Champions League Final 2018 - LIVERPOOL 1-3 REAL MADRID

[SirBalon]

34 minutes ago, Storts said:

Not sure they've really been burned considering Thiago's injury record - a very promising and talented player, but when you can't get that talent onto the pitch consistently it is futile. 

I think he’s been ok in terms of injuries in the last year and a half and has come back into the Spain national side. But he did have serious risks of ending his career with so many knee injuries.

All the same, he was Xavi’s natural successor but didn’t want to wait and add to this that the club didn’t talk to him until the end where his contract was running down, he did right to stick it to them. 

[ASF]

On 5/30/2018 at 00:33, SirBalon said:

André my friend (you know I aprreciate your friendship)... There's a reason why I didn't directly quote you and that is because I read this sort of stuff everyday on social media and I know you're not one of those types at all and it surprised me to read that from you with a swipe at Barcelona. People don't have to like an entity to respect their achievements and to say what Real Madrid have achieved over the past decade is more substantial than what Barça have is total nonsense.  Who cares if you make the same sum quicker than someone else?

Also, what you see as a contradiction actually is nothing of the sort.  I meant what I said and I'll explain that part very briefly which is rare for me ... The Champions League is is the maximum trophy because it has the maximum general exposure throughout the world, throughout every continent.  The name of the tournament (or better said, the name it used to have) tells you it all, it's a cup competition outside the borders of each individual club.  It's an international tournament.

But you're not even going to really believe that a season of football consisting of 38 games (38 in the majority of countries) isn't more important.

But I can add something more substantial to that part with these facts...

Why is a league sold as a package on diverse tv platforms throughout the world in every continent?

Did you know that buying either the Premier League or La Liga costs 3 times as much as buying the rights to the Champions League? (In the Premier League's case, 5 times as much)

What would be the point in fans outside where clubs those clubs reside be something that tv platforms would spend so much money on when they could kill two birds with one stone and buy the Champions League and then just simply buy the extended highlights access to the big leagues.  TV platforms (PPV and subscription modules) are businesses, they're not national services which is where these leagues are shown in the grand majority (if not all) of countries that have this product available.  Why would someone follow a product for almost a whole year with many mundane games if it doesn't brew interest outside what you said only interests the fans at home!

Being the Champions of Europe is massive, but it's value in the context of the campaign is questionable if you have a domestic season like Real Madrid had this year. I wouldn't have said absolutely anything (I swear to you on all that I most love) if Real Madrid had've come second a few points behind Barça because you can't win everything and that would've been a dignified season with an eventual magnificent victory in the Champions League, I swear to you I wouldn't have said any of this... With that I refer to everything else I said in the post you quoted.

International tournaments create more impact and that's a fact, especially in one particular continent...  But do you hold the World Club Cup as the ultimate club tournament of them all?  I know you don't, I know that for a fact and I don't even know you personally.

Anyway... (Because I know how this works with some on the forum, not directed at you) Once again, I want to reiterate that I am in no way whatsoever wanting or trying to belittle Real Madrid's achievement.  It's massive!  But the context is in each individual season and adding a decade's worth of football can't then be drawn down into who done something quicker... Come oooooon man!  Come on!  The consecutive wins are a great feat and only a fool would say otherwise.

If someone makes the same sum quicker, it's because that someone is better.

No, you're right. I don't. That, for me, is the Champions League. Because all the best teams in Europe participate in it, making it the most difficult competition to win.

[Asura]

1 hour ago, ASF said:

If someone makes the same sum quicker, it's because that someone is better.

No, you're right. I don't. That, for me, is the Champions League. Because all the best teams in Europe participate in it, making it the most difficult competition to win.

I see you are comparing Club World Cup with Champions league and I agree with your comments but if you meant to say CL is harder than the league then read below, else ignore.

All the best teams in europe participate in it doesnt mean you face all of them in that tournament. Liverpool didnt face Barcelona, Juventus, etc. Madrid didnt face City, Barcelona, etc and so on for every team.

The problem is with the format of the competition and the length of it. 

[SirBalon]

6 hours ago, ASF said:

If someone makes the same sum quicker, it's because that someone is better.

No, you're right. I don't. That, for me, is the Champions League. Because all the best teams in Europe participate in it, making it the most difficult competition to win.

That's not true mate, because as Asura says below, you don't play all those teams in one campaign of the Champions League.  It would be if it was a league format of all the teams and they played each other twice during a whole season.

It's a cup competition first and foremost.  It's the most prestigious cup competition for clubs in the world.

Look at what Simeone thinks: https://elpais.com/deportes/2017/02/07/actualidad/1486494829_901919.html

https://www.20minutos.es/deportes/noticia/simeone-liga-imposible-real-madrid-barca-3274579/0/

https://okdiario.com/deportes/futbol/2016/02/23/simeone-es-entendible-pensar-que-la-champions-es-el-camino-mas-facil-para-ganar-un-titulo-76718

But fundamentally look at what the guy that you've lauded so much in Zinedine Zidane thinks: https://www.mundodeportivo.com/futbol/el-clasico-barca-real-madrid/20180505/443278624761/zidane-real-madrid-clasico-barcelona-real-madrid.html

5 hours ago, Asura said:

I see you are comparing Club World Cup with Champions league and I agree with your comments but if you meant to say CL is harder than the league then read below, else ignore.

All the best teams in europe participate in it doesnt mean you face all of them in that tournament. Liverpool didnt face Barcelona, Juventus, etc. Madrid didnt face City, Barcelona, etc and so on for every team.

The problem is with the format of the competition and the length of it. 

ASF compared the World Club Cup because I brought it up and I did this for a specific reason.  That reason is because it depends where you are as to how you predominately think.  For example in Latin America winning the World Club Cup is the biggest thing a club can.  It's bigger than their own Champions League which is the Copa Libertadores... Where here in Europe it's relegated to the same sensation as winning a start of a season Supercup.

In my first post when all of this debate cropped up, one of the things (right at the bottom) I asked about Sir Alex Ferguson is ranked as one of the greatest managers of all time. That thought isn't only felt in the UK but also throughout the world of football he has recieved accolades.

Well in 26 years in charge of Manchester United he won 38 trophies!  The important two being 13 League Titles and 2 Chanpions Leagues!

Should Zinedine Zidane now be regarded as the greatest manager of all time?  Now this debate would be interesting.  Watch so many that have been smart with their comments shift around uncomfortably in their seat, twitching to get through this one.

I repeat... I've said the same thing in every post.  It's all about context! 

[ASF]

13 hours ago, Asura said:

I see you are comparing Club World Cup with Champions league and I agree with your comments but if you meant to say CL is harder than the league then read below, else ignore.

All the best teams in europe participate in it doesnt mean you face all of them in that tournament. Liverpool didnt face Barcelona, Juventus, etc. Madrid didnt face City, Barcelona, etc and so on for every team.

The problem is with the format of the competition and the length of it. 

You don't face all the best teams in a CL edition, but the fact remains that they all participate in it, which makes it the most difficult to win. 

[ASF]

1 minute ago, Cannabis said:

Some would argue that the league is harder to win, given you play every week for 8-9 months.

True, but usually the candidates for a league title are stronger than 95% of the teams that participate in that league. 

Which is not the case in the CL. 

[Cicero]

2 minutes ago, ASF said:

True, but usually the candidates for a league title are stronger than 95% of the teams that participate in that league. 

Which is not the case in the CL. 

Yet there is also the case that you can win the Champions league without having to face a Barca, Real, or Bayern. 

You can't win the league without facing a top club 

[Machado]

All over Europe, quite often mid/bottom table clubs are winning their country's cups despite not having the smallest chance of winning the league.

Cups are easier to win because sides like Roma can beat Barcelona with the right momentum, yet in 30 games Barcelona would win 25 simply because they are way better.

If the Champions League was an actual league, the best side would win it every year as winning a league requires a great deal of being consistently the best. When it comes to competitions in a cup format however, you only need to be the best on a particular day. Cup comeptitions are more fun and "hype" because of this.

[Asura]

37 minutes ago, ASF said:

True, but usually the candidates for a league title are stronger than 95% of the teams that participate in that league. 

Which is not the case in the CL. 

lets break this down then... there are about 3 (Real, Barca, Atletico) title contenders in spanish  league (since our argument is about spanish clubs here) with 20 teams..  and there are about 6 title contenders (Barca, Real, Juve, City, Bayern, Atletico) in CL with 32 teams .. Im not counting the likes of United, Spurs, Liverpool, Dortmund, Chelsea, etc in CL because they are not really contenders of the CL similar to how valencia, sevilla, Villarreal are not league contenders as they both fall in the similar category.

So basically there are only three more additional teams which are contending for the CL title versus the spanish league title strictly speaking. Its not like there is a whole lot of difference in quality and like I said in my previous post you dont even really face all the other 5 contenders in CL ... you probably will face about 2-4 maximum which makes the difference between league and CL as 1-2 title contending teams. So this whole CL has the best teams so its a better tournament is a pure myth.

Also with relatively easier draws and 1-2 good games on their day its easier for teams to win the CL in a shorter period of time. But with league, you will have to face every single team in the competition no matter what and will have to atleast beat the majority of the big teams within the league over a period of 8-9 months to win the title. 

Maybe you can call CL as a prestigious trophy because of all the marketing and also for the fact that its a continental competition but its definitely not the toughest tournament to win.

[Asura]

42 minutes ago, ASF said:

You don't face all the best teams in a CL edition, but the fact remains that they all participate in it, which makes it the most difficult to win. 

what difference does it make if they all just participate but while you dont have to face them to win the trophy?  

[SirBalon]

Imagine participating in La Liga if you were Valencia and you didn't have to play Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atlético Madrid, Atheltic Bilbao or Sevilla. Imagine you get a 3 point bye for not meeting and playing those sides.

[Carnivore Chris]

One thing both teams could boast is how well they have represented Spanish football in the competition over the last decade, winning 7 of the last 10 between them.

 

Barcelona could definitely have won 1 or 2 more than they have during this period though(although is 4 in 12 years really an underachievement when most clubs don't even win 4 in their history, not even huge ones like Man United? Barcelona themselves only had 1 before this) and next season, you would hope to see a much better showing than against Roma this year.

[ASF]

1 hour ago, Cicero said:

Yet there is also the case that you can win the Champions league without having to face a Barca, Real, or Bayern. 

You can't win the league without facing a top club 

This hasn't happened in over 10 years. And it will most likely not happen in the near future.

 

32 minutes ago, Asura said:

lets break this down then... there are about 3 (Real, Barca, Atletico) title contenders in spanish  league (since our argument is about spanish clubs here) with 20 teams..  and there are about 6 title contenders (Barca, Real, Juve, City, Bayern, Atletico) in CL with 32 teams .. Im not counting the likes of United, Spurs, Liverpool, Dortmund, Chelsea, etc in CL because they are not really contenders of the CL similar to how valencia, sevilla, Villarreal are not league contenders as they both fall in the similar category.

So basically there are only three more additional teams which are contending for the CL title versus the spanish league title strictly speaking. Its not like there is a whole lot of difference in quality and like I said in my previous post you dont even really face all the other 5 contenders in CL ... you probably will face about 2-4 maximum which makes the difference between league and CL as 1-2 title contending teams. So this whole CL has the best teams so its a better tournament is a pure myth.

Also with relatively easier draws and 1-2 good games on their day its easier for teams to win the CL in a shorter period of time. But with league, you will have to face every single team in the competition no matter what and will have to atleast beat the majority of the big teams within the league over a period of 8-9 months to win the title. 

Maybe you can call CL as a prestigious trophy because of all the marketing and also for the fact that its a continental competition but its definitely not the toughest tournament to win.

There are two contenders in La Liga. I like Atlético, but unless both Spanish giants have a season off, it's almost impossible for another team to win La Liga.

The same happens in most leagues. England are an exception. In England, you have 4-6 teams with budgets that can make them compete for the league. But in the rest of the major leagues, this doesn't happen. You have, realistically, 2-3 clubs battling for the title. And in some cases, I'm being optimistic. Just look at the Bundesliga, where it seems unlikely that Bayern will lose the title, in the next couple of years. 

In the CL, you have about 8-10 clubs with budgets that can allow them to compete for the title. Real, Barça, Bayern, Juventus, PSG, Man City, Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool. Then you have clubs with tradition, like Porto, Benfica, Roma, Dortmund, Arsenal, Napoli, Atlético. I've named 16 teams, that's half of the competition of the CL, that should/can compete for the trophy. 

The problem is that people talk about the CL like if it was a domestic Cup. 'With a bit of luck, and 1-2 good games, you can win the CL'. Not, it's not as easy like that. There's a reason why there has only been one new team, winning the competition, in the past 20 years (Chelsea). On the other hand, you see leagues being won by the same team over and over again. 

If this doesn't demonstrate the difficulty that it is to win the CL and become European Champion, then I don't know what can make you see it.

29 minutes ago, Asura said:

what difference does it make if they all just participate but while you dont have to face them to win the trophy?  

It makes it a tougher competition. 

[Cicero]

2 minutes ago, ASF said:

This hasn't happened in over 10 years. And it will most likely not happen in the near future.

 

 

Real have just won the Champions League the past three times without having to face their biggest rival. To which that Rival has literally dominated them in the league. 

 

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, ASF said:

In the CL, you have about 8-10 clubs with budgets that can allow them to compete for the title. Real, Barça, Bayern, Juventus, PSG, Man City, Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool. Then you have clubs with tradition, like Porto, Benfica, Roma, Dortmund, Arsenal, Napoli, Atlético. I've named 16 teams, that's half of the competition of the CL, that should/can compete for the trophy. 

I think we can delete that one mate! 

Without a doubt I don't want to get into a type of debate where we suddenly start comparing the Champions League/European Cup to a national cup competition.  But I think Machado put it well also... There is luck involved in any cup competition including Europe's premier tournament, more so these days amongst the top teams. Newhart occurs is that there are at most two maybe three that if they get to the semis, then more times than not the decision is done which actually makes you think it's exactly the same as the scenario you've painted for most of Europe's leagues barring the Premier League.

All the same, for a club of Real Madrid's size, 2 league titles is abismal.  Even more so if we feel that there are only two teams in it and that relegates issues to 50%. 

[ASF]

1 minute ago, Cannabis said:

Let's not forget the embarrassingly easy draws Madrid usually get too. This year they have had a test, but usually they get their hand held from the beginning.

15/16 - Roma, Man City and Atlético

16/17 - Bayern, Atlético and Juventus

17/18 - PSG, Juventus, Bayern and Liverpool

And if you go even further into the past, you will see that the team that eventually wins the competition, very rarely have easy draws.

[SirBalon]

3 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

Let's not forget the embarrassingly easy draws Madrid usually get too. This year they have had a test, but usually they get their hand held from the beginning.

They didn't get easy draws this campaign though... Came second in their group, PSG, Juventus, Bayern and then Liverpool in the final where Ramos took out practically their only weapon and the one that looked like he was about to tear them a new arsehole.  Real suffered majorly to get to this season's final and nothing can be said aside from Ramos in the final as to their victory.

All the same, that doesn't take away from everything else being debated here.  17 points behind eventual champions in their league is more than just a major joke.

[Carnivore Chris]

12 minutes ago, ASF said:

 

 

There are two contenders in La Liga.

 

Those 2 teams have won 7 of the last 10 Champions leagues in fairness and the Europa league winners are often from Spain as well.

 

I like Atlético, but unless both Spanish giants have a season off, it's almost impossible for another team to win La Liga.

 

 

That's because they have to be more consistent than the 2 teams in question over 38 games. Atletico have only finished above Barcelona once during this period in La Liga, yet have knocked the club out of the Champs league both times the 2 sides have met, before reaching the final twice, which they would have likely won had they not faced Real, another team from their league.

 

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, ASF said:

And if you go even further into the past, you will see that the team that eventually wins the competition, very rarely have easy draws.

Apart from last season with Real Madrid which was the butt of all jokes in Spain.

Anyway... Zidane has twice said these past two weeks that La Liga is much more difficult to win and that the victory in La Liga last season is the highlight of his time as their head coach.  And I understand that considering how 90% of the time Barça own them when they meet.

[Marc]

This is the biggest meltdown I've ever seen on a football forum.

You're talking like they've fluked a european cup like when Portsmouth one the FA Cup and had an easy draw on the way.. They've beaten the german, french and italian champions this year, and the uncrowned English champions Liverpool plus they've won it three times in a row. History makers. 3 in 3 , 4 in 5.

Is this the most dominant period of european cup wins by a team since Real Madrid won the first 5? I think it probably is. Ajax and Bayern won 3 in 3 but not 4 in 5.

The most dominant team this the first winners (again Real Madrid) back in the 50s when the compeition began.

[Cicero]

1 minute ago, Marc said:

This is the biggest meltdown I've ever seen on a football forum.

You're talking like they've fluked a european cup like when Portsmouth one the FA Cup and had an easy draw on the way.. They've beaten the german, french and italian champions this year, and the uncrowned English champions Liverpool plus they've won it three times in a row. History makers. 3 in 3 , 4 in 5.

Is this the most dominant period of european cup wins by a team since Real Madrid won the first 5? I think it probably is. Ajax and Bayern won 3 in 3 but not 4 in 5.

The most dominant team this the first winners (again Real Madrid) back in the 50s when the compeition began.

Why do you insist on doing this? Literally no one here is discrediting this accomplishment or calling it a 'fluke' . 

This all in response of those stating the league is lesser value or easier to win vs the Champions League. 

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Why do you insist on doing this? Literally no one here is discrediting this accomplishment or calling it a 'fluke' . 

This all in response of those stating the league is lesser value or easier to win vs the Champions League. 

It becomes the latest post and for those that don't read through the whole debate word for word it becomes what's been said.  I literally ignore that sort of post as nonsense and garbage.

[Cicero]

Meltdown. Fluke. Rattled. 

Kinell. Nothing shouts  '"too long didn't read' by ignoring the premise of the initital fucking argument. 

[Marc]

5 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Why do you insist on doing this? Literally no one here is discrediting this accomplishment or calling it a 'fluke' . 

This all in response of those stating the league is lesser value or easier to win vs the Champions League. 

Sir Balon called the win meaningless, someone said about Real getting easy draws, you made some completely random out of context point about winning the CL without playing top teams then ASF put you back in your place. You then amazingly came out and said they haven't played Barca 

 

@SirBalonwould you agree this is the most dominant european cup team since the first RM team in the 50s? 4 in 5, 3 in 3 remember.

The meltdown is still on for 1k posts.

[Cicero]

Just now, Marc said:

Sir Balon called the win meaningless, someone said about Real getting easy draws, you made some completely random out of context point about winning the CL without playing top teams then ASF put you back in your place. You then amazingly came out and said they haven't played Barca 

 

@SirBalonwould you agree this is the most dominant european cup team since the first RM team in the 50s? 4 in 5, 3 in 3 remember.

The meltdown is still on for 1k posts.

Read my post you melt. I said you can win the Champions League without having to face a Real, Barca, or Bayern. 3 of the best clubs in Europe. To which Real have conveniently avoided their main domestic Rival the past 3 times they won the competition.  Whereas in the League, Barca beat them quite convincingly time and time again. 

How can you be the best in Europe when you aren't even the best in your country?