Spike 5,103 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 9 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: @Coma @Eco @Spike am I violating any sort of unwritten ethical code by not including the amount of tax added to a bill when I calculate the tip I'm adding on in the US? In my mind, the tax would have to be paid by me regardless of how good/bad the service was... whereas what I'm paying for in tip is strictly based on what I feel is fair to add onto what was charged based on the service I received (which I never tip nothing, but if the service is dogshit I'll leave a shit tip). Seems weird for me to include the value of the tax added onto the transaction when I'm calculating the tip... so I just leave it off. One of my friends here said I'm a dick for doing that. My reasoning though makes perfect sense (at least, to me ) and I think he's an idiot for including the tax when he calculates tip. Tip on the total paid. Stop being a weirdo these people earn $2 an hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,184 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, Spike said: Stop being a weirdo these people earn $2 an hour. Paying $2 an hour should be illegal tbh. Here, the lowest any of these waiters/waitresses can be paid is $15.50 - and there's no service industry exemption to paying below CA minimum wage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,103 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 Just now, Dr. Gonzo said: Paying $2 an hour should be illegal tbh. Here, the lowest any of these waiters/waitresses can be paid is $15.50 - and there's no service industry exemption to paying below CA minimum wage. $15 is California is about $2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,184 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 Just now, Spike said: $15 is California is about $2. It's more like $10 tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,103 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: It's more like $10 tbh Los Angeles is over 60% more expensive to live than Chicago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,184 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 1 minute ago, Spike said: Los Angeles is over 60% more expensive to live than Chicago. What's your source because most cost of living index websites indicate that it's about a 20-27% higher of a cost of living than Chicago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,103 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: What's your source because most cost of living index websites indicate that it's about a 20-27% higher of a cost of living than Chicago. https://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/chicago-il/los-angeles-ca/123000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,184 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 Just now, Spike said: https://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/chicago-il/los-angeles-ca/123000 I don't think it makes sense to include the cost of a median home in these comparisons, tbh. If someone's moving from Chicago to Los Angeles, they've probably got a new job lined up - realistically, if they own a home around Chicago... I'm not sure it makes sense to sell it to attempt to buy a comparative property in California (especially Los Angeles). The average homeowner in most other states will find that their money gets them a much nicer house than they'd get in California - the market for homes in California is fucked up, it's probably the closest to the insanity in Canada or NYC for buying properties. Companies like BlackRock are to blame for that more than anything imo. It'd probably be better to compare the relative housing costs (rent/mortgages) in the two cities - which is honestly still going to be where the bulk of the difference between the costs of LA & Chicago are, tbh (and that's reflected in the link you provided); LA is still more expensive for sure - but I don't think it's as wide as over 60%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,103 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said: I don't think it makes sense to include the cost of a median home in these comparisons, tbh. If someone's moving from Chicago to Los Angeles, they've probably got a new job lined up - realistically, if they own a home around Chicago... I'm not sure it makes sense to sell it to attempt to buy a comparative property in California (especially Los Angeles). The average homeowner in most other states will find that their money gets them a much nicer house than they'd get in California - the market for homes in California is fucked up, it's probably the closest to the insanity in Canada or NYC for buying properties. Companies like BlackRock are to blame for that more than anything imo. It'd probably be better to compare the relative housing costs (rent/mortgages) in the two cities - which is honestly still going to be where the bulk of the difference between the costs of LA & Chicago are, tbh (and that's reflected in the link you provided); LA is still more expensive for sure - but I don't think it's as wide as over 60%. Even forbes follows through with the 60% difference with housing and it isn't something that can just be ignored. It's a cost of living, the same standard in LA and Chicago are worlds apart. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/mortgages/real-estate/cost-of-living-calculator/los-angeles-long-beach-ca/?city=chicago-il&income=70000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab 1,294 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 I typically just round up to the nearest whatever if I'm paying cash. Barber charges me £13 so I say take the £15 etc If he was charging me £15 he'd be fucked tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,184 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 18 minutes ago, Spike said: Even forbes follows through with the 60% difference with housing and it isn't something that can just be ignored. It's a cost of living, the same standard in LA and Chicago are worlds apart. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/mortgages/real-estate/cost-of-living-calculator/los-angeles-long-beach-ca/?city=chicago-il&income=70000 Yeah but that also says it's a 20% difference in cost of living, even with accounting for the difference in housing costs. That means $15 in LA is the equivalent of $12 in Chicago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil 1,179 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 21 minutes ago, Rab said: I typically just found up to the nearest whatever if I'm paying cash. Barber charges me £13 so I say take the £15 etc If he was charging me £15 he'd be fucked tho That's why it's always £13, they expect the £15. I tip my barber, I also tip taxi drivers. I can't think of anyone else I tip other than waiters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,103 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said: Yeah but that also says it's a 20% difference in cost of living, even with accounting for the difference in housing costs. That means $15 in LA is the equivalent of $12 in Chicago. Unless you have a mortgage or rent. 20% is just the averaged out total among a lot fields. Housing is literally the second most important expense after food, it doesn’t matter if a beer is 1.346% cheaper. 60% on average for a house of similar quality is insane and considerable more impactful than everything else. Housing is a larger financial burden than anything else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,184 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 8 minutes ago, Spike said: Unless you have a mortgage or rent. 20% is just the averaged out total among a lot fields. Housing is literally the second most important expense after food, it doesn’t matter if a beer is 1.346% cheaper. 60% on average for a house of similar quality is insane and considerable more impactful than everything else. Housing is a larger financial burden than anything else I think that 20% difference is including the mortgage/rent differences. And the reality is when people move to places that are more expensive, they're probably not going to move into a house that's as big - you look at what my sister pays for in housing costs in London & what my parents or brother have to pay and the places in the North are considerably nicer than what the same money gets you in London. But she gets paid far more than my brother does... and truthfully, while I would never live in London, it's a great city with a lot to do. I don't really like LA (I hate it) but I think more people have the opinion that it's a great city with a lot to do as well. And that's why demand for housing there is so high and why so many people would be willing to live in less nice homes to live there. Quality of life matters to people on a similar scale to cost of living. I agree that housing is a larger financial burden than anything else. And housing costs in California are fucking mental. But if given the choice between a larger house in another state or my expensive shack in California, I'd probably stick where I'm at California's the best place I've ever lived by far - so to me... it seems worth the higher cost of living. My shack might be expensive, but I've got a pretty good quality of life here. Better than it's been anywhere else I've lived imo. I'm sure things are much harder if you're making the state's minimum wage though. But when I left the UK to come here, part of the issue was I was getting job offers in the US that were paying far more than the UK... and the cost of living at the time was a bit more than the UK, but the UK wasn't so much lower that it matched the salary. If it were even a close ratio... I'm 99.99% sure I would have flown back to the UK to take a job back home. So I honestly have no idea how minimum wage workers survive in California. Truthfully, I have no idea how they survive anywhere else in the US either. But I'm pretty sure me not tipping on the tax isn't going to be hurting them more than their employers not paying them fairly... mostly because I just got back from lunch and on the receipt I saw they precalculated the tip out for 3 different percentages & all of those calculations were NOT including the value of the tax. So I'm pretty sure that's the way you're meant to tip and employers trying to get you to pay tip on the tax as well are just asking you to do their job and pay their workers more because they don't want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,103 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 You are really focused on house size. When the quality is considerably worse for the same price, how are people on the lower end of the financial scale meant to survive or even thrive when housing prices appreciate and they are paying more for less? $100,000 isn’t going to get anything more than a shack in LA and the reality is that many people live below the poverty line in that city. A otherworldly expensive city sprung up around a lot of impoverished people. $100,000 will buy a significantly better house in terms of quality and size in other parts of the country but that isn’t a reality for a lot of people. When the median cost is higher, so is the floor cost. Paying less on your tips isn’t sticking it to the employers and making a stand, you’re just being pedanticly stingy in a system that favours business over people. The only people that are hurt by this are the workers, it makes no difference to a business if you tip 18% or 20%, but to people that work it does. Whether you like it or not you are engaged in a system that doesn’t treat workers well, and being anal about pre or post tax tipping isn’t helpful or conducive to any sort of culture change or legislative change. Tips less if you want to, they will never pay them more to cover the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,184 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 1 minute ago, Spike said: Paying less on your tips isn’t sticking it to the employers and making a stand, you’re just being pedanticly stingy in a system that favours business over people. The only people that are hurt by this are the workers, it makes no difference to a business if you tip 18% or 20%, but to people that work it does. Whether you like it or not you are engaged in a system that doesn’t treat workers well, and being anal about pre or post tax tipping isn’t helpful or conducive to any sort of culture change or legislative change. Tips less if you want to, they will never pay them more to cover the difference. Ehh... deciding not to pay tip on the tax is definitely taking a stand, someone's got to look out for me. And realistically in the US that's not going to be business owners (because they care about profits), workers (because they're just trying to survive and life life like everyone else), or politicians (because this is the US and politicians don't work for normal people). Every little bit helps the workers sure - but every little bit also helps me too, and the fact that some places pre-calculate tip post-tax while others calculate it pre-tax makes me feel like businesses are pretending to care about their workers by encouraging a slightly larger tip... when really they're just trying to fuck the both of us over. Especially those places that already have a built in "surcharge" built into the restaurant already (and I tip on those too, because I know that despite the artificial price increase the workers aren't getting paid enough). If it were down to me, tipping wouldn't be a thing and places would just raise their prices so they can afford to pay workers properly. But they won't do that because they're afraid that if they show customers the actual costs, it will be too jarring and people won't go to their businesses as much. But going forward I'll tip on the post-tax total when I'm going out for lunch on the company card since that seems like the right thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,103 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 Not engaging with business that pays via tipping is taking a stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,184 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 And for house prices in California, the state should be doing something to limit companies like BlackRock and Chinese investors taking advantage of the only legitimate way to bring money out of China by parking it in real estate and letting houses sit empty just because they can't actually wire money to themselves out of China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,184 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 Just now, Spike said: Not engaging with business that pays via tipping is taking a stand. In 2023 that doesn't leave a lot of places to go eat or drink anything in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,103 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said: In 2023 that doesn't leave a lot of places to go eat or drink anything in the US. The service industry is more stressful than most jobs. Ease their pain by cooking at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toinho 2,210 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 No. I can’t believe the tipping culture in places like North America. Sort it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,103 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Toinho said: No. I can’t believe the tipping culture in places like North America. Sort it out. It’s has been emerging in Australia, better not throw stones in a glass house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toinho 2,210 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Spike said: It’s has been emerging in Australia, better not throw stones in a glass house. Never seen it? We at least include tax within the price. Absolutely bonkers when countries don’t do that, what is the reason? Japan used to have “two prices” listed. I would guess it’s a legal thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike 5,103 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Toinho said: Never seen it? We at least include tax within the price. Absolutely bonkers when countries don’t do that, what is the reason? Japan used to have “two prices” listed. I would guess it’s a legal thing? I constantly saw tip jars, and a lot flush with cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,184 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 11 minutes ago, Spike said: The service industry is more stressful than most jobs. Ease their pain by cooking at home. In America (and the UK), aren't most jobs service jobs? But I can get behind that. I try not to eat out as much as I can, although it's tough when I'm at work because tbh I don't really have time to get myself a lunch ready before I head out to the office all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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