the same thing.and are analysed differently. Passing is the accuracy towards another player whereas vision is the ability to find the player in space. Vision is also highly determined if the player is under pressure and having the intelligence to finding the open man in space whilst being under pressure. So if they don't have the ball as much, how can they be ranked higher than those who have the ball all the time? The game involves using your feet? Your reply here has many answers to your own questions. Even though you came up with tens of attributes for an outfield player, you yourself said not every position player has all of those. A CAM needs vision, a winger needs dribbling, a CM needs to hold the ball during pressure and distribute it with a good pass, a striker needs first touch and shot. Its not that all these four positions have all the above attributes, similary GK have different attributes from these above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asura 319 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 I mean if you are saying that players only who has all of the passing, shooting, distribution, good first touch, dribbling should be on that list then it should be Messi from 1 to 100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asura 319 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 21 minutes ago, Viva la FCB said: Theres a case for Robben sure, but yes i would absolutely have Lahm on here. Think of the greatest RB's of all time? whos argueably better? Maybe Zanetti off the top of my head and hes on the list i think both should be 100%. Carvajal is soon becoming the best RB of the next generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero 5,266 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 4 minutes ago, Asura said: but its 99% in Gk hands rather than his feet, sure lets go ahead and analyse about how he is not great because he doesnt use his feet. It's not whether he is great or not, (No need for red herring here). it's primarily based on what's being analysed. And when ranking the best footballers ever, (key word here is football) it's more logical to base the criteria on footballing ability rather than goal keeping ability. As the latter is exclusive and limited. To say Buffon is a better footballer than Iniesta with a straight face is a cause for concern. 2 minutes ago, Asura said: I mean if you are saying that players only who has all of the passing, shooting, distribution, good first touch, dribbling should be on that list then it should be Messi from 1 to 100. I'm not saying that. At all actually. I'm saying those attributes are what should be analysed when determining the rank of best 'footballing ability'. Pele revolutionaised the game, however Garrincha was more talented on the ball. 11 minutes ago, Stan said: surely you can't deny though that goal-keepers are important and a pre-requisite of that is them using their hands though ? I don't. In fact I feel goal keepers should be excluded from this list and have their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Viva la FCB+ 2,548 Posted July 28, 2017 Subscriber Share Posted July 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Asura said: Carvajal is soon becoming the best RB of the next generation. I wont argue with that, he probably outplayed Lahm the year on loan to Leverkussen. Hes definitely got it all and only gotten better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asura 319 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Just now, Cicero said: It's not whether he is great or not, (No need for red herring here). it's primarily based on what's being analysed. And when ranking the best footballers ever, (key word here is football) it's more logical to base the criteria on footballing ability rather than goal keeping ability. As the latter is exclusive and limited. To say Buffon is a better footballer than Iniesta with a straight face is a cause for concern. maybe they should rename this list as "best footballer with the ball" for your argument to be valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,368 Posted July 28, 2017 Administrator Share Posted July 28, 2017 17 hours ago, Cicero said: It's not whether he is great or not, (No need for red herring here). it's primarily based on what's being analysed. And when ranking the best footballers ever, (key word here is football) it's more logical to base the criteria on footballing ability rather than goal keeping ability. As the latter is exclusive and limited. To say Buffon is a better footballer than Iniesta with a straight face is a cause for concern. I'm not saying that. At all actually. I'm saying those attributes are what should be analysed when determining the rank of best 'footballing ability'. Pele revolutionaised the game, however Garrincha was more talented on the ball. I don't. In fact I feel goal keepers should be excluded from this list and have their own. goalkeepers are footballers though? Why should they be excluded? look at the keepers listed - Schmeichel, Dino Zoff and Gianluigi Buffon (and any others), do you not agree that their achievements, longevity and ability warrants them a place on the list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Mel81x+ 3,612 Posted July 28, 2017 Subscriber Share Posted July 28, 2017 13 minutes ago, LaSambadeStGermain said: Neuer in 2014 as I used as an example. Sometimes I wonder whether hes a goalkeeper or a secret Defender-Hybrid because that guy doesn't operate like a regular GK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero 5,266 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 15 minutes ago, Stan said: goalkeepers are footballers though? Why should they be excluded? If you look at the 2 keepers listed - Dino Zoff and Gianluigi Buffon, do you not agree that their achievements, longevity and ability warrants them a place on the list? Matter of perspectives. Lev Yashin was a remarkable GK, but Goal Keepers have less and exclusive attributes as opposed to a midfielder or striker. Hence me saying I don't like including Goal Keepers in a ranking determining the best footballers. As football is judged primarily with your ability on the ball, hence Messi, Pele and co are always on the top of the list. 15 minutes ago, Asura said: maybe they should rename this list as "best footballer with the ball" for your argument to be valid. Still wouldn't be valid as there are goal keepers on the list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero 5,266 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Zidane might be the most overrated player ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Honey 3,767 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 It is stupid trying to make a list of 100, you're better off just focusing on a top 10 and letting people argue out the order of that. Once you expand it to 100 you open the door to humiliation. Ryan Giggs on there for example, or putting players who have won multiple Ballon D'Or awards in 50-60th place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,368 Posted July 28, 2017 Administrator Share Posted July 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said: It is stupid trying to make a list of 100, you're better off just focusing on a top 10 and letting people argue out the order of that. Once you expand it to 100 you open the door to humiliation. Ryan Giggs on there for example, or putting players who have won multiple Ballon D'Or awards in 50-60th place. and goalkeepers taking up useless space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ 7,644 Posted July 28, 2017 Subscriber Share Posted July 28, 2017 I hate these lists, fair enough it's a good debate on who is the best ever player and then maybe the top three or five but there's absolutely no point making a list like this agonising over every pair of players which one should be 68th and which one 69th. What a complete waste of time and effort when people are only going to look at the top few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,100 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 I hate this sort of bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Cicero said: Zidane might be the most overrated player ever. Pretty much everyone over 35 has told me that Platini was better than Zinedine Zidane. I couldn't tell you however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry 1,437 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Pele should be first. Won more world cups than the rest of the top 10 put together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 13 hours ago, LaSambadeStGermain said: Pretty much everyone over 35 has told me that Platini was better than Zinedine Zidane. I couldn't tell you however. I lived through both complete eras. Zidane was the more technically gifted of the two although I think both had two great sides around them and this is why we can depict individuals and give our opinion on how good they are, but to state what the collective won as the reason behind the formulation of an opinion. In the case of Platini versus Zidane, I preferred Platini as a player simply because there were various great national sides at that time and he was a protagonist. At club level he's a legend wherever he's played. The problem I have with Zidane is that his highest level wasn't ver long lived and a lot of the time it looked like he was just jogging around the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry 1,437 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 39 minutes ago, SirBalon said: Yeah i agree. The footage of pele on YouTube isn't all that impressive... No way is he the greatest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 19 minutes ago, Harry said: Yeah i agree. The footage of pele on YouTube isn't all that impressive... No way is he the greatest He's not the greatest, but that's subjective and just an opinion. Nobody's going to argue with you or anyone for saying that or even if you say that it's Ronaldo (the real one). What's ridiculous is to say that a player is the best for having won more trophies in a collective sport. What the hell is Johan Cruyff doing so high up the list then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry 1,437 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 All you can really measure that isn't subjective are clear cut achievements and statistics. Trophies won are clear measures of success. As are goals scored, awards won, clean sheets kept, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toinho 2,210 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 Shit list. No Viduka. THE V BOMBER! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toinho 2,210 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 17 hours ago, Stan said: goalkeepers are footballers though? Why should they be excluded? look at the 2 keepers listed - Schmeichel, Dino Zoff and Gianluigi Buffon (and any others), do you not agree that their achievements, longevity and ability warrants them a place on the list? Can you count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,368 Posted July 29, 2017 Administrator Share Posted July 29, 2017 Just now, Anton said: Can you count? haha I edited my post but forgot to do that bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted July 29, 2017 Share Posted July 29, 2017 58 minutes ago, Harry said: All you can really measure that isn't subjective are clear cut achievements and statistics. Trophies won are clear measures of success. As are goals scored, awards won, clean sheets kept, etc. Collective honours aren't individual achievements we can measure as an analysis on an individual. Because if that's the case the list would be all over the place. If anyone's got time, they can reshuffle that list based on what they won with their respective teams. Pelé won't be top though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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