Tuesday 20th February - Chelsea 1-1 Barcelona (1st Leg)

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

Not necessarily. That is too reductionist. While it is usually the easier method, I disagree that controlling the ball is the only method of controlling the game. 

I said in a previous post further up that it wasn’t the only way to control a game mate.  But what’s for sure is that (in my view) when you play a team that has a very large majority of possession that they have controlled the game because the ball is the object.

Its not the first time we’ve read a synopsis on a final result where a journalist will say that team ‘a’ controlled the game but that team ‘b’ capitalised on their chances and finally won.  That doesn’t mean that team ‘b’ weren’t worthy winners because the final objective is to put the ball in the back of the net and make it count!

Had Chelsea won tonight they’d have been worthy winners BUT I will also be adamant that had Barcelona won the same could be also said.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

You don’t know because he’s simply isn’t. The argumber is ridiculous and you’re the only one I’ve ever heard (apart from social media trolls) even contemplating in comparing both Messi and Neymar at this moment in time. What the future holds nobody knows, but right now they’re on different stratospheres.

That was never the argument and what I think is irrelavent. We were discussing whether this Messi is better than those of the past, and I think he isn't if I'm comparing him to Neymar.

Could be the system though. Valverde likes a more compact game from what I've seen and Messi can't always work brilliantly under those.

[Spike]

23 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I said in a previous post further up that it wasn’t the only way to control a game mate.  But what’s for sure is that (in my view) when you play a team that has a very large majority of possession that they have controlled the game because the ball is the object.

Its not the first time we’ve read a synopsis on a final result where a journalist will say that team ‘a’ controlled the game but that team ‘b’ capitalised on their chances and finally won.  That doesn’t mean that team ‘b’ weren’t worthy winners because the final objective is to put the ball in the back of the net and make it count!

Had Chelsea won tonight they’d have been worthy winners BUT I will also be adamant that had Barcelona won the same could be also said.

They were hardly in control with the match when Chelsea could break so regularly with high effect. My original argument was against you saying that Barcelona 'dominated' despite the fact the score was 1-1.

[SirBalon]

8 minutes ago, Blue said:

That was never the argument and what I think is irrelavent. We were discussing whether this Messi is better than those of the past, and I think he isn't if I'm comparing him to Neymar.

Could be the system though. Valverde likes a more compact game from what I've seen and Messi can't always work brilliantly under those.

But the consensus in Spain is that Messi is playing like an animal this season on the whole! 

The editor of MARCA only two weeks ago wrote on his weekly column that he was in the form of his life and that Valverde had made Messi offer things he hadn’t done until now.

Anyway... I’m seeing myself as a right old plonker getting into a debate about this because it’s a non debate to be had.

See it as you will. 

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

They were hardly in control with the match when Chelsea could break so regularly with high effect. My original argument was against you saying that Barcelona 'dominated' despite the fact the score was 1-1.

You can dominate and lose a game. It happens various times a year to many teams. I think maybe some people were expecting Guardiola’s greatest moments today and the curious thing is that Guardiola’s Barcelona struggled at Stamford Bridge and shrouded in controversy. 

[Spike]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

You can dominate and lose a game. It happens various times a year to many teams. I think maybe some people were expecting Guardiola’s greatest moments today and the curious thing is that Guardiola’s Barcelona struggled at Stamford Bridge and shrouded in controversy. 

I just disagree on Barcelona dominating. They were no better than Chelsea. While they held possession well, they weren't amazing with it, just like how Chelsea countered well but weren't amazing. I give the edge to Chelsea because I think they have been in average form lately and that was a step up in performance, whereas I always hold Barcelona to the highest standards because of Iniesta, Messi, and Suarez. Maybe it is because I watch them less so I know the ins and outs to a lesser degree.

It was a good game.

[Cicero]

I just hope for the love of Christ that we start with a striker at the Nou Camp. 

Other than the mistake leading to Barsa's goal, the worst thing about tonight was watching Hazard trying to hold up play against Pique and Umtiti. 

[Mel81x+]

10 minutes ago, Cicero said:

I just hope for the love of Christ that we start with a striker at the Nou Camp. 

Other than the mistake leading to Barsa's goal, the worst thing about tonight was watching Hazard trying to hold up play against Pique and Umtiti. 

Don't think you'll should use him in that position on the return leg and a striker starting would have served you'll better yesterday. I don't think this Barcelona team can't be taken at home but its going to take some real hard work to do so.

[Cicero]

7 minutes ago, Mel81x said:

Don't think you'll should use him in that position on the return leg and a striker starting would have served you'll better yesterday. I don't think this Barcelona team can't be taken at home but its going to take some real hard work to do so.

Agreed. Wasted so many counter attacks for the sole reason of not having an outlet. 

Stick Hazard on the left against Roberto ffs, he immediately played better when Morata came on. 

 Let Giroud give Umtiti and Pique something to think about and Let Willian lead the transition to which he's been brilliant at as of late. 

[Mel81x+]

7 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Agreed. Wasted so many counter attacks for the sole reason of not having an outlet. 

Stick Hazard on the left against Roberto ffs, he immediately played better when Morata came on. 

 Let Giroud give Umtiti and Pique something to think about and Let Willian lead the transition to which he's been brilliant at as of late. 

I think he does most of his damaging work on the wings when he's taking on defenders and forcing them to commit errors or commit to challenges opening up spaces and you're right when someone was in the middle and he was left to a more free-role he started to get better. Shame that none of that converted and you'll got a tie but there's still a second leg to go to. 

[Carnivore Chris]

6 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Runaway La Liga leaders only scraping a draw against a team battling for the top four in England. Pretty clear the EPL is back to being the best league in the world again.

It was Giróna vs Barcelona from earlier in the season all over again. I'm not sure what that proves.

Getafe stopped Barcelona scoring last week after parking a 10 man bus. What does this prove? 

If English clubs are back, it's due to the performances of the clubs in general in this round, not because a team gets a draw at home after parking a bus and playing with no strikers. It also only proves there is a strong top 5 in England and nothing more as we see nothing from the Europa clubs. 

[True Blue]

Overall very pleased with the performance, created enough chances to win, and conceded from our own mistake. If it didn't happen Barcelona wasn't near scoring today looked average at best. They had all the possession like usual but had no clear chances apart from obviously the goal. They take the better result to Spain but we had the better performance and tactic wise Conte was spot on. Only thing i would do differently is start a striker or get one on a bit earlier. If we repeat this performance again i can see us getting something out of the 2nd leg even tough we have never won at Nou Camp. Willy was excellent just like he has been for the past few months, also not to point fingers but Eden was very poor. Big stage fright? Or just knowing his level.

Bring on United and Conte - Jose fist fight. 

[RandoEFC+]

55 minutes ago, The Rebel CRS said:

It was Giróna vs Barcelona from earlier in the season all over again. I'm not sure what that proves.

Getafe stopped Barcelona scoring last week after parking a 10 man bus. What does this prove? 

If English clubs are back, it's due to the performances of the clubs in general in this round, not because a team gets a draw at home after parking a bus and playing with no strikers. It also only proves there is a strong top 5 in England and nothing more as we see nothing from the Europa clubs. 

Youre not up this early for a bit of  by any chance? 

[SirBalon]

3 hours ago, The Rebel CRS said:

It was Giróna vs Barcelona from earlier in the season all over again. I'm not sure what that proves.

Getafe stopped Barcelona scoring last week after parking a 10 man bus. What does this prove? 

If English clubs are back, it's due to the performances of the clubs in general in this round, not because a team gets a draw at home after parking a bus and playing with no strikers. It also only proves there is a strong top 5 in England and nothing more as we see nothing from the Europa clubs. 

I was listening to a late night football show on Spanish radio while in bed last night and in that show they had 4 chief editors of Spain’s leading sport papers (MARCA, MUNDO DEPORTIVO, AS and SPORT) on the punditry panel...  Plus they put the audio for the whole of both post match prsss conferences from Antonio Conte and Ernesto Valverde respectively... But they also added audio from comments I usually love to listen to even more which was from some of the players willing to talk to the press as they leave the dressing room to their respective club buses. That final bit always sheds a lot of light on a lot of opinions us fans tend to have on how matches went and what the reasons for coach setups were because journalists are good at asking questions in a certain manner where you end up juicing good trinkets of info you usually don’t get with direct questions in a calculated prsss interview.

The best bits came from two Chelsea players which were César Azpilucieta and Pedro...

The question about why Conte decided to play without a traditional 9 was the basic question to both players.  Pedro said that the plan Conte had for last night’s game was one that had really started to be put into shape over two weeks ago on the training ground and also in conversations Conte was having with individual players as the days drew on.  Azpilicueta said they knew they would be playing without a 9 two weeks ago and they also knew the reasons behind it which had been thought out methodically by Conte since the draw was made.  Conte told Azpilicueta in one conversation that he wasn’t only basing his decisions on how Barcelona have been set out this season which was very important, but that also Conte knew Valverde’s game from having watched his Athletic Bilbao sides live!  Now, that second part obviously must’ve really convinced the players that it was a good idea because it showed there were many reasons as to his choices (one of the reasons players love Conte is because he’s communicative with them and he shows his reasons for decisions). This got the pundits talking and the concurred that the extra speed of Hazard between the two defenders was much better than having hold-up play in the traditional sense because Valverde wasn’t setting up his sides in the traditional Barcelona manner.  That for me was special information and the reason I love listening to what players say.

Pedro added that Barcelona didn’t play like when he was at the club although the possession side of things he knew would always exist because of the fact every Barcelona player is always chosen for their technical ability at knowing how to hold onto the ball. He said that you could see the plan Valverde had setup for them and that it had nothing to do with the videos they’d been seeing of various Barça games this season.  Valverde purposefully put Messi deeper into midfield which said it caused Conte to shout at him (Pedro) from the touchline early on and attach himself to Messi when he could because something had changed in the way they were playing...

Don’t you just love that type of info?  Not only do these coaches plan methodically beforehand for these games, but they’re like hawks in spotting any tactical tricks and changes made by the other coach within a game.  The references to football sometimes being a bit like chess was evident from those quotes in my view.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, SirBalon said:

But the consensus in Spain is that Messi is playing like an animal this season on the whole! 

The editor of MARCA only two weeks ago wrote on his weekly column that he was in the form of his life and that Valverde had made Messi offer things he hadn’t done until now.

Anyway... I’m seeing myself as a right old plonker getting into a debate about this because it’s a non debate to be had.

See it as you will. 

Trust me, if we were talking about 2015 Messi I would tell you it's not even close, but I just don't see what you see in today's Messi. Still far above almost all in my eyea though.

Agree to disagree.

[Carnivore Chris]

10 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Youre not up this early for a bit of  by any chance? 

Haha I realised it after I wrote it, but I had to dart to work

 

The Premier league is probably the superior league right now though for the record. I've watched both all season and La Liga, while still brilliant and very difficult to get results in, has dropped in quality slightly this season while I believe the Premier league has risen a level. It's hard to say really, but these are the only 2 leagues I'd say were worthy of the title and they are the top level of the domestic game. Serie A is slowly getting there I believe itself.

Girona, Espanyol, Alves and Getafe have all gotten results(or near results) this season by playing in a similar way. Very tactical football and it's one of the plus signs(albeit not the most exciting of styles to watch) in la liga right now and a big reason why Real Madrid are struggling big time. The smaller teams have become very tough to beat generally speaking and they are equipped with some very intelligent managers.

Either way, my comment wasn't really meant as disrespect towards Chelsea as they got it spot on last night in what they were trying to achieve and should probably have nicked the win. It's something they seem to do consistently against top sides who like to keep possession and Chelsea, along with Atletico, are the best in the world at this. They are also scarily good at containing the world's best individuals. I remember when C.Ronaldo played in England and he never had a sniff against Chelsea in a good 15 games or so, apart from that one header in the final(which was a very important header with all due respects to him) so it shows that it's not fluke, they know what they are doing and it's far more difficult to achieve than they sometimes make it look.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, SirBalon said:

INot only do these coaches plan methodically beforehand for these games, but they’re like hawks in spotting any tactical tricks and changes made by the other coach within a game.  The references to football sometimes being a bit like chess was evident from those quotes in my view.

This is why managers are highly important and how it's not as simple as just banging a bunch of great players on the pitch and winning.

It was a good tactical game, although it's a fixture I believe was drawn too early in the competition, it would have made for a far better semi final.

By the way, the lack of praise for Busquets is incredible in my eyes. He was Barcelona's best player last night. Class act.

 

 

 

 

[SirBalon]

24 minutes ago, Blue said:

Trust me, if we were talking about 2015 Messi I would tell you it's not even close, but I just don't see what you see in today's Messi. Still far above almost all in my eyea though.

Agree to disagree.

Tell the chief editor of MARCA (Alfredo Relaño)... Maybe you can nick his job and they’ll sack him. Think the guy is on very good money and lives near the Real Madrid players. Imagine that! 

[SirBalon]

25 minutes ago, The Rebel CRS said:

Haha I realised it after I wrote it, but I had to dart to work

 

The Premier league is probably the superior league right now though for the record. I've watched both all season and La Liga, while still brilliant and very difficult to get results in, has dropped in quality slightly this season while I believe the Premier league has risen a level. It's hard to say really, but these are the only 2 leagues I'd say were worthy of the title and they are the top level of the domestic game. Serie A is slowly getting there I believe itself.

Either way, my comment wasn't really meant as disrespect towards Chelsea as they got it spot on last night in what they were trying to achieve and should probably have nicked the win. It's something they seem to do consistently against top sides who like to keep possession and Chelsea, along with Atletico, are the best in the world at this. They are also scarily good at containing the world's best individuals. I remember when C.Ronaldo played in England and he never had a sniff against Chelsea in a good 11 games or so, apart from that one header in the final(which was a very important header with all due respects to him) so it shows that it's not fluke, they know what they are doing and it's far more difficult to achieve than they sometimes make it look.

Girona, Espanyol, Alves and Getafe have all gotten results(or near results) this season by playing in a similar way. Very tactical football and it's one of the plus signs(albeit not the most exciting of styles to watch) in la liga right now and a big reason why Real Madrid are struggling big time. The smaller teams have become very tough to beat generally speaking and they are equipped with some very intelligent managers.

 

 

This is why managers are highly important and how it's not as simple as just banging a bunch of great players on the pitch and winning.

It was a good tactical game, although it's a fixture I believe was drawn too early in the competition, it would have made for a far better semi final.

By the way, the lack of praise for Busquets is incredible in my eyes. He was Barcelona's best player last night. Class act.

 

 

 

 

In Spain most pundits have given the accolade of he best player to Iniesta who they say was tremendous... Messi they say was the deciding factor while for Chelsea they’ve been going on about Azpilicueta and in part to Willian although with Willian they say that his performance was down to Conte’s master tactics which were designed for him and Hazard to exploit with the Brazilian doing a better job. 

[Cicero]

Master tactics? Sorry, I disagree. 

We absorbed the pressure well, but we were mediocre in the final third. Ridiculous a game of this magnitutde to not play a striker.  Putting Hazard on the left, Giroud up top, and Willian in a little deeper centrally, would of been the better route. 

@The Rebel CRS

Ronaldo only scored because Essien was at RB 

 

[SirBalon]

5 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Master tactics? Sorry, I disagree. 

We absorbed the pressure well, but we were mediocre in the final third. Ridiculous a game of this magnitutde to not play a striker.  Putting Hazard on the left, Giroud up top, and Willian in a little deeper centrally, would of been the better route. 

@The Rebel CRS

Ronaldo only scored because Essien was at RB 

 

You would’ve been lighter in midfield. The only thing that’s been smashed around like there’s no tomorrow was praise for both coaches and how that game was a total display of tactical masters at work.

There is no way in hell we know more than they do mate!

[Cicero]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

You would’ve been lighter in midfield. The only thing that’s been smashed around like there’s no tomorrow was praise for both coaches and how that game was a total display of tactical masters at work.

There is no way in hell we know more than they do mate!

I've watched the game. Either one of Pedro or Willian dropped in with the midfield, always interchanging. 

Willian obviously was more successful in leading the transition. He is a number 10 by nature, so to put him there whilst having an Outlet and Hazard in his preferred LW, it would of been the better route. 

The amount of counter attacks wasted last night is still doing my head in. 

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, Cicero said:

I've watched the game. Either one of Pedro or Willian dropped in with the midfield, always interchanging. 

Willian obviously was more successful in leading the transition. He is a number 10 by nature, so to put him there whilst having an Outlet and Hazard in his preferred LW, it would of been the better route. 

The amount of counter attacks wasted last night is still doing my head in. 

I know Willian could have had a hat-trick but I have no idea how he didn't see Kante in acres of space when (I think) there were only 2 Barca defenders coming back too. all it needed was a switch of the play/cross in to the box and Kante could have had an attempt at goal or even a goal in itself as it is. 

[Asura]

Took me 16 hours to finish reading the complete thread, thanks to Balon's bible sized posts. 

@SirBalon I dont get how you are saying barcelona dominated the match? Like i said I read all your posts above but I will have to side with cicero and spike here. Barcelona had possession, the most of it, but they havent done anything in the final third. Chelsea closed them very well and didnt let Messi and Suarez operate. Say what anyone may, but Messi was surely kept quiet, one of the very rare games I watched this happen. Is this a fantastic result for Barcelona? Surely, yes. Did they actually dominate enough? Absolutely No for me. No one would be talking anything in those lines had Willian's two shots were a couple of centimetres towards the goal. 

Christensen made a horrible pass but I would put some blame on Fabregas too for not moving enough and trying to get that ball. He was just ball watching there and the other defender (cant remember who) who over committed himself by sliding to win the ball against Iniesta instead of waiting and then closing Iniesta after he received the ball. Barcelona clearly lucky to get away with the result yesterday as Chelsea has done a lot more with the little time they had the ball. Everytime they had the ball they looked more dangerous than Barcelona. 

[Cicero]

2 minutes ago, Asura said:

Took me 16 hours to finish reading the complete thread, thanks to Balon's bible sized posts. 

@SirBalon I dont get how you are saying barcelona dominated the match? Like i said I read all your posts above but I will have to side with cicero and spike here. Barcelona had possession, the most of it, but they havent done anything in the final third. Chelsea closed them very well and didnt let Messi and Suarez operate. Say what anyone may, but Messi was surely kept quiet, one of the very rare games I watched this happen. Is this a fantastic result for Barcelona? Surely, yes. Did they actually dominate enough? Absolutely No for me. No one would be talking anything in those lines had Willian's two shots were a couple of centimetres towards the goal. 

Christensen made a horrible pass but I would put some blame on Fabregas too for not moving enough and trying to get that ball. He was just ball watching there and the other defender (cant remember who) who over committed himself by sliding to win the ball against Iniesta instead of waiting and then closing Iniesta after he received the ball. Barcelona clearly lucky to get away with the result yesterday as Chelsea has done a lot more with the little time they had the ball. Everytime they had the ball they looked more dangerous than Barcelona. 

Barca dominated us back in 2012. 

What we saw last night wasn't the case in the slightest. 

And agreed, Christensen cocked up the initial pass, but the awareness from Cesc and timing of the challenge from Dave were just as bad. 

[Carnivore Chris]

52 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

In Spain most pundits have given the accolade of he best player to Iniesta who they say was tremendous... Messi they say was the deciding factor while for Chelsea they’ve been going on about Azpilicueta and in part to Willian although with Willian they say that his performance was down to Conte’s master tactics which were designed for him and Hazard to exploit with the Brazilian doing a better job. 

What's strange is that I saw "Willian" wrote in the window of a shop when on my way home from work yesterday and I kid you not. I thought as soon as I saw it that he was going to score last night as I have a very superstitious mind.

Iniesta stepped up and grew into the game. He did very well especially to anticipate the mistake before passing it to Messi, who he always had full faith in but Busquets was Barcelona's man of the match if you ask me. He bossed it over 90 minutes and I have in fact just come over this on youtube which analysed his performance perfectly for me.

It's refreshing to listen to Rio, Gerrard and Lampard when discussing players such as Messi, Iniesta and Busquets as these are men who have not only seen the players throughout their careers, but also played against them.

"Busquets could go out there with a pair of velvet slippers on and still perform" - Rio Ferdinand

 

 

47 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Master tactics? Sorry, I disagree. 

We absorbed the pressure well, but we were mediocre in the final third. Ridiculous a game of this magnitutde to not play a striker.  Putting Hazard on the left, Giroud up top, and Willian in a little deeper centrally, would of been the better route. 

@The Rebel CRS

Ronaldo only scored because Essien was at RB 

 

The problem with games like this is that teams go out there and play too cautiously. It must be a mental thing for these Barcelona players as a lot of them have played the fixture before and they definitely don't enjoy it. I can't think of a worse team to face to be honest.

I thought more could have been done for Willian's goal to be honest. The defenders just left him in space outside the box and should have been on him like a rash considering he'd just hit the post twice from a similar position.

 

@Blue The best Messi to watch was between about 2007-2012, without a doubt. Whenever he picked up the ball, you were on the edge of your seat and I don't think I've ever seen or will ever see a player who creates so much intensity and anticipation whenever they get on the ball. I remember some of those mazy dribble runs and they were frequent, it was incredible to watch the lad in his younger days. However, he has evolved now and become a more intelligent overall footballer who utilises his brain a lot more. Lineker said it perfectly recently where he said "it's as if he stands above the field and watches it down, like we are up here(in the commentary box)". He can see everything on the pitch and he ups the tempo whenever in possession of the ball. He's had to change and evolve with age.

With all due respects, he still beats players with ease and hasn't completely lost that side to his game, it's just not the prominent aspect it once was, again this is because of age and having to evolve in order to continue being one of the best. It's actually very impressive that he's still doing so well at this age.

One thing I will say though is that despite being effective(especially with his passing) in recent games, he's been a bit off, although over the course of the season he's been all over the pitch.