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What is Wrong With Argentina?

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We don't have a thread for this yet. We get a ton of people who are saying "Argentina are in a state" but don't actually include their reasons as to why they believe so to be, so I thought this could be a good topic and a good debate to have.

Discuss.

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There are a few common denominators, but I think it has to do with the coaching staff. It doesn't seem to be very effective. I'm going to spare Sampaoli and Bauza, even though I don't think the latter is a great coach, I can see it wasn't all down to him.

There just seems to be a lack of work everywhere around. Even with Messi I'd argue, who while the best player for Argentina by a mile doesn't look as good as he does in Spain and I don't think its because of the players around him. I'm not saying he's a bottler by any means, just that he's missing something compared to Barcelona.

I'm pointing fingers at everyone else such as Aguero or Higuain. Aguero seems poorly coached, Higuain needs a good psicologist, who aren't easy to come about. Otamendi is a joke for the national team too.

Argentina have begun to struggle since the 2014 World Cup, where they looked gash up until Demichelis began to start in matches where they looked solid afterwars. So this has been going on for 4 managers now, its really down to AFA's corrupt wishes as well as some poor coaching overall. That's what I'm seeing.

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5 minutes ago, Teso dos Bichos said:

No Barcelona system to benefit messi and it doesn't help that their coach is that tatted up clown. ... Unless I'm forgetting someone, Teso was the only one who thought he was the wrong man for the job.

Who was the right man for the job then? I'm genuinely curious

I don't see what Sampaoli is doing wrong at the moment. With what he has, he's trying his best.

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3 minutes ago, Teso dos Bichos said:

Bianchi, Alfio Basile, or Almeyda.

 

 

Bianchi was terrible at his last stint at Boca, the board actually had the guts to sack a club legend because he was genuinely that bad. He's also 68 years old and nearing retirement. With him, Argentina would not have qualified.

Alfio Basile is 74 years old FFS.

Almeyda is the manager at Chivas, in which most South Americans view as a minnow league. He could be a good choice, but not when Argentina needed to qualify.

 

Sampaoli was the best available option. The only one I can think of that could have been viable for the job is Marcelo Gallardo, who I don't really rate too much if I'm honest.

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It's a former colony of Uruguay. Inferiority complex, ya know?

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@Berserker Would you take Gareca?

(Please don't, but he is being tipped to join you guys after the World Cup)

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10 minutes ago, Ruigol said:

@Berserker Would you take Gareca?

(Please don't, but he is being tipped to join you guys after the World Cup)

No, i'd rather have Simeone or Gallardo. 1st choice would be Guardiola.

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1 minute ago, Berserker said:

No, i'd rather have Simeone or Gallardo. 1st choice would be Guardiola.

Fair enough, and for our sake I hope the AFA doesn't want him either. I wouldn't be surprised if he takes over though, I doubt he'll stick around with us after the World Cup.

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There´s not enough time to Sampaoli implement his ideas. His system might be too complex for a national team, considering the short time to work. 

I think he should just do what Sabella did in 2014. Do the simple, be more conservative and fix the defence . Messi will be Messi, he´s a guarantee to produce at least one goal per match.

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Just let the lads play. No tricks. No special tactics. Put on the best players that complement each other and let them play football.

Aguero should start the friendlies. 

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my amateur analysis ....

 

- too much reliance on god-messi.

- sampaoli doesn't know what to do.   either his selection of personnel/players or he doesn't know how to motivate them

- too much individualistic attitude within the squad.

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For some reason we ended up talking about this in the Barça thread and I answered with this which I've copied and pasted seeing as it's what I think and don't want to do another one. xD

It's more about the comparisons between the 86 team and the present team but it contains what I feel part of the problems are.

 

 

I've always admitted that I'm a massive Menottista and very anti Bilardo, but without a doubt you have to give credit to Carlos Bilardo's managerial record on all levels even if I rather disliked his brand of football.  He was very tactical as was another Argentine in Helenio Herrera (Herrera more so) although in the case of HH he ended up naturalising himself French so we can discount him from any equation in cases such as these where Argentinian football is in question.

To cut what I could make into one of my trademark long posts, yes indeed Argentina were coached much better to be a winning formula in 1986 under Carlos Bilardo, but even Bilardo wouldn't have done much with this team.

You can have all the talent you want sitting up front waiting for the right ball to come so as to score, but if those behind you aren't good enough to win it back against top sides (because you have to beat the top sides somewhere along the line to win things) and be able to maintain it with aplomb and containing a certain amount of improvisation without being too blatant in what you want to do, then those players up front are worthless!

Theyre even more worthless because due to the fact what's behind them ranges from below average to ok and then a couple that are good, then that creates anxiety in the front men and when they are given a good opportunity out of the blue, they tend to fluff it more than they ever would at club level.

My gripe in anything concerning Argentina is where fools say that the Class of 86 were mediocre and that Maradona won it on his own.  I lived that era live and watched as many games as I could, even friendliness...  That team was good, not brilliant, but they were good and with the added factor of Diego Maradona, that became a winning formula due to Bilardo understanding the difficiencies in the team and making them play in such a way that those problems became almost null and void.

Tactics aren't just about understanding and studying your opponent as many seem to think it is.  Yes its's vital, but a great coach also knows his team, his players and how to make that unit function in such a manner that any issues are brushed over with some makeup so that it all can be as seamless as possible.

I rate Sampaoli highly, a lot more highly than they do in his home nation where the general consensus is that he's a very dislikable character.  Sampaoli has had that team playing a lot better than what they should be playing.  He's had various instances of good football, compact football with the lines playing close to each other so as to not leave spaces which would be where you would make obvious how crap that midfield is and how mediocre the defence also is.  He should be commended for this because that's why they managed to qualify.

Messi can only do so much.

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It's a few months ago but there's a lot of truths spoken in this thread. 

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Spanish station COPE published a leaked Simeone audio in which he was discussing with Burgos what´s going on with Argentina. Some of the most interesting parts: 

- Simeone started criticizing the anarchy at AFA; 

- Criticizes Caballero, mention he had already made mistakes in the friendly against Spain 

- "Messi is great, but he is also great because he´s surrounded by very good players. If you had to choose between Messi and Ronaldo to lead an average team, who would you pick?"

 

https://www.cope.es/audios/cope-secciones/mensaje-voz-simeone-mono-burgos-criticando-argentina-vos-teneis-que-elegir-entre-messi-cristiano-quien-elegirias_514362

-

 

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On 3/31/2018 at 04:50, SirBalon said:

For some reason we ended up talking about this in the Barça thread and I answered with this which I've copied and pasted seeing as it's what I think and don't want to do another one. xD

It's more about the comparisons between the 86 team and the present team but it contains what I feel part of the problems are.

 

 

I've always admitted that I'm a massive Menottista and very anti Bilardo, but without a doubt you have to give credit to Carlos Bilardo's managerial record on all levels even if I rather disliked his brand of football.  He was very tactical as was another Argentine in Helenio Herrera (Herrera more so) although in the case of HH he ended up naturalising himself French so we can discount him from any equation in cases such as these where Argentinian football is in question.

To cut what I could make into one of my trademark long posts, yes indeed Argentina were coached much better to be a winning formula in 1986 under Carlos Bilardo, but even Bilardo wouldn't have done much with this team.

You can have all the talent you want sitting up front waiting for the right ball to come so as to score, but if those behind you aren't good enough to win it back against top sides (because you have to beat the top sides somewhere along the line to win things) and be able to maintain it with aplomb and containing a certain amount of improvisation without being too blatant in what you want to do, then those players up front are worthless!

Theyre even more worthless because due to the fact what's behind them ranges from below average to ok and then a couple that are good, then that creates anxiety in the front men and when they are given a good opportunity out of the blue, they tend to fluff it more than they ever would at club level.

My gripe in anything concerning Argentina is where fools say that the Class of 86 were mediocre and that Maradona won it on his own.  I lived that era live and watched as many games as I could, even friendliness...  That team was good, not brilliant, but they were good and with the added factor of Diego Maradona, that became a winning formula due to Bilardo understanding the difficiencies in the team and making them play in such a way that those problems became almost null and void.

Tactics aren't just about understanding and studying your opponent as many seem to think it is.  Yes its's vital, but a great coach also knows his team, his players and how to make that unit function in such a manner that any issues are brushed over with some makeup so that it all can be as seamless as possible.

I rate Sampaoli highly, a lot more highly than they do in his home nation where the general consensus is that he's a very dislikable character.  Sampaoli has had that team playing a lot better than what they should be playing.  He's had various instances of good football, compact football with the lines playing close to each other so as to not leave spaces which would be where you would make obvious how crap that midfield is and how mediocre the defence also is.  He should be commended for this because that's why they managed to qualify.

Messi can only do so much.

I mentioned this in another thread but Argentina need a Bilardista right now. There is no 'idea' for the team, their is no solid discipline to get behind. Argentina doesn't have the midfield to control games, but they have abrasive players that can 'prevent the team from losing'. Messi needs to have freedom and for him to have that freedom other players need to have none, he can only be the spark if their is a consistent rigidity around him. Messi doesn't defend, he can go missing sometimes, and can leave wholes in the structure of a team, but if nine well-drilled players worked around that weakness, I think then Messi could go about his normal thing. I think a 4-4-2 with a target-man would be the best formation, much like Cholo at Atleti. If only they had a tenacious powerfoward like Costa or Manduzkic it would give them a secondary option (play it long) and the physicality would open up space for Messi. NT isn't like club football, a manager has to work with what he has and in the past decade using excessive forwards with Messi has NEVER worked.

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It'll be interesting to see what team the players pick for their final group game.

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I’m hoping two members I passed a couple of podcasts the other say offer something here. I’ll do my bit after the Nigeria game. I didn’t pass @Berserker the podcasts because I want his opinion based on the fact he is native and lives in Argentina. 

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I figured this was a rather easy answer. 

No Icardi because of Messi, and if you had a front like this, you'd be a lot better off:

 

Aguero -----Icardi

---------Messi----------

Also, Dybala should be starting, and Caballero should not. 

 

Those are 3 easy fixes that would make this team a lot more dangerous. 

 

But let's not forget, they just got pounded by an extremely good team in Croatia.

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Last time Dybala and Messi started a game, they were practically hugging for the amount of times they ran into each other. 

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11 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Last time Dybala and Messi started a game, they were practically hugging for the amount of times they ran into each other. 

How many times have they played together, though? Surely two players of that much talent can figure out how to work together. 

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8 minutes ago, Eco said:

How many times have they played together, though? Surely two players of that much talent can figure out how to work together. 

Just against Uruguay in qualifiers, and it was a mess. 

I too am still adament in that there has to be a way that Dybala and Messi can work together. However, both love to occupy the middle. 

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17 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Just against Uruguay in qualifiers, and it was a mess. 

I too am still adament in that there has to be a way that Dybala and Messi can work together. However, both love to occupy the middle. 

Okay - yeah I watched zero of Argentina's qualifiers so I wasn't sure, it just seems like the easy fix. Messi working behind Aguero and Icardi would be absolutely magical, but we won't ever see that. 

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Messi picks the team and Messi isn't very smart.

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1 hour ago, Eco said:

I figured this was a rather easy answer. 

No Icardi because of Messi, and if you had a front like this, you'd be a lot better off:

 

Aguero -----Icardi

---------Messi----------

Also, Dybala should be starting, and Caballero should not. 

 

Those are 3 easy fixes that would make this team a lot more dangerous. 

 

But let's not forget, they just got pounded by an extremely good team in Croatia.

That would never happen. Messi has blacklisted Icardi, Dybala gets in Messi's way (like Tevez used to), Aguero is a serial underperformer, and Messi has never played well as a #10. The problem with Argentina isn't the forwards, it is the FFA, Lionel Messi's lockerroom control, and the manager having little control of anything.The midfield is shambles, and the defence is even worse, the solution isn't more forwards at all. Argentina has crab mentality, the coach, the FFA, and Messi all vying for control. I've spoken to several Argentinos ans that is just the culture that permeates from the society.

Messi may be the best player of all time but he isn't a shining example of behaviour behind the scenes. In fact, I'd wager Ronaldo is easier to deal with.

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Just now, Spike said:

That would never happen. Messi has blacklisted Icardi, Dybala gets in Messi's way (like Tevez used to), Aguero is a serial underperformer, and Messi has never played well as a #10. The problem with Argentina isn't the forwards, it is the FFA, Lionel Messi's lockerroom control, and the manager having little control of anything.The midfield is shambles, and the defence is even worse, the solution isn't more forwards at all. Argentina has crab mentality, the coach, the FFA, and Messi all vying for control. I've spoken to several Argentinos ans that is just the culture that permeates from the society.

Messi may be the best player of all time but he isn't a shining example of behaviour behind the scenes. In fact, I'd wager Ronaldo is easier to deal with.

I am aware of Icardi being 'blacklisted', but still, this is what is wrong with Argentina, they aren't bringing their best players because Messi controls the team. Argentina have scored 1 goal combined against Iceland and Croatia, so I would suggest that they need more fire power. Dybala and Messi should learn to play together FFS. It's not like there aren't ways to works around the roles. Get them best players on the field, and let them perform. 

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6 minutes ago, Spike said:

That would never happen. Messi has blacklisted Icardi, Dybala gets in Messi's way (like Tevez used to), Aguero is a serial underperformer, and Messi has never played well as a #10. The problem with Argentina isn't the forwards, it is the FFA, Lionel Messi's lockerroom control, and the manager having little control of anything.The midfield is shambles, and the defence is even worse, the solution isn't more forwards at all. Argentina has crab mentality, the coach, the FFA, and Messi all vying for control. I've spoken to several Argentinos ans that is just the culture that permeates from the society.

Messi may be the best player of all time but he isn't a shining example of behaviour behind the scenes. In fact, I'd wager Ronaldo is easier to deal with.

Didn't Sampaoli turn up for a training session only for it to have been moved by Messi as well?

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9 minutes ago, Spike said:

That would never happen. Messi has blacklisted Icardi, Dybala gets in Messi's way (like Tevez used to), Aguero is a serial underperformer, and Messi has never played well as a #10. The problem with Argentina isn't the forwards, it is the FFA, Lionel Messi's lockerroom control, and the manager having little control of anything.The midfield is shambles, and the defence is even worse, the solution isn't more forwards at all. Argentina has crab mentality, the coach, the FFA, and Messi all vying for control. I've spoken to several Argentinos ans that is just the culture that permeates from the society.

Messi may be the best player of all time but he isn't a shining example of behaviour behind the scenes. In fact, I'd wager Ronaldo is easier to deal with.

Right. Any proof? 

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2 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Right. Any proof? 

Icardi himself has mentioned that he isn't in Russia because he isn't in Messi's 'clan'. 

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5 minutes ago, Eco said:

I am aware of Icardi being 'blacklisted', but still, this is what is wrong with Argentina, they aren't bringing their best players because Messi controls the team. Argentina have scored 1 goal combined against Iceland and Croatia, so I would suggest that they need more fire power. Dybala and Messi should learn to play together FFS. It's not like there aren't ways to works around the roles. Get them best players on the field, and let them perform. 

They don't need fire power, they need a midfield and defence. You can't have a cannon and expect it to shoot far if poor quality gunpowder is used. 'let them perform' is exactly Argentina's problem, they have no discipline nor tactics, because they all want to be the boss so they end up having no respect for the manager. That is why instead of rallying together ti get a good result they threw Sampaoli under the buss and in return Sampaoli told his assisstants to withhold all information on Nigeria from the players. Crab mentality. Messi will never let Dybala shine while he is in the team. 

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Just now, Eco said:

Icardi himself has mentioned that he isn't in Russia because he isn't in Messi's 'clan'. 

It isn't just Messi. Mascherano, Romero, Aguero, Perez, Banerga, etc. All don't like Icardi for various reasons. Add the fact that Icardi has done fuck all for the national side when given the chance, I find it convenient he's blaming his exclusion on not being a part of Messi's group vs rather being just not good enough. 

 And with the personality of an insecure teenager, I highly doubt Messi is capable of such things Spike is stating. Again, there is no proof that Messi has control over anything. 

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