World Cup 2018 Qualifiers - Play-offs

[SirBalon]

Just now, Blue said:

Not really, no. They've had some proper teams I'll admit (late 90's and late 2000's were 2 very good sides) but they still achieved nothing. Even Peru's golden generation, we could have done better in World Cups. Even then we still won a Copa America and made use of it of a proper team.

This current Mexican team is shite. They have some talent like Chuki Lozano and Tecatico but overall its not one of the better Mexico teams but somehow they are "world class" because they put up a fight against Belgium in a friendly FFS 

So you'd rate Peru's World Cup tradition and overall footballing history where individuals are concerned alongside if not superior to Mexico?

[Guest]

Just now, SirBalon said:

So you'd rate Peru's World Cup tradition and overall footballing history where individuals are concerned alongside if not superior to Mexico?

I don't know about world cup tradition, but we've always been more of a football giant than Mexico.

Even in our dark era, we still had players like Pizarro, Solano and Farfan who excelled in top leagues. The best Mexico have had was Rafa Marquez and Borghetti.

The only time Mexico have ever been better than us was in the late 2000's. 

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, Blue said:

I don't know about world cup tradition, but we've always been more of a football giant than Mexico.

Even in our dark era, we still had players like Pizarro, Solano and Farfan who excelled in top leagues. The best Mexico have had was Rafa Marquez and Borghetti.

The only time Mexico have ever been better than us was in the late 2000's. 

I know quite a bit about both nations and their footballing history, but I wouldn't say Perú are more "giant" than Mexico mate.  I'd say quite the opposite...  Maybe you can blame that on the CONCACAF and what you like but the impression in Europe is that Mexico is a bigger nation in football terms...  By quite some distance too!

Maybe it's because some of Mexico's footballers have reached the legendary pinnacle of football in this continent, I don't know. But I've always also looked at the awarding of the World Cup hosting as something that creates and withholds status....  (Not these days mind you with political and marketing powers...  I'm on about the past).

[El Profesor]

@SirBalon , I'm curious. Do you think Spain can be put in the same bracket of Germany, Brazil, Argentina, etc, in terms of football tradition? 

[Guest]

Just now, SirBalon said:

I know quite a bit about both nations and their footballing history, but I wouldn't say Perú are more "giant" than Mexico mate.  I'd say quite the opposite...  Maybe you can blame that on the CONCACAF and what you like but the impression in Europe is that Mexico is a bigger nation in football terms...  By quite some distance too!

Maybe it's because some of Mexico's footballers have reached the legendary pinnacle of football in this continent, I don't know. But I've always also looked at the awarding of the World Cup as something that creates and withholds status....  (Not these days mind you with political and marketing powers...  I'm on about the past).

They aren't bigger footballing giants at all mate.

They are a bigger football name and by quite some distance, but giants, nope.

They still have a grand total of 0 copa americas and have yet to have a player as good as Cubillas or Chumpitaz. They've had few better than Claudio Pizarro! He's not even one of our 5 best ever players.

Maybe when they reach a World Cup semi final with a world class tecatico or lozano then I'll change my stance.

[SirBalon]

Just now, El_Loco said:

@SirBalon , I'm curious. Do you think Spain can be put in the same bracket of Germany, Brazil, Argentina, etc, in terms of football tradition? 

Never in terms of success although Argentina only have one more World Cup than Spain.  But as in footballing tradition, yes!  Everything from club level to hosting a World Cup and a European Championship tells you this.  Spain's footballing tradition isn't in question at all but if you want to make a ranking system as to where they are at the top (because that's where they would be overall) then I would be very curious and ready to debate it mate.

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, Blue said:

They are a bigger football name and by quite some distance, but giants, nope.

I don't think either of the two are "giants" in footballing history.

4 minutes ago, Blue said:

They still have a grand total of 0 copa americas and have yet to have a player as good as Cubillas or Chumpitaz. They've had few better than Claudio Pizarro! He's not even one of our 5 best ever players.

You know how much I rate Cubillas who is very unknown unfortunately by most footballing fans in Europe.  The other Peruvian players you've named and a few others you haven't also belong in footballing folklore, but the question is why has Mexico got a bigger aura than Perú?  And I'm talking about a much much bigger name.

[El Profesor]

2 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I know quite a bit about both nations and their footballing history, but I wouldn't say Perú are more "giant" than Mexico mate.  I'd say quite the opposite...  Maybe you can blame that on the CONCACAF and what you like but the impression in Europe is that Mexico is a bigger nation in football terms...  By quite some distance too!

Maybe it's because some of Mexico's footballers have reached the legendary pinnacle of football in this continent, I don't know. But I've always also looked at the awarding of the World Cup hosting as something that creates and withholds status....  (Not these days mind you with political and marketing powers...  I'm on about the past).

Agree with you. Mexico is a power to be respected in world football. I'd put them in the same bracket of Nigeria, above Peru. They have a decent NT, always qualify, Olympic title, U-17 World title, teams like América, one of the most iconic stadiums like Azteca, well-known players such as Blanco and Hugo Sánchez.

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, El_Loco said:

Agree with you. Mexico is a power to be respected in world football. I'd put them in the same bracket of Nigeria, above Peru. They have a decent NT, always qualify, Olympic title, U-17 World title, teams like América, one of the most iconic stadiums like Azteca, well-known players such as Blanco and Hugo Sánchez.

I'm curious mate...  Genuinely am!

So why in your opinion has Mexico managed to create this aura in world football?

Not that they're considered a giant, but they are considered one of the "mythical" footballing nations and yet they reside in the CONCACAF when for many they should be (obviously not geographically) in the CONMEBOL (culturally).

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I don't think either of the two are "giants" in footballing history.

You know how much I rate Cubillas who is very unknown unfortunately by most footballing fans in Europe.  The other Peruvian players you've named and a few others you haven't also belong in footballing folklore, but the question is why has Mexico got a bigger aura than Perú?  And I'm talking about a much much bigger name.

Neither of us are giants, yeah. I say that "the giants that are Peru have awakened" because of how long we've waited for this as a nation with a more rich football history than you'd expect. I'd still easily have us above Mexico on the "giant" scale though. They qualify for World Cups in a piss poor confederation and are the kings of winning irrelevant trophies. When they win a World Cup or a Copa America, then we will talk.

Mexico have always been more of a football name though, which isn't saying much really. They are historically more of a name than Chile too, but that doesn't mean they have ever been better than Chile.

I'm extremely familiar with the 1970's team. Cesar Cueto, Roberto Chale, Hugo Sotil, Ramon Quiroga among others, but the 2 that must be mentioned are Cubillas and Chumpitaz as both are among one of the best in their position in history while the others were just excellent. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I'm curious mate...  Genuinely am!

So why in your opinion has Mexico managed to create this aura in world football?

Not that they're considered a giant, but they are considered one of the "mythical" footballing nations and yet they reside in the CONCACAF when for many they should be (obviously not geographically) in the CONMEBOL (culturally).

Honestly if it was possible I wouldn't be against Mexico to play in CONMEBOL. Like Australia, it would hugely improve their football situation and might actually make them decent.

They have a good league and have had good players but have the arrogance by beating minnows and that's held them back in the football world I'm afraid. In CONMEBOL they wouldn't qualify for every World Cup, but the ones they do qualify for they'd do a lot better than if they were in CONCACAF.

[El Profesor]

6 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I'm curious mate...  Genuinely am!

So why in your opinion has Mexico managed to create this aura in world football?

Not that they're considered a giant, but they are considered one of the "mythical" footballing nations and yet they reside in the CONCACAF when for many they should be (obviously not geographically) in the CONMEBOL.

Televisa is a media giant and mexican-americans in the english football media also help to amplify their reach. Mexico is a strong nation and a regional leader. Many don't realize it because of their proximity with US, but Mexico is an important country, and it is also true in football. When you see a guy like Gignac, who had a market in Europe, going to Tigres, you gotta realize they have money and power. If anything, they're kind of underachievers. 

[Guest]

Hugo Sanchez was not better than Cubillas I'm afraid.

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Blue said:

Honestly if it was possible I wouldn't be against Mexico to play in CONMEBOL. Like Australia, it would hugely improve their football situation and might actually make them decent.

They have a good league and have had good players but have the arrogance by beating minnows and that's held them back in the football world I'm afraid. In CONMEBOL they wouldn't qualify for every World Cup, but the ones they do qualify for they'd do a lot better than if they were in CONCACAF.

Yeah, but Australia (as much as you seem to love them) don't belong culturally in the CONMEBOL where Mexico does 100%.

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Teso dos Bichos said:

Good point about the u17 title how many titles have peru won of those

This is also an extremely important point for me.

[Guest]

Just now, SirBalon said:

Yeah, but Australia (as much as you seem to love them) don't belong culturally in the CONMEBOL where Mexico does 100%.

You mean AFC

Mexico does belong with us. I would like them to move to CONMEBOL some day. They have a great potential and have had some very good players but their arrogance has let them down. 

Look at the 7-0 loss to Chile. They lost to a better team, but they lost by that margin because they aren't used to playing teams of this stature (often anyways) and believed that they were better simply because of a few earlier wins. They have a huge football mentality problem and its a shame to see what could be a great football nation let down by fans who hype up their own team despite being complete underachievers in reality.

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Blue said:

Hugo Sanchez was not better than Cubillas I'm afraid.

I'm not so sure mate...  Hugo Sánchez was tried and tested in Europe...  He is considered one of La Liga's legendary footballers and if I were to go through the names that are considered as such in La Liga history you would then appreciate how big Hugo Sánchez was.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

This is also an extremely important point for me.

We've won titles at youth level, but I don't hype those up. Only if its the U20, where the players are actually professional.

We had a brilliant U17 side in 2007. From that team only 2 are on the NT now.

[El Profesor]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

Yeah, but Australia (as much as you seem to love them) don't belong culturally in the CONMEBOL where Mexico does 100%.

Problem is: the trips to Mexico are too long for Cono Sur nations. There is no way CONCACAF would accept it. Also, if you can't separate US and Mexico, you'd be killing a nice rivalry.

[Guest]

Just now, SirBalon said:

I'm not so sure mate...  Hugo Sánchez was tried and tested in Europe...  He is considered one of La Liga's legendary footballers and if I were to go through the names that are considered as such in La Liga history you would then appreciate how big Hugo Sánchez was.

I'll admit I've not seen Hugo Sanchez where as I have seen Cubillas, but I've had several people tell me Cubillas was better (not just Peruvians). I take their word.

Besides, Hugo Sanchez played much later than Teofilo. its not like he didn't play in Europe either. He played for Porto, which was a great place to be in at the time.

[Guest]

Just now, El_Loco said:

Problem is: the trips to Mexico are too long for Cono Sur nations. There is no way CONCACAF would accept it. Also, if you can't separate US and Mexico, you'd be killing a nice rivalry.

Meh, not really an excuse to me mate. They've participated in the Copa Libertadores and its not like the Chilean teams have a whole ton of money.

Agree that CONCACAF wouldn't accept it though. They are too valuable for them.

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, El_Loco said:

Problem is: the trips to Mexico are too long for Cono Sur nations. There is no way CONCACAF would accept it. Also, if you can't separate US and Mexico, you'd be killing a nice rivalry.

I have to go to a birthday celebration...  Funnily enough one is Brazilian and the other is a Mexican 

I'll put this debate to them...  I'll be back later to respond mate! 

[El Profesor]

1 minute ago, Blue said:

Meh, not really an excuse to me mate. They've participated in the Copa Libertadores and its not like the Chilean teams have a whole ton of money.

Agree that CONCACAF wouldn't accept it though. They are too valuable for them.

Brazilian teams, the most important based in Southeastern, hate going to Mexico. They always complain about the trips. I mean, if Tijuana is in the competition, you basically are playing in San Diego. It's brutal. Imagine playing in Montevideo and 5 days later in Tijuana. Not nice at all.

[Guest]

Just now, El_Loco said:

Brazilian teams, the most important based in Southeastern, hate going to Mexico. They always complain about the trips. I mean, if Tijuana is in the competition, you basically are playing in San Diego. It's brutal. Imagine playing in Montevideo and 5 days later in Tijuana. Not nice at all.

I agree they aren't great trips but it shouldn't be an issue for national teams. Maybe Bolivia and that's about it. Club level is different.

Like I said I would welcome Mexico to South America with open arms. It would do their football good to actually play in a proper football continent. However, there is more of a chance of CONMEBOL merging with CONCACAF than Mexico to just join.

[El Profesor]

Just now, Blue said:

I agree they aren't great trips but it shouldn't be an issue for national teams. Maybe Bolivia and that's about it. Club level is different.

Like I said I would welcome Mexico to South America with open arms. It would do their football good to actually play in a proper football continent. However, there is more of a chance of CONMEBOL merging with CONCACAF than Mexico to just join.

Agree. It makes sense to merge the federations. Not now, because the logística are still complicated, but in 30-50 years certainly. Our teams would gladly welcome mexican pesos and american dollars. 😂