Iranian Protests

[Fairy In Boots]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't believe that anyone is inherently better than anyone because of their nationality or ethnicity... but in this case... I'll take it lol.

The Shah's biggest mistake, other than being totally shite at managing an economy and creating massive inflation that probably got more people to turn against him than he otherwise could, was the way he tried to force about being secular. Now you and I have had debates on whether or not Islam is inherently bad... but I think all religion is inherently bad, especially in extremes. The Shah did a lot to offend a lot of moderate Muslims and push them towards the open arms of hardline Shiite Fundamentalists that would ultimately create the Islamic Republic, especially by having his police going around Tehran pulling headscarves off people. I think a secular country should still be tolerant of those who want to practice religion (so long as those people aren't hurting anybody).

Obviously now... there's far less religious tolerance in Iran. And a lot of the many groups that stood alongside the mullahs in 1979 for the revolution were quickly betrayed and purged from the government. And when I say purged, I mean they were rounded up and tortured and killed. I don't think I need to tell you how fucking brutal and barbaric the current regime is - the Shah was bad for the people of Iran as an authoritarian... but the Islamic Republic of Iran makes him look like a fucking saint.

Right now, Iran is screaming out for modernisation. The fact the Guardian Council (12 old extra-religious hardliners men appointed by Khameini) has a say in who can/cannot run for any sort of political office puts a huge barrier on any sort of political reformation though. There are two major factions in Iran, as I'm sure you know, the hardliners and the reformists. But how much reformation can we really expect from politicians who are still largely clerics and allowed to hold office by the Guardian Council. The "democracy" in Iran is inherently undemocratic - and it's got the same problems with election rigging found in some of Iran's closest allies in Syria and Russia.

So unfortunately, for us to see the sort of change we want in Iran... it's likely going to take another revolution toppling the Islamic Republic over a political movement to fundamentally change the system - because the system is rigged against that. And the regime has done a good job of consolidating power and making certain political views disappear from the scope of political discourse in the country. And I think for any revolution to be successful in Iran, it has to come within the country (because if democracy is government for the people, by the people - we can't fall into the US trap of "democracy building," which is government for the people, by the US government. I'm sure we both agree that the US fucking failed massively in Iraq and Afghanistan with that. And considering that for the last 100 years, the US/UK/Russia have all interfered with Iran's domestic politics (strangely, the US and UK are traditionally reviled for this - but Russia's been doing it the longest and they've maintained good relations with Iran, despite their crackdown on the Tudeh party and other leftists the USSR was funding in the Cold War) with disastrous results for the American people.

Ultimately, it's just a very shite situation for Iranians. It's easy for us to sit on the sidelines and hope for a revolution, but we're talking about a brutal government that's got no qualms torturing and killing it's dissidents to silence them. But still, I'm hoping for a revolution that brings about a secular democracy to Iran.

It’s cultures that aren’t equal, not humans. We’re all shaped by our environment and culture is part of that, Persian culture broadly speaking is the best of the central Asian cultures in the Middle East. You’ve got desert Bedouin to the south and goat herding nomadic horse wranglers to the north.  It’s the same in Europe it’s because the best culture (Greek)dominated it seeped into the lesser cultures and they improved because of it (Rome). 

This in a nutshell is why I fear Islam so much, because it’s a culture killer and as you pointed out agents working alongside are ruthlessly betrayed after. 

Anyway I agree with the rest of it, Russia have succeeded in retaining influence globally because with collapse of the USSR they can play it off as “it wasn’t  us we were fucked, it’s the yanks” to which America have helped them no end.

[Inverted]

I think Iran is interesting because you have a religious hardliner government, but it lacks the real authoritarian legitimacy of other similar states. The population is unusually connected with the rest of the world, has some experience of secular government, is structurally very young, and it has a rich pre-Islamic culture and history to draw on when it comes to their identity. Saudi Arabia for example has no cultural achievments to speak of that aren't tied to their religion, and that religion and the Sauds' role in unifying Arabia, and claim as the rulers of the holy cities, gives them a legitimacy that's absolutely fundamental to the very existence of the state. There's no competing source of legitimacy to the Sauds'.

The government of Iran are just reactionaries who snuck into power by piggy-backing on a revolution they didn't start. They can drive around Tehran and confiscate and smash a few antennas, but ultimately one gets the feeling that the Iranian people have not so much been subjected by their government, as they have been grudingly tolerant of it.

That's why I believe it's within their own capacity to get rid of it, no foreign help needed. If old school Iran-Iraq era loyalists are turning, that's already a huge blow, since repelling Saddam is one of the few sincere experiences the government can draw upon to unite it with the people.

If the government flies in Afghans or Syrians, that risks being the absolute abdication of its credibility. I think we'll see a secular Iran in the next few decades, and it will be a great thing.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

18 hours ago, Inverted said:

I think Iran is interesting because you have a religious hardliner government, but it lacks the real authoritarian legitimacy of other similar states. The population is unusually connected with the rest of the world, has some experience of secular government, is structurally very young, and it has a rich pre-Islamic culture and history to draw on when it comes to their identity. Saudi Arabia for example has no cultural achievments to speak of that aren't tied to their religion, and that religion and the Sauds' role in unifying Arabia, and claim as the rulers of the holy cities, gives them a legitimacy that's absolutely fundamental to the very existence of the state. There's no competing source of legitimacy to the Sauds'.

The government of Iran are just reactionaries who snuck into power by piggy-backing on a revolution they didn't start. They can drive around Tehran and confiscate and smash a few antennas, but ultimately one gets the feeling that the Iranian people have not so much been subjected by their government, as they have been grudingly tolerant of it.

That's why I believe it's within their own capacity to get rid of it, no foreign help needed. If old school Iran-Iraq era loyalists are turning, that's already a huge blow, since repelling Saddam is one of the few sincere experiences the government can draw upon to unite it with the people.

If the government flies in Afghans or Syrians, that risks being the absolute abdication of its credibility. I think we'll see a secular Iran in the next few decades, and it will be a great thing.

 

Flying in Palestinians and Syrians into Iran to literally beat down dissent is something Iran did during the 2009 Green Movement. They also pay them and give them signs and teach them chants so they can have their own pro-government protests and point at how much support there is. In 2009, a few Palestinians refused to smash in protestors heads... and they were taken to the infamous Evin prison - I don't know what happened to them or if they were ever released.

I also don't think the brutality of the Islamic Republic of Iran should be understated. These people haven't just grudgingly tolerated theocratic authoritarian rule - in the decade after the revolution, there was a very crackdown on the various dissenters. I've got a few family members that were murdered as a result of that shite. It was the "Iranian culture revolution" and shitloads of people were affected and it had a widespread effect on Iran in general. And let's not forget, whenever there are protests like in 2009 or recently, the first act the government does is to close the country off from it's access to the rest of the world. And I speak from experience, they're effective at cutting off our ability to figure out what the fuck is actually going on.

I also think we'll see a secular Iran in a few decades. But it would require a new revolution basically, the system of governance that the mullahs have put in place is inherently set up against people using the ballot box to return to being secular.

In the West, there are a few groups that very much want to push for western intervention to stoke about a new revolution. But if you look at who the groups are, it doesn't indicate that things will be better for Iranians. MEK have constantly pushed for a revolution where they would end up in power, courting the US and EU - but it shouldn't be forgotten that they 1.) originally held a very anti-western ideology, 2.) are incredibly unpopular because they sided with fucking Saddam in the Iraqi invasion of Iran and fought against Iranians - they're largely considered traitors. Mohammed Reza Pahlavi's grandson talks the right talk, but he also insists that Iran should have a constitutional monarchy... and I think that's stupid. He's the grandson of a dictator who's dynasty was deposed TWICE, and his grandfather was incredibly unpopular for a variety of reasons. And then you've got the people like Bill Kristol, John McCain, and various American-Israeli conservative lobby groups that are pushing for backing a side in Iranian regime change.

So what I think will lead to an eventual revolution will be the IRI's continual mismanagement of the Iranian economy and the continuing to start shit with Israel and Saudi Arabia. More of the middle class need to feel the same economic strain that the lower class in Iran are going through right now - because while prices have gone up significantly, the lower class are the ones that are failing to afford food. In 1979 Iran had people of all socio-economic standing united against the Shah because of a massive economic collapse. Iran is on track for something similar now... but it will take time. And unfortunately, it will mean harder times for more Iranians. But long term, a secular and democratic Iran would be sooooo cool.

Although there's a good chance any revolution goes tits up and we don't end up with a secular and democratic Iran.

[Dr. Gonzo]

There's new footage of more recent Iranian protests. I'll just post the one I think is the most interesting.

Here's Qom - Iran's most conservative city; where Mullahs and religious leaders are trained & with lots of holy sites. Here's a large group of Iranians chanting "Death to Hezbollah" - perhaps they're sick of having Hezbollah brought in to crack their skulls open when they take to the streets because they're upset they can't buy fucking bread or eggs because their money has been made completely worthless.

That might not seem like a big deal, considering the protests that have been coming and going in Iran. But it really is because of the city it's in - Qom is the most conservative and pro-regime area in the country. It's a haven for the hardliners in the Iranian government. So anti-regime protests there are a big deal.

But now Trump is bringing back US Sanctions to Iran, and their economy is already in a very precarious situation. This is leading to people hoarding gold in the country, because the currency is not stable and the value drops constantly. And you can guess what the Mullahs are doing with their money that's currently in Iran...

[Beelzebub]

I hope Iran gets out of the Islamic world.

 

[Berserker]

1 hour ago, Devon Von Devon said:

I hope Iran gets out of the Islamic world.

 

They hardly will, i don't know about the general people but their regime are one of the most extreme ones at that. They ordered 2 bombings here to Hamas in the 90s to Jewish-related organizations killing around 100 people and injuring more and a lot of those people weren't even Jewish to begin with and the bastards who made the calls are well known but still free.

[Beelzebub]

9 minutes ago, Berserker said:

They hardly will, i don't know about the general people but their regime are one of the most extreme ones at that. They ordered 2 bombing here to Hamas in the 90s to Jewish-related organizations killing around 100 people and injuring more and a lot of those people weren't even Jewish to begin with and the bastards who made the calls are well known but still free.

Average Iranian is 0 to 20 % religious.

Look at Dr Gonzo, Iranians become Westernise within 6 months coming to West.

Thats my problem because Shias in my country care more about Iran than their own country because they think Iran as a Utopia of their sect while Iranians care fuck all about religion.

[Dr. Gonzo]

20 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

Average Iranian is 0 to 20 % religious.

Look at Dr Gonzo, Iranians become Westernise within 6 months coming to West.

Thats my problem because Shias in my country care more about Iran than their own country because they think Iran as a Utopia of their sect while Iranians care fuck all about religion.

I was born in England  to an English father also. I'm probably not the best representation of Iran.

[Beelzebub]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I was born in England  to an English father also. I'm probably not the best representation of Iran.

An average second generation Paki/Arab/Bengali in West etc are more sticked to their roots than an Iranian. Iranians are more easily Westernised.

 

[SirBalon]

26 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

Average Iranian is 0 to 20 % religious.

Look at Dr Gonzo, Iranians become Westernise within 6 months coming to West.

Thats my problem because Shias in my country care more about Iran than their own country because they think Iran as a Utopia of their sect while Iranians care fuck all about religion.

Mate, remember one important thing!  A nationality and a country is NEVER a religion for obvious reasons because otherwise anything other than a Christian wouldn't be welcome or permitted to live under any other ideals than Christianity in a predominantly Christian nation.

This mentality  is Infact the problem and why in some Islamic countries people of other faiths find it difficult to practise their beliefs and live to differing ideals.

In other words an Iranian (or anyone from any nation) should care about what they wish to care for, should be permitted to believe in what they wish to believe in and should practice any ideal in any which way they wish to do so (always where no harm or manipulation is inflicted on others of differing ideals or beliefs).

[Beelzebub]

@SirBalon i dont really know what your talking about.

Most Iranians that live in the West aren't really Muslims and they should openly express that but many dont.

Many would discuss Islam with an Iranian in the West considering him as a Muslim and since he isn't really a Muslim that would bother someone who is really a Muslim that he is being a represensitive of his community when he is not. Thats what i'm saying.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

An average second generation Paki/Arab/Bengali in West etc are more sticked to their roots than an Iranian. Iranians are more easily Westernised.

 

Probably has to do with having a more secular nation fairly recently. But again, I don't think you can make sweeping generalisations about people from a particular country in all honesty.

In Iran there's people who are devout Muslims. There are also people who don't really give a shit about religion. There were obviously enough religious people in Iran in 1978 to be pissed off enough about the Shah's headscarf ban, for instance. But it's true that not as many people in Iran are as extreme followers of religion as the Mullahs.

42 minutes ago, Berserker said:

They hardly will, i don't know about the general people but their regime are one of the most extreme ones at that. They ordered 2 bombing here to Hamas in the 90s to Jewish-related organizations killing around 100 people and injuring more and a lot of those people weren't even Jewish to begin with and the bastards who made the calls are well known but still free.

The general public is far less religious than the government. You can't run for office in Iran unless you've got the approval of Khameini (the Supreme Leader) and his council of guardians (12 people picked by Khameini that have the real ultimate say). Because it's the "Islamic" Republic of Iran, you basically have to be very fucking religious - or appear very fucking religious to be a part of the government. So the two groups in Iranian politics, the hardliners (the ultra-conservative members of the government) and the reformists... are both a real representation of religious extremism.

In the 1980s, a lot of the political parties that existed in Iran before the revolution were pretty heavily persecuted (especially the Tudeh party) and either made illegal or are defunct (because of shit like torture & killing the leaders of these parties). A lot of these parties were supporters of the revolution and were part of what made it possible - they were fed false promises by Khomeini (the first Supreme Leader) and then ultimately fucked over. Some of them pretty brutally, unfortunately. Some of the parties were/are also colossal shitbags though - like MEK. I imagine if there was more open democracy, where a small group of the country DIDN'T have such restrictions on what the political atmosphere can have, you'd see a distinctly less religious Iran.

A part of the reason people are taking to the streets is because they're struggling with the insane inflation & unemployment, while the government is wasting money on internationally waging war with Israel and Saudi Arabia over religious bullshit. So that kind of shite isn't really something that has widespread public support at all.

[SirBalon]

11 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

@SirBalon i dont really know what your talking about.

Most Iranians that live in the West aren't really Muslims and they should openly express that but many dont.

Many would discuss Islam with an Iranian in the West considering him as a Muslim and since he isn't really a Muslim that would bother someone who is really a Muslim that he is being a represensitive of his community when he is not. Thats what i'm saying.

I'm saying that it doesn't matter if they're Muslims or not.  Remember that a land isn't religious, people are.  You are assuming all Iranians should be devout Muslims and I'm saying that this shouldn't be the case.  Also remember that before that piece of land inhabited predominantly Muslim people it housed people of earlier faiths.

[Beelzebub]

Just now, SirBalon said:

I'm saying that it doesn't matter if they're Muslims or not.  Remember that a land isn't religious, people are.  You are assuming all Iranians should be devout Muslims and I'm saying that this shouldn't be the case.  Also remember that before that piece of land inhabited predominantly Muslim people it housed people of earlier faiths.

I'm not assuming that i know Iran is very diverse. Those that have written on their paperwork that their Muslims and but they dont consider themselves Muslims neither do they believe in Islam those i'm talking about. Just go and change it.

[Beelzebub]

@SirBalon Do you consider yourself ex Christian ? You werent a Christian in the first place werent you ?

When they call you on a TV show to tell why you left Christianity and you will be like ' It never made sense to me ....' a real Christian would feel offended. You never left Chrisyianity because you never were part of it.

Thats what a lot of Iranians do they present themselves as ex Muslims but they were never Muslims.

 

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

I'm not assuming that i know Iran is very diverse. Those that have written on their paperwork that their Muslims and but they dont consider themselves Muslims neither do they believe in Islam those i'm talking about. Just go and change it.

Because people are intelligent, assimilate and integrate into society. A belief in a god shouldn't dominate ones sense of belonging and social integration.  In other words I'd call those people you are questioning, intelligent.

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Devon Von Devon said:

@SirBalon Do you consider yourself ex Christian ? You werent a Christian in the first place werent you ?

When they call you on a TV show to tell why you left Christianity and you will be like ' It never made sense to me ....' a real Christian would feel offended. You never left Chrisyianity because you never were part of it.

Thats what a lot of Iranians do they present themselves as ex Muslims but they were never Muslims.

 

I was born a Christian (Roman Catholic) by the measure of my parents which is how anyone is born of ANY Faith.

If someone was offended on my take on Christianity, I would have pity on them because their faith not only rules their own life but also rules over his/her belief on how I (as another person not connected to them in any way, shape or form) I choose to live my life.  Me having pity automatically takes me on to a superior plain to the one questioning my actions which do not invade the person who is offended's life in any manner.

You cannot judge, he cannot and she cannot judge!  If you believe in the god, you will also succumb to the understanding that the ONLY judgement whenever that God sees fit is when that God passes that judgment. The God is the only entity with ANY right to pass any form of justice based on judgment on any one of its creations.

We are both in agreement on what I have just written, aren't we?  I know we are because you are superior to that percentage you quoted on certain number of Iranians.  But it is against the law for you or I to pass any credible critical judgement upon them.

Assimilating into the culture you live within while maintaining the fundamental (emphasis on the fundamental rules) issues surrounding your faith in the God.

I couldn't give a cod's wallop what somebody else thinks of me.  Infact I feel sorry for them because obviously their life isn't fulfilled sufficiently.

[Beelzebub]

7 hours ago, SirBalon said:

I was born a Christian (Roman Catholic) by the measure of my parents which is how anyone is born of ANY Faith.

Sure any faith but not religion. You never got circumsied your parents never taught you how to pray your parents ate pork all the time despite them having Jewish background neither did you ever believed in following those things that rules you out from being born Jew . Remember religions have a code of conduct you have follow and if you never even want to follow it than you cant call yourself ex. Call yourself of any faith you want.

If someone was offended on my take on Christianity,

Do it as an outsider dont say i'm ex Christian while doing that when you never really got into that community. Its like me saying Spanish are wierd they make crazy animals chase after them and than they kill it. They throw food at each other at different festivals and waste it. While i pretend my voice is from inside the Spanish community because i was born in a half Spanish family and i know a bit of Spanish but i have never been to Spain neither i did those things myself so i dont really know how they work but my critcism is from inside the community because i was born in a half Spanish family whose parents didnt knew much Spanish.

I would have pity on them because their faith not only rules their own life but also rules over his/her belief on how I (as another person not connected to them in any way, shape or form) I choose to live my life.  Me having pity automatically takes me on to a superior plain to the one questioning my actions which do not invade the person who is offended's life in any manner.

You cannot judge, he cannot and she cannot judge!  If you believe in the god, you will also succumb to the understanding that the ONLY judgement whenever that God sees fit is when that God passes that judgment. The God is the only entity with ANY right to pass any form of justice based on judgment on any one of its creations.

We are both in agreement on what I have just written, aren't we?  I know we are because you are superior to that percentage you quoted on certain number of Iranians.  But it is against the law for you or I to pass any credible critical judgement upon them.

Assimilating into the culture you live within while maintaining the fundamental (emphasis on the fundamental rules) issues surrounding your faith in the God.

I couldn't give a cod's wallop what somebody else thinks of me.  Infact I feel sorry for them because obviously their life isn't fulfilled sufficiently.

 

[SirBalon]

2 hours ago, Devon Von Devon said:

Sure any faith but not religion. You never got circumsied your parents never taught you how to pray your parents ate pork all the time despite them having Jewish background neither did you ever believed in following those things that rules you out from being born Jew . Remember religions have a code of conduct you have follow and if you never even want to follow it than you cant call yourself ex. Call yourself of any faith you want.

I was circumcised, I was taught how to pray, my parents ate pork because we are permitted to eat pork and I eat pork because I have enough initiative to understand why it was banned in the first place.

If I were Jewish or a Muslim, I would do it the same because what hasn't happened in my upbringing is that I haven't been conditioned but I can't also ignore the conditioning I am susceptible to through centuries of power control.

A true person of faith (faith is the act of a religious dogma) understands the fundamentals behind their reverence to God and the things they must and mustn't do. I'll take my chances on ignoring the mundane stuff that I believe was a form to control plebs in the dark ages.

What's for sure though... It's not for you or any living being on this planet to judge or pass judgment in any way to someone else.  The only judgement you may asses in your lifetime is to yourself my friend and nobody else.

[Beelzebub]

I dont know why you are bringing in assimilation and integration into society but i finally found the right word which is the crux of my point.

I'm talking about impersonation !

If i start looking like you and talking like you and claim eveywhere that i'm SirBalon while wearing a Madrid shirt and saying i love Real Madrid they are better than Barcelona  than thats a crime not just i'm impersonating you i'm giving out a false image of you. That would really bother you.

Look at TrueBlue, a side of his family is Muslim but he doesn't claims to be a Muslim neither he believes he is one neither he believes there is anything wrong with drinking and pre matrial sex etc. No one cares

But when he strarts claiming he is a Muslim yet he still presists that there is nothing wrong with drinking and pre matrial sex etc than he is impersonating and giving out a false image of Muslims.

There was a show Shahs of Sunset where the main female character was Indian part Finish but the show producers passed on him as Persian. When she left the show she accepted that she wasn't Persian.

The Persian community showed their distress why they passed on domeone as Persian for such a long time when she was clearly not.

Do you think their argument is justified ?

 

 

[SirBalon]

22 minutes ago, Devon Von Devon said:

I dont know why you are bringing in assimilation and integration into society but i finally found the right word which is the crux of my point.

I'm talking about impersonation !

If i start looking like you and talking like you and claim eveywhere that i'm SirBalon while wearing a Madrid shirt and saying i love Real Madrid they are better than Barcelona  than thats a crime not just i'm impersonating you i'm giving out a false image of you. That would really bother you.

Look at TrueBlue, a side of his family is Muslim but he doesn't claims to be a Muslim neither he believes he is one neither he believes there is anything wrong with drinking and pre matrial sex etc. No one cares

But when he strarts claiming he is a Muslim yet he still presists that there is nothing wrong with drinking and pre matrial sex etc than he is impersonating and giving out a false image of Muslims.

There was a show Shahs of Sunset where the main female character was Indian part Finish but the show producers passed on him as Persian. When she left the show she accepted that she wasn't Persian.

The Persian community showed their distress why they passed on domeone as Persian for such a long time when she was clearly not.

Do you think their argument is justified ?

 

 

Impersonating me? (Let's forget about the sacrilege you've acted upon me by creating an imposter of my person wearing that evil costume)...

It depends what you mean by impersonating me mate...

If I were famous enough that I suddenly became an object of impersonation (on tv for the sake of argument), if the comedy was good and made me laugh then I'd love it although I'm sure I'd have to get someone to control my ego being over inflated. 

I haven't come to argue on this thread with you mate, not at all.  I came on this thread because you made a fundamental error by saying that someone of a particular nationality (that's someone born on a lawfully bordered land) must consider themselves of a particular religion.  I said to you that just because the predominant faith is Islam (I would've said the same thing had it been any other faith to whoever wrote the same thing) it doesn't mean or shouldn't mean that they should account themselves as Muslim when the question is one of "nationality" and the politics within that nation.

In this case @Dr. Gonzo may or may not be a devout Muslim, I do not know and neither is it for me or for anyone to question him upon it...   But the factual information we DO have on our friend is that he DOES have an Iranian background and with that he (in my balanced opinion.. I think I'm being balanced with this!) does have very good justifications and a right to have a sentiment of care and understanding to what's going on there...  He is connected by origin in a part of his bloodline (I don't like to use that "bloodline" word but it makes this simpler) to have a valid opinion.  Infact I would say more so than even a native if he really does study the situation because due to his disconnected upbringing he will or should be more compromising and balanced on his view.

As for @True Blue... In all the time I've known him on both forums we've been a part of, he has defended Islam against the bashers of that faith and has also been man enough and more importantly balanced, measured and peaceful enough to do it in a well mannered and ethical way.  It has always made me proud to read him when that has gone on due to his handling on the situation because in between his words I could see he was hurting with some of the things being written.  That in my opinion (not that I'm justified for understanding how the God works) would be something the God would be proud of and surely how he (the God) would want things to be conducted.

We are not a test and neither are we a game the God has put on this planet for his amusement to see who gives up first or breaks rules put in place for our well being of the time those rules were put in place for.

I am not a blaspheming person, I have respect for all faiths, I respect first and foremost PEOPLE when they conduct themselves in a manner that is mutual and not searching with an underlying tone to ridicule.  

[Beelzebub]

3 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Impersonating me? (Let's forget about the sacrilege you've acted upon me by creating an imposter of my person wearing that evil costume)...

It depends what you mean by impersonating me mate...

If I were famous enough that I suddenly became an object of impersonation (on tv for the sake of argument), if the comedy was good and made me laugh then I'd love it although I'm sure I'd have to get someone to control my ego being over inflated. 

I haven't come to argue on this thread with you mate, not at all.  I came on this thread because you made a fundamental error by saying that someone of a particular nationality (that's someone born on a lawfully bordered land) must consider themselves of a particular religion.

I never said that probbably its my poor English  i often get mistaken because i dont use the right words to explain my point.

 

 I said to you that just because the predominant faith is Islam (I would've said the same thing had it been any other faith to whoever wrote the same thing) it doesn't mean or shouldn't mean that they should account themselves as Muslim when the question is one of "nationality" and the politics within that nation.

In this case @Dr. Gonzo may or may not be a devout Muslim, I do not know and neither is it for me or for anyone to question him upon it...   But the factual information we DO have on our friend is that he DOES have an Iranian background and with that he (in my balanced opinion.. I think I'm being balanced with this!) does have very good justifications and a right to have a sentiment of care and understanding to what's going on there...  He is connected by origin in a part of his bloodline (I don't like to use that "bloodline" word but it makes this simpler) to have a valid opinion.  Infact I would say more so than even a native if he really does study the situation because due to his disconnected upbringing he will or should be more compromising and balanced on his view.

As for @True Blue... In all the time I've known him on both forums we've been a part of, he has defended Islam against the bashers of that faith and has also been man enough and more importantly balanced, measured and peaceful enough to do it in a well mannered and ethical way.  It has always made me proud to read him when that has gone on due to his handling on the situation because in between his words I could see he was hurting with some of the things being written.  That in my opinion (not that I'm justified for understanding how the God works) would be something the God would be proud of and surely how he (the God) would want things to be conducted.

We are not a test and neither are we a game the God has put on this planet for his amusement to see who gives up first or breaks rules put in place for our well being of the time those rules were put in place for.

I am not a blaspheming person, I have respect for all faiths, I respect first and foremost PEOPLE when they conduct themselves in a manner that is mutual and not searching with an underlying tone to ridicule.  

 

[SirBalon]

@Devon Von Devon

Quote

I never said that probbably its my poor English  i often get mistaken because i dont use the right words to explain my point.

But you did suddenly feel compelled and sentimental enough to start an issue with how devout an Iranian Muslim was to his faith and with that and other words it also seemed like you were assuming that all Iranians should be Muslim.

It wasn't your English mate, it was the context!

I always say the same thing to anyone even in my daily day to day life when they get all hooked up on something that in all honesty doesn't concern them... Look at yourself first!  Are you happy with the rules and ethical manner of living your life?  Keep it at that and you'll be fine.

Also... How can anyone get so embedded on a name?

What's in a name?

There is a much more important factor in all of this other than a name mate.

[Beelzebub]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

@Devon Von Devon

But you did suddenly feel compelled and sentimental enough to start an issue with how devout an Iranian Muslim was to his faith and with that and other words it also seemed like you were assuming that all Iranians should be Muslim.

It wasn't your English mate, it was the context!

I always say the same thing to anyone even in my daily day to day life when they get all hooked up on something that in all honesty doesn't concern them... Look at yourself first!  Are you happy with the rules and ethical manner of living your life?  Keep it at that and you'll be fine.

Also... How can anyone get so embedded on a name?

What's in a name?

There is a much more important factor in all of this other than a name mate.

Iran has the second largest Jew population after Israel in the Middle East every sane person knows that.

I'm not talking about how devout a person should be. One of my uncles drinks and i dont judge his faith but he knows what he is doing is wrong and he will be held responsible according to his faith.

I was pointing to those Iranians who dont even believe in the fundamentals of Islam but pass themselves as Muslims. Thats not just about being devout or not its now about impersonating.

[True Blue]

36 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Impersonating me? (Let's forget about the sacrilege you've acted upon me by creating an imposter of my person wearing that evil costume)...

It depends what you mean by impersonating me mate...

If I were famous enough that I suddenly became an object of impersonation (on tv for the sake of argument), if the comedy was good and made me laugh then I'd love it although I'm sure I'd have to get someone to control my ego being over inflated. 

I haven't come to argue on this thread with you mate, not at all.  I came on this thread because you made a fundamental error by saying that someone of a particular nationality (that's someone born on a lawfully bordered land) must consider themselves of a particular religion.  I said to you that just because the predominant faith is Islam (I would've said the same thing had it been any other faith to whoever wrote the same thing) it doesn't mean or shouldn't mean that they should account themselves as Muslim when the question is one of "nationality" and the politics within that nation.

In this case @Dr. Gonzo may or may not be a devout Muslim, I do not know and neither is it for me or for anyone to question him upon it...   But the factual information we DO have on our friend is that he DOES have an Iranian background and with that he (in my balanced opinion.. I think I'm being balanced with this!) does have very good justifications and a right to have a sentiment of care and understanding to what's going on there...  He is connected by origin in a part of his bloodline (I don't like to use that "bloodline" word but it makes this simpler) to have a valid opinion.  Infact I would say more so than even a native if he really does study the situation because due to his disconnected upbringing he will or should be more compromising and balanced on his view.

As for @True Blue... In all the time I've known him on both forums we've been a part of, he has defended Islam against the bashers of that faith and has also been man enough and more importantly balanced, measured and peaceful enough to do it in a well mannered and ethical way.  It has always made me proud to read him when that has gone on due to his handling on the situation because in between his words I could see he was hurting with some of the things being written.  That in my opinion (not that I'm justified for understanding how the God works) would be something the God would be proud of and surely how he (the God) would want things to be conducted.

We are not a test and neither are we a game the God has put on this planet for his amusement to see who gives up first or breaks rules put in place for our well being of the time those rules were put in place for.

I am not a blaspheming person, I have respect for all faiths, I respect first and foremost PEOPLE when they conduct themselves in a manner that is mutual and not searching with an underlying tone to ridicule.  

My reasons of defending Islam were very different. For example i don't regard myself as a religious person, i respect every religion and people that are religious. I feel that being a believer is something that is personal, that shouldn't be forced on anyone. Also saying that we aren't born with religion, our parents or our surroundings "force" the religion upon us. Basically if you are born in Saudi Arabia you won't be an Orthodox, but you get the point. For example my biological Dad is Orthodox and my Mum is a Muslim, both very normal and non extremist in any way. Basically seeing them in public you couldn't tell their religion. I was offended as there were posts that were like every Muslim should die etc, found it very personal not because of Islam but because of my mum. I never in my life rated someone by their religion, you can be what ever you like or please. I rate people by good or bad, same stands for race. Black or white makes no difference to me we are all the same.