Liverpool Discussion

[RandoEFC+]

18 minutes ago, Stan said:

This is why Liverpool shouldn't have won the title. Look at what it's caused.

They've always been like this to be fair .

This is why I was talking about Liverpool being an interesting case to keep an eye on this season. These guys all make very valid points on both sides of the argument. We'll find out this season if this Liverpool side has achieved what they have with quite mediocre strength in depth primarily because of that desperate hunger to get the Premier League sized monkey off their back, or is it still feasible, against all logic and reason in this day and age, to get to the top of the tree and stay there with the right coaching and conditioning allowing a team of 13-14 genuine regulars instead of a Man City-style bench of £50m squad players? Getting to the top in modern football with a squad structured like Liverpool's seemed impossible, it wasn't. Staying there seems even more unlikely. If they can do it, they'll be a historical team not just because of the records and the trophy count but because you could see other teams change their philosophy and use them as a template, it could change the established approach towards building an elite football team to compete on all fronts.

I'm genuinely fascinated, not as an Everton fan but as a football observer, to see how they respond to winning the league, not least because whichever way it goes, this thread's going to be full of some pretty fucking big "I told you so"s.

[Rick]

Haha I will eat my hat if we can maintain the levels needed for this season and beyond. I will happily accept all “I told you so’s”. 

[Cicero]

Two back to back seasons with 97 + points and a Champions League title in the span of 2 years. Just how much more do they have in the tank? 
It’s safe to question the hunger of their players they’ve so heavily relied on. Particularly the front three. 

The biggest downfall for any reigning champions is failing to strengthen the following season. Chelsea 05 & 06, United 07-09, City 18 & 19, each summer they strengthened after their title win. 

Imo, Liverpool fans have every right to feel worried if the window ends and no one comes in. Particularly given how much their rivals have strengthened. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Cicero

[The Artful Dodger]

I’d be surprised if any side reaches nearly 100 this year, it’s going to be a tough year and in some ways that may be a leveller. You just feel Liverpool rely on a fit first eleven and surely that will give at some point? Wouldn’t write them off though, Man City are susceptible to mental fragility  and Chelsea could go either way. 

[LFCMike]

There's a lot to be said for keeping your best players. It's something a lot of us have moaned about in the last ten years or so. Keeping them does cost a lot of money, believe it or not. 

Klopp and the recruitment team deserve the trust of the fanbase after what has been achieved over the last couple of years.

Klopp has a track record of vastly improving players but because people can't see it in £xm it doesn't count as an improvement apparently. What these people moaning really want is a sugar daddy to buy two £50m players for every position.

[RandoEFC+]

15 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

There's a lot to be said for keeping your best players. It's something a lot of us have moaned about in the last ten years or so. Keeping them does cost a lot of money, believe it or not. 

Klopp and the recruitment team deserve the trust of the fanbase after what has been achieved over the last couple of years.

Klopp has a track record of vastly improving players but because people can't see it in £xm it doesn't count as an improvement apparently. What these people moaning really want is a sugar daddy to buy two £50m players for every position.

Pretty sure they just want a bit more depth in one or two key positions. There is a middle ground between buying nobody and spending £400m.

[LFCMadLad]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

Aye okay, Curtis Jones has the extra pressure of having to replace under performing players. Let’s throw him him. 

Origi is going to be our back up striker/ attacker this season. You happy with that? He’s scored big goals, but he needs to be here on merit, not for sentimental reasons. He has not done enough since he joined to justify being a first choice back up. 
 

What about injuries to the front three, or at the back? You think we have more than enough if Salah or Mane we’re to be injured for a couple of months? I certainly don’t think we do. Especially at the back. God forbid if Van Dijk is out....we would be shafted having to rely on a seriously injury prone Matip to come in. 
 

Oh here we go. Was waiting for you to mention Chelsea me wanting squad depth is equal to them spending over 200m On first 11 players. Have a day off.  If this club doesn’t want to take out loans or finance moves based on future income, that’s their decision. But don’t expect us to maintain this success by standing still. Burnout is real, and I fear these players are on the edge of it. 

Jones has to replace underperforming players? Are you for fucking real? 

Those underperforming players haven't lost a home game in 3 years you dullard 

Sorry for your fears but if you knew anything remotely then you wouldnt be doing what you are doing for a living, you would be Klopps side kick. 

Sorry mate but you don't half come across as a spoilt brat.

[LFCMadLad]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

Haha I will eat my hat if we can maintain the levels needed for this season and beyond. I will happily accept all “I told you so’s”. 

you said that at the start of last season!

[Rick]

13 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Jones has to replace underperforming players? Are you for fucking real? 

Those underperforming players haven't lost a home game in 3 years you dullard 

Sorry for your fears but if you knew anything remotely then you wouldnt be doing what you are doing for a living, you would be Klopps side kick. 

Sorry mate but you don't half come across as a spoilt brat.

Christ, clearly I’m talking about Jones having a job of replacing players who underperform this season. 
 

You always go back to this shite line “if you knew what the crack was you would be working for the club”. Trying to use it to shut down Any discussions that you don’t like. Grow up mate, it’s possible to have a debate without resorting to childish shit like that. 
 

Klopp doesn’t tell the press or fans his true  feelings on everything. Would you air your dirty laundry about your employment or employer to the press? Course not. It would be very very very surprising If Klopp wasn’t wanting players in to freshen up the squad. You win the Champions League and then the clubs first Premier League title, you sort of expect to have the tools to build on that. Especially when you’ve committed yourself to the club for the next four years. 
 

He and the coaching staff have worked miracles since we brought Van Dijk and Allison in but surely the legs and mentality of these players is being stretched to the limit at this point. One or two serious squad injections isn’t a whole lot to expect from the club. We bring in a quality CB to push Gomez & Thiago in to the midfield then we already look a lot healthier. 
 

Nobody is asking for a half billion pound splurge, so stop reacting like we are. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Rick

[Mel81x+]

I'd wait 10 games into the season to see how things start to pan out. I do think we'll end up with Thiago before the window closes as rumors are going around now post him turning down a 4yr deal at Bayern that he's already got an agreement in the pipeline. It's just a waiting game now and I don't think anyone is going to be disappointed when its over.

[LFCMadLad]

22 minutes ago, Rick said:

Christ, clearly I’m talking about Jones having a job of replacing players who underperform this season. 
 

You always go back to this shite line “if you knew what the crack was you would be working for the club”. Trying to use it to shut down Any discussions that you don’t like. Grow up mate, it’s possible to have a debate without resorting to childish shit like that. 
 

Klopp doesn’t tell the press or fans his true  feelings on everything. Would you air your dirty laundry about your employment or employer to the press? Course not. It would be very very very surprising If Klopp wasn’t wanting players in to freshen up the squad. You win the Champions League and then the clubs first Premier League title, you sort of expect to have the tools to build on that. Especially when you’ve committed yourself to the club for the next four years. 
 

He and the coaching staff have worked miracles since we brought Van Dijk and Allison in but surely the legs and mentality of these players is being stretched to the limit at this point. One or two serious squad injections isn’t a whole lot to expect from the club. We bring in a quality CB to push Gomez & Thiago in to the midfield then we already look a lot healthier. 
 

Nobody is asking for a half billion pound splurge, so stop reacting like we are. 

Klopp said only the other day that he thrives on improving players in training and isn't interested in using the transfer market to fix things. Do you think he would committ another 4 years if he wasnt happy with how things are going? Expanded stadium, merged training facilities, CL win, Premier league title, club world cup etc etc... 

If you think hes lying then fair enough.

The transfer window isnt even shut yet ffs. Honestly you come across as a little spoilt bitch. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by LFCMadLad

[Burning Gold]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

Two back to back seasons with 97 + points and a Champions League title in the span of 2 years. Just how much more do they have in the tank? 
It’s safe to question the hunger of their players they’ve so heavily relied on. Particularly the front three. 

The biggest downfall for any reigning champions is failing to strengthen the following season. Chelsea 05 & 06, United 07-09, City 18 & 19, each summer they strengthened after their title win. 

Imo, Liverpool fans have every right to feel worried if the window ends and no one comes in. Particularly given how much their rivals have strengthened. 

Hunger is the question for me. There were times last season when it felt like we were winning through sheer force of will, and with the title under their belt now and no fans in the stadium, I'd be concerned those moments won't be there this season. Then again, we won the league by so far last year, and Klopp has a reputation as being one of the best motivators around, so maybe those things won't make enough of a difference.

Personally, I would like another centre half and I'd like another forward if Minamino is who I think he is (i.e. not an impact maker). The fact we wanted Werner but didn't get him suggests Klopp does too but either the money isn't there or the right player isn't.

Midfield is actually the area I'd focus on the least as we've got good depth there, but I'm not going to say no to a player of Thiago's quality. I thought we'd get him at the beginning of the Summer because there was just too much noise with none of our regular journalists denying it, but now I'm quite skeptical because it's been so long.

[Rick]

9 hours ago, LFCMadLad said:

Klopp said only the other day that he thrives on improving players in training and isn't interested in using the transfer market to fix things. Do you think he would committ another 4 years if he wasnt happy with how things are going? Expanded stadium, merged training facilities, CL win, Premier league title, club world cup etc etc... 

If you think hes lying then fair enough.

The transfer window isnt even shut yet ffs. Honestly you come across as a little spoilt bitch. 

How is it spoilt to want the club to really freshen the squad for the first time in 4 transfer windows? Stop talking nonsense.

[LFCMike]

10 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Pretty sure they just want a bit more depth in one or two key positions. There is a middle ground between buying nobody and spending £400m.

Yeah I was just being a bit of a cunt there.

But seriously, if Klopp thinks that the likes of Jones and Minamino can step up to the required level, who are a few dickheads on an internet forum to tell him he's wrong? The same shouts of 'not good enough at the moment' or being underwhelmed with an £8m signing were leveled at players like Trent and Robertson three years ago. Only two years ago Henderson wasn't good enough. I was one of them that thought it too. But guess what, he improved massively.

[LFCMike]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

How is it spoilt to want the club to really freshen the squad for the first time in 4 transfer windows? Stop talking nonsense.

I've got a feeling Thiago will happen. If it does, I don't see why anyone would have an issue with Fabinho as fourth choice CB. It's better than going out and spending a needless amount of money on a player who would probably be on a similar level to a Ragnar Klavan.

[Rick]

So I’m a dickhead now for wanting some squad depth. There’s no point trying to discuss this on here. 
 

[LFCMadLad]

37 minutes ago, Rick said:

So I’m a dickhead now for wanting some squad depth. There’s no point trying to discuss this on here. 
 

Of course you arent a dickhead but think about what you are wishing for...

We have Tsimikas, Matip, Fabinho, Milner, Minamino, Origi already on the bench. Then we have extremely highly rated youngsters like Jones and Brewster pushing those in front of them. Thiago is also likely to happen. 

Thats 9 players not even guaranteed to start most games and most of them would walk into most premier league sides.. and you want more? 

I just dont get your persistent need for new players mate? And its like you totally dismiss all the money that has gone into extending the stadium, the money going into the imminent second stadium expansion, the money spent on merging the training facilities, the money given to extending our first team players contracts... and yet still moan that the owners aren't spending enough?

Honestly, its like you think real life premiere league is Champ Manager on cheat mode. Thats Chelsea and City mate, not Liverpool.

Edited September 14, 2020 by LFCMadLad

[Rick]

I’m being realistic about expecting the same small group of players to have both the energy and the mentality to go big for another season. 
 

Origi and Minamino are the two from that list who will get the most minutes in attacking positions. I’ve made my feelings clear on Origi, I don’t know how you look at his time here, and decide he’s a good back up to the likes of Sala, Firmino & Mane. He is so far away from their quality. Minamino is one you can’t make a judgement on either way. The signs are that he’s still adjusting and shy (hardly what you want from who is expected to be an impact player) but he was good at Salzburg so let’s hope he can replicate that here. 
 

I’m asking for Thiago because he would automatically improve our midfield. He’s better than anything we have already. I’ve not commented on LB, cause we have strengthened there and I’m happy with it. I’m talking about CB position. Apart from Matip, we have a young lad who hasn’t played a competitive game and Fabinho as a make shift centre half. Leeds walked through our midfield in that first half, and we only started to improve once Fabinho was brought in to sure it up so I do not want to take him out of that position. 

[LFCMadLad]

Well yeah, in an ideal world we would buy Mbappe and Sancho to rotate with Mane and Salah but unfortunately (unless you are Chelsea and City), money doesn't grow on trees. 

[RandoEFC+]

Using hyperbole and pretending that people are asking for Mbappe and Sancho and spending hundreds of millions when literally nobody is even close to saying that only serves to undermine your own argument and is why you end up calling each other spoilt brats or dickheads. There's a fair debate to be had from both sides so I don't see why you have to make out that expecting just a couple of signings to add depth is in any way equivalent to playing Football Manager or FIFA with unlimited money switched on.

It's basic stuff. Even if you already have the best team in the world, all of them are another year older and it's normal for clubs to refresh the squad because any team can always improve. If you stand still while everyone else improves their squad then eventually they overtake you. If the finances don't work then fair enough, make that point without pretending that the other person is saying something they aren't. Bad luck to Liverpool for finally fighting their way back to the top at a time where the global pandemic is messing with the finances of clubs who are still trying to live within their means. Not everyone can do a Man Utd and be shite for far too long then get back to the pinnacle just in time to be the biggest benefactors of huge swathes of money suddenly being poured into the sport.

I think the concerns raised about Origi are fair enough. Unless he can play like prime Drogba against teams other than Everton and Barcelona then you should be looking to bring in a fee for him and put that towards another option in the front line. Minamino needs time to settle in and work with the team. Klopp has made loads of signings that have taken 12 or even 18 months to come into their own then been absolutely quality. He might well be the latest one of those. Then again, he's come from the Austrian league so it's not like he has a proven track record of stepping into the first team of a team competing at the highest level.

I'm a bit fuzzy on the timelines but Lovren and Lallana both left this summer didn't they? Fair enough if you've got young players who are as good as those but it's not the same as having someone experienced to step in who is a known quantity. Thiago would clearly be a quality signing but depth in midfield isn't really an issue for Liverpool with Henderson, Fabinho, Milner, Wijnaldum, Chamberlain, Jones in there already. He is a different type of player though and you could free up Fabinho as an emergency centre back if you got him in.

You can't rest on your laurels. Key injuries kill you if they come at the wrong time. You got knocked out of the Champions League last season because Alisson was injured and your second choice goalkeeper wasn't up to standard at that level. Comparisons to other teams aren't always helpful and yeah, backup goalkeeper is always one of the trickiest positions in the squad to get right, but if you had a Sergio Romero or a Willy Caballero instead of Adrian, you could have stayed in contention for another European Cup that night. It could come at any time with Van Dijk or Salah or Mane if you don't have the right cover. You don't have to be a spoilt FIFA armchair fan or think you could do a better job than Jurgen Klopp to point that out.

I think it's absolutely fair enough based on what the team has achieved in the last two seasons to not be worried, but there are rational arguments to support you if you reckon that Liverpool haven't done enough to improve the squad this window. The only thing I disagree with is acting as if people who take the opposite stance to you are being ridiculous. Not every debate has to have a clear consensus. Sadly, because it's the internet, it's easy to forget that.

[Stan]

Pretty sure @Rick has tried to say exactly that but got labelled a dickhead as it is

[Rick]

It’s alright @RandoEFC is a dickhead too now. 

[LFCMike]

Rick has been moaning over the last few weeks that Liverpool didn't sign Werner and Havertz who would have cost upwards of £50m and £60m each. Let's not pretend this is because we're not spending £20-30m here or there. Werner may well have happened without a pandemic but it didn't so just suck it up. 

[LFCMadLad]

47 minutes ago, Stan said:

Pretty sure @Rick has tried to say exactly that but got labelled a dickhead as it is

He hasnt said exactly that at all. He is point blank refusing to acknowledge the actual facts of the amount of money that has been pumped into this club to improve us on a wider scale than just transfers.

Our owners and Klopp have all said that during this pandemic when the future is uncertain, they are refusing to take out loans for transfers against the club. The only way we buy players if is we sell players to fund it. Obviously because of the pandemic we cant just offload players for market value because everyone (bar the oil clubs) are being really cautious with their money also. 

We are still paying massive installments on the stadium expansion. We are still paying installments on the new training facilities. We are still paying installments on the next phase of expanding Anfield and we have just given new contracts to existing players at a massive cost. 

I dont know how many times the club or Klopp has to say it... there is no money for big signings as things stand!!!!

Not only that, Klopp himself has said time and time again from the start of his tenure that he doesn't like working with massive squads. He prefers a smaller group of players he can trust and improve them with training. Its worked out pretty well for him up until now hasnt it? 

Some people are going to have to get their head around this sooner or later. @Rick carries on saying things like "Origi isn't good enough as back up", but Klopp obviously thinks he is. Klopp is no mug, he gets rid of players he doesn't like ie Sakho etc. So that's something else rick is going to have to get his head around. 

Its fine to have an opinion on things but constantly whining about not signing new players when our strategy has brought us so much success is getting tiresome. We had these exact discussions before the start of last season and look how that turned out. 

The people at our club know what they are doing! Ffs have some faith.

Edited September 14, 2020 by LFCMadLad

[Rick]

24 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

Rick has been moaning over the last few weeks that Liverpool didn't sign Werner and Havertz who would have cost upwards of £50m and £60m each. Let's not pretend this is because we're not spending £20-30m here or there. Werner may well have happened without a pandemic but it didn't so just suck it up. 

Werner I’ll give you, I wasn’t happy at the time because his price was cheap in relation to his ability. I haven’t mentioned Werner for weeks. 
 

I’m not having that I moaned about Havertz. I said I was gutted Chelsea signed him because he’s a generational talent. Funnily enough, I don’t want our rivals to be signing amazing talents. Yes, I did say that I would have liked us to have been in the running and that he would have been perfect in our system, but I’ve hardly moaned. And I haven’t brought up either of those players in this debate, you were the first to mention them.