Mel81x 3,392 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/41715159 Just read this and think its weird that this is even something that needs discussing. If a player has to choose let them choose one country and stick with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Batard 2,515 Posted October 24, 2017 Administrator Share Posted October 24, 2017 George Weahs son, the lad is a hell of a talent. He was born in New York and plays for the United States. And to me, that right there is the immediate criteria. You play for the country of your birth. Ok so your family emigrate immediately after your birth and you gain citizenship for another country. Then what? A choice over nationality has to be made early, but an informed not capriciously. That’s effectively part of the old system which was considered inflexible. I don’t really see a problem with it to be honest, unless it’s been exploited. For Weah the younger, say Liberia were a powerhouse of international football, I don’t believe he should have the option to play for them through his birth. He was born and raised an American citizen. Ultimately, unless the maps are changing and new countries established, players need to make advisable choices early into their senior careers. And that’s the crux of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True Blue 970 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 It would be hard to track someone's heritage etc, i would go with Batard on this one. If your are born in France you are French and you can't play for Nigeria or the other way around, just because your parents immigrated years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 17,516 Posted October 24, 2017 Administrator Share Posted October 24, 2017 32 minutes ago, True Blue said: It would be hard to track someone's heritage etc, i would go with Batard on this one. If your are born in France you are French and you can't play for Nigeria or the other way around, just because your parents immigrated years ago. these days it's not as hard as it used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 In 2004, Antar Yahia made history when becoming the first player to represent one national team at senior level having played for another at youth level. Yahia, who would go on to send Algeria to the 2010 World Cup, had played for France's Under-18 side. Previously, a footballer who had played for one country in a competitive international at both senior and junior level was not permitted to change nationality. All that above is rubbish! A lie, or whoever said it is a fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel81x 3,392 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 31 minutes ago, SirBalon said: In 2004, Antar Yahia made history when becoming the first player to represent one national team at senior level having played for another at youth level. Yahia, who would go on to send Algeria to the 2010 World Cup, had played for France's Under-18 side. Previously, a footballer who had played for one country in a competitive international at both senior and junior level was not permitted to change nationality. All that above is rubbish! A lie, or whoever said it is a fool. You see in that case I don't think what was done is right. You've already represented a nation irrespective of your age and that was the one you (or someone helped you) choose. You can't just go going around claiming heritage when it suits your fancy. Now, had he not chosen and not represented that's a completely different story. I also think its fine if you got exiled from your country and had to gain citizenship elsewhere but emmigration (with intent to change country of representation) post representation is not something I think is right. Sure, there are legal loopholes around this as well that could involve other diplomatic interventions but at the end of the day that probably accounts for less than 1% of the professional footballing world and those special cases shouldn't give FIFA any right to have a say in this matter ... period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Honey 3,699 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I disagree with pinning someone down to the location of their birth. I've always thought you should be eligible to play for the country you went to school in under the age of 16. This is the place that educated you and developed you as a footballer. None of this your nan had a fortnight camping in the valleys and now you can play for Wales crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 17,516 Posted October 24, 2017 Administrator Share Posted October 24, 2017 5 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said: I disagree with pinning someone down to the location of their birth. I've always thought you should be eligible to play for the country you went to school in under the age of 16. This is the place that educated you and developed you as a footballer. None of this your nan had a fortnight camping in the valleys and now you can play for Wales crap. what if you went to various schools in different countries? Or you may develop as a footballer later in life after 16? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewolf 7,020 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, HoneyNUFC said: I disagree with pinning someone down to the location of their birth. I've always thought you should be eligible to play for the country you went to school in under the age of 16. This is the place that educated you and developed you as a footballer. None of this your nan had a fortnight camping in the valleys and now you can play for Wales crap. It would take more than a fortnight of sleeping in a tent in the valleys before some would kick a ball for Wales mate lets be honest... sounds more like a double punishment.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Honey 3,699 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 21 minutes ago, Stan said: what if you went to various schools in different countries? Or you may develop as a footballer later in life after 16? If you go to multiple schools then that's fine, play for whoever, maybe with a 3 year rule. I'd also make an exception for refugees. Playing for a country solely on the basis of genetic inheritance is racialist Nationality is not blood. It is not heritable and it is not determined by the location you took your first breath. Nationality is an ever evolving cultural influence on your way of life on the basis of where you're at. We need some cut off point for football because it is a game of 16-40 year olds, which is why I say your nationalities at 16 years old are the ones you take into your football career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Honey 3,699 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, Bluewolf said: It would take more than a fortnight of sleeping in a tent in the valleys before some would kick a ball for Wales mate lets be honest... sounds more like a double punishment.. Paul Dummett plays for Wales and he's about as Welsh as sushi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said: Nationality is not blood. It is not heritable and it is not determined by the location you took your first breath. This is actually not the case as a blanket rule. There are even biological differences in some areas of the world and I can use an example from my parent's country Spain with the Basques (true Basques). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panna King 1,012 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Birth place really doesnt mean anything, You could be born in the middle east to European Parents who might have had to relocate there due to work reasons for a few years, so does that make you an Arab? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Mel81x said: You see in that case I don't think what was done is right. You've already represented a nation irrespective of your age and that was the one you (or someone helped you) choose. You can't just go going around claiming heritage when it suits your fancy. Now, had he not chosen and not represented that's a completely different story. I also think its fine if you got exiled from your country and had to gain citizenship elsewhere but emmigration post representation is not something I think is right. Sure, there are legal loopholes around this as well that could involve other diplomatic interventions but at the end of the day that probably accounts for less than 1% of the professional footballing world and those special cases shouldn't give FIFA any right to have a say in this matter ... period. Alfredo di Stéfano played for Argentina, Colombia and Spain... There are dozens of players from the past that played competitively in international tournaments for various countries mate. For me it should be a choice left to the individual for whatever reasons he puts forward and obviously once chosen, that's it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panna King 1,012 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Germany have a big Identity crisis if you are talking about Heritage. They have a number of players from Polish, Turkish, North African and Central Africa back grounds which have no representation of any German colonies. Ozil for example won't even sing the German National anthem as he doesn't want to offend his Turkish dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Honey 3,699 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Just now, SirBalon said: This is actually not the case as a blanket rule. There are even biological differences in some areas of the world and I can use an example from my parent's country Spain with the Basques (true Basques). That is the racialism I am talking about. The desire to believe nationality is race and the failure to distinguish between the two. Nationality is a social creation, you do not require any genetic similarity to become of a nation. The shape of your skull or the colour of your skin has nothing to do with a socially created nation state, it is largely down to a lack of migration across dozens and dozens of generations and has no baring on what a nationality would be today. "Spain" just happens to be the name of a socially constructed ruling country at the time and location of your parents birth. It is totally irrelevant to race. Many of those genetics are likely to have existed in that small pocket long before Spain was created. Should we all play for West African countries because we are human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Just now, HoneyNUFC said: That is the racialism I am talking about. The desire to believe nationality is race and the failure to distinguish between the two. It is indeed racialism... But it doesn't stop it being factual mate! True Basques have unified genetic similarities and are very distinctive from anything else anywhere. I'm sure there may be other cases in other parts of the world but I can't quote them off the top of my head right now without making errors which in a case such as this it's very sensitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panna King 1,012 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 10 minutes ago, SirBalon said: Alfredo di Stéfano played for Argentina, Colombia and Spain... There are dozens of players from the past that played competitively in international tournaments for various countries mate. For me it should be a choice left to the individual for whatever reasons he puts forward and obviously once chosen, that's it! I agree it should be down to the individual but based on their parents and should be a limit to how far you can go back otherwise you have a problem like with the Republic of Ireland's teams in the 80s and 90's you were eligible to play for them if your great grandad had a pint of Guinness in any Irish county. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panna King 1,012 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Wales at the moment are abusing the system calling anyone up that is a bit Welsh in their family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Just now, VanPaddy said: I agree it should be down to the individual but based on their parents and should be a limit to how far you can go back otherwise you have a problem like with the Republic of Ireland's teams in the 80s and 90's you were eligible to play for them if your great grandad had a pint of Guinness in any Irish county. Indeed there should be rules set to make it relative to nationality. Grandparents isn't going to far for me... Some people continue to be brought up culturally in that manner and that also counts as a sentiment of identity. Obviously a line must be drawn and I would accept grandparents being a step too far although I wouldn't be in agreement through free option. There are people born in one country to parents from another with two passports (nation of birth and of parents) and brought up in the manner of "back home". It seems that those with problems to accept this sentiment are those countries with a high index of traditional historic immigration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewolf 7,020 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, HoneyNUFC said: Paul Dummett plays for Wales and he's about as Welsh as sushi. I have tried Sushi and it was as awful as Dummett it has to be said.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panna King 1,012 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 After the Huddersfield win against Man Utd, The Dutch pundits were going on about Aaron Mooy because he has Dutch Nationality due to his Parents being Dutch but lived in Australia. Mooy is of Dutch heritage, and on his left shoulder, he has the words "Leven, Lachen, Liefde" tattooed, which translate to "Live, Love, Laugh". His mother, Sam, has the same words on her wrist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverted 1,752 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I don't think it's as simple as place of birth, but I think in most cases it's fairly easy to say what someone's nationality is. If you're born somewhere but move away in your infancy, you belong to the nation you grew up in. Even if both your parents are of a certain nationality, if you grow up in another nation, with that language as your main language, that's your country. Of course there are grey areas: Giggs for example was born in Wales and grew up in both England and Wales, and has an English accent. In that case it's really up to how the individual feels. But I can't buy it when somebody plays for a country they at most visited relatives in sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Honey 3,699 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 1 hour ago, SirBalon said: It is indeed racialism... But it doesn't stop it being factual mate! True Basques have unified genetic similarities and are very distinctive from anything else anywhere. I'm sure there may be other cases in other parts of the world but I can't quote them off the top of my head right now without making errors which in a case such as this it's very sensitive. Eh. Race can be geographically mapped to certain locations but that is irrelevant to nationality. They are not even remotely the same thing except to people with racist ideologies. You can be any nationality but you cannot be any race. Nationality is just the culture and border of the day, subject to change within an individual's life time. Your race won't change. You cannot genetically inherit culture, habit or obedience to a nation, aka nationality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said: Eh. Race can be geographically mapped to certain locations but that is irrelevant to nationality. They are not even remotely the same thing except to people with racist ideologies. You can be any nationality but you cannot be any race. Nationality is just the culture and border of the day, subject to change within an individual's life time. Your race won't change. You cannot genetically inherit culture, habit or obedience to a nation, aka nationality, without being there. Very true, but you can't deny and it's wrong to try and eradicate sentiment based on either of the two points. As long as the sentiments aren't based on any superiority complex (based on race) then I have no problem with anyone's sentiment and reason for choice. Culture and habits are a very big part of a sentiment of belonging and each individual isn't harming anything by making a choice. There is political nationality and then there is cultural nationality.... If with the two you have the privilege to choose in something as trivial as football, then there isn't a problem. People CAN actually feel they belong to two places for those affected by a particular situation and in some cases this is what's at stake here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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