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Barton - Kante Is Overrated


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16 minutes ago, Spike said:

Forwards and the midfield have reached a new plateau. They have evolved with the times, the defence has not. Look at the world of fullbacks? Who do you watch and think 'this guy has it all'? What about CBs? It screams about the quality of the CBs across the world when people rate Hummels and Ramos as the best defenders.

I agree that the CB's are of a lower standard than usual and have been saying for a long time that to me the only defenders who can be deemed as world class are Godin and Bonucci. Ramos gets all the attention for scoring the goals from corners but Godin also does that and defensively he's much superior to Ramos. 

 

I disagree on the fullbacks though. Alaba is a cracking player who's had success in other positions. Alex Sandro may not be a historic player but he's also very good as is Marcelo.

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I've always rated Sergio Ramos, I'd take him over Pique in a heartbeat every time. I do think that also has to do with the fact that the guy is aces on scoring in the most opportune moments for set pieces.

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15 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

It's not about the quality of individual players that play in defensive positions.  It's about football mate, it's about football having changed tactically and more emphasis put on forward thinking midfielders.

In times gone past teams would wait (on the whole and ESPECIALLY in European competition) for the opportunistic moment.  Football was more conservative and even though it looked more frenetic due to longer passes being made, this was mainly due to a lack of the technique we see these days in midfielders and how far tactically aware coaches have evolved.  No top team now plays one single rigid formation within a whole match.  Now you will see the teams with top coaches play two or even three formations depending on whether or not they've got the ball or what the score and the time remaining is.

The teams you see that shut others out like those traditionally coached (as an obvious example because there's a lot more) by Mourinho or Simeone are teams that are tactically formatted to defend and bide their time (I'm being very sparse and basic with that description because it's a lot more complicated) and capitalise.  I won't go into why each individual coach does it because there are differing reasons as to why each one does it and isn't important in this argument.  Those teams will have better defensive records because of the tactics and not necessarily because of the individual defenders they have in their squad.  It's about coaching and each coach's ideals!

 

Anyhow...  If defending is crap across the whole of Europe, then we have a status quo and with it we are still in the same argument and doesn't affect the Champions League where defensive stakes are concerned because those European teams also play in their respective leagues and if their defenders are crap in European competition, then they're crap on domestic fronts too.

I don't exactly agree with the individuality argument. Godin has been just as good for both Uruguay and Atletico Madrid for example so you can't exactly say that its all Simeone who's making him work if that's what you were trying to get at. I wouldn't say the same for Bonucci as for a while Juve has played similarly to the national team. Ramos to me has never been a top player defensively, and how many managers have Real Madrid had since 2010?

 

You make a very good pointe especially since Peru's manager Gareca has gotten some defenders of low level to work brilliantly against the top players but I'm still believing that central defenders aren't as good these days as they were in the past regardless of how the game has evolved.

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12 minutes ago, LaSambadeStGermain said:

I agree that the CB's are of a lower standard than usual and have been saying for a long time that to me the only defenders who can be deemed as world class are Godin and Bonucci. Ramos gets all the attention for scoring the goals from corners but Godin also does that and defensively he's much superior to Ramos. 

 

I disagree on the fullbacks though. Alaba is a cracking player who's had success in other positions. Alex Sandro may not be a historic player but he's also very good as is Marcelo.

Marcelo is a heap of junk as a defender mate.

Defenders are as good as ever!  Football is different as I said in my previous posts.  Obviously one defender is better than another because we're talking about individuals here, but they weren't superior in the past on the whole (again let's leave out individuals) because football was different.  This is a football issue and not an individual one.

Anyway, I took Spike up on that comment where he agreed with Artful Dodger on that the Champions League was of a low standard and Spike said it was down to European football on the whole having bad defending.  Even if that were the case (something I don't agree with) it has nothing to do with the Champions League as a completion.  The Champions League houses the best sides on the continent and they fight it out amongst themselves...  Once they get past the mundane league part of it, that's where you are measured and put to the sword as you progress.  I said that Kanté will be measured next season "against the GOOD sides" in Europe when Chelsea face them and there we'll see if he overcomes and dominates his counterpart midfielder because that's where football is won and lost, that's where football is defended and attacked these days.  If you then happen to have goldust up front, then your job is made easier on the conversion rates when the midfielders create the chances and steal the important balls at the important moments.

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10 minutes ago, Dickie said:

I've always rated Sergio Ramos, I'd take him over Pique in a heartbeat every time. I do think that also has to do with the fact that the guy is aces on scoring in the most opportune moments for set pieces.

How is Ramos better than Piqué mate?  Because he scores more goals? O.o

Piqué is by far the superior "defender" but Ramos is "epic" to put it mildly.

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52 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

How is Ramos better than Piqué mate?  Because he scores more goals? O.o

Piqué is by far the superior "defender" but Ramos is "epic" to put it mildly.

I think he's a better overall player personally. Like defender wise I'm a big fan but also he has his epic moments which help his cause.

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Defending's a lot about shape anyway rather than individuals. Obviously you need the individuals to hold that shape but look at us last year. Wes Morgan, Robert Huth, Danny Simpson, Christian Fuchs. Absolutely solid as a back four. 11 clean sheets in 15 games over one period. Yet not one of them would get probably in the squad of another team in currently in the top six of our league (possibly Fuchs excepted). Structure.

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3 hours ago, SirBalon said:

It's not about the quality of individual players that play in defensive positions.  It's about football mate, it's about football having changed tactically and more emphasis put on forward thinking midfielders.

In times gone past teams would wait (on the whole and ESPECIALLY in European competition) for the opportunistic moment.  Football was more conservative and even though it looked more frenetic due to longer passes being made, this was mainly due to a lack of the technique we see these days in midfielders and how far tactically aware coaches have evolved.  No top team now plays one single rigid formation within a whole match.  Now you will see the teams with top coaches play two or even three formations depending on whether or not they've got the ball or what the score and the time remaining is.

The teams you see that shut others out like those traditionally coached (as an obvious example because there's a lot more) by Mourinho or Simeone are teams that are tactically formatted to defend and bide their time (I'm being very sparse and basic with that description because it's a lot more complicated) and capitalise.  I won't go into why each individual coach does it because there are differing reasons as to why each one does it and isn't important in this argument.  Those teams will have better defensive records because of the tactics and not necessarily because of the individual defenders they have in their squad.  It's about coaching and each coach's ideals!

 

Anyhow...  If defending is crap across the whole of Europe, then we have a status quo and with it we are still in the same argument and doesn't affect the Champions League where defensive stakes are concerned because those European teams also play in their respective leagues and if their defenders are crap in European competition, then they're crap on domestic fronts too.

That is what I said without writing a bible about it xD 'Forwards and the midfield have reached a new plateau. They have evolved with the times, the defence has not'. Forwards and midfielders have undergone a revolution in the last decade but the defence has not, it's still the same as it always was, so it's lagging behind. It's why there is such a huge discrepancy in goals scored these days. There hasn't been a huge leap forward in defensive culture since the offside rule was changed. Defending hasn't gotten worse it has stagnated, until their is a stylistic and tactical evolution to defending it will continue to lag behind offence.

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2 hours ago, Dan said:

Defending's a lot about shape anyway rather than individuals. Obviously you need the individuals to hold that shape but look at us last year. Wes Morgan, Robert Huth, Danny Simpson, Christian Fuchs. Absolutely solid as a back four. 11 clean sheets in 15 games over one period. Yet not one of them would get probably in the squad of another team in currently in the top six of our league (possibly Fuchs excepted). Structure.

I said this before and got yelled at by Salford Kel... 

 

I think a big thing to take into consideration was that this was the first time in a very long time that this statement reigned true. Also I was gonna say I always rated Fuchs since his time at Schalke. 

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7 hours ago, Spike said:

That is what I said without writing a bible about it xD 'Forwards and the midfield have reached a new plateau. They have evolved with the times, the defence has not'. Forwards and midfielders have undergone a revolution in the last decade but the defence has not, it's still the same as it always was, so it's lagging behind. It's why there is such a huge discrepancy in goals scored these days. There hasn't been a huge leap forward in defensive culture since the offside rule was changed. Defending hasn't gotten worse it has stagnated, until their is a stylistic and tactical evolution to defending it will continue to lag behind offence.

So why did you agree with Artful Dodger?

This isn't a Champions League issue, it's a football one in general.  If the defending is crap in the Champions League, then it's crap in each individual league minus a few teams that are setup to defend rather than be brave and play.

Also...  On the side of defenders not evolving.  They have, they've had to become footballers that actually know what to do with the ball.  They have to be able to defend, be the most disciplined individuals on the pitch tactically and now they have to be able to play football.  In days gone past they were lumps of wood as big and wide as you could get and that's it.  Like you said on the off-side rule change...  The defenders of the past even had that easier and could also pass back to the keeper who would pick up the ball.  This is why Franz Beckenbauer stood out...  The first defender that could actually run with the ball and understand the simple physics behind a measured midrange pass.

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4 hours ago, SirBalon said:

So why did you agree with Artful Dodger?

This isn't a Champions League issue, it's a football one in general.  If the defending is crap in the Champions League, then it's crap in each individual league minus a few teams that are setup to defend rather than be brave and play.

Also...  On the side of defenders not evolving.  They have, they've had to become footballers that actually know what to do with the ball.  They have to be able to defend, be the most disciplined individuals on the pitch tactically and now they have to be able to play football.  In days gone past they were lumps of wood as big and wide as you could get and that's it.  Like you said on the off-side rule change...  The defenders of the past even had that easier and could also pass back to the keeper who would pick up the ball.  This is why Franz Beckenbauer stood out...  The first defender that could actually run with the ball and understand the simple physics behind a measured midrange pass.

I agreed with Artful Dodger because the forwards and midfield is playing at such a high level these days it makes the defence look bad, and when 2/3 of the players are beyond the 1/3 the quality drops. 

I never said it was strictly a CL issue, we were just discussing the CL. Stop moving the goal posts! There have been defenders with technical skills for the past decade and a half, that isn't a recent change. Franz Beckenbauer isn't relevant to a contemporary discussion.

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The death of the traditional no.10, replaced by wide-playmakers and the false-9

Centre-forwards being replaced as the elite striking force with wide-strikers and the false-9.

Wingers are no longer the chalk on boots whip in a cross type.The new winger is just the attacking-mifielder or as I mentioned earlier the wide-playmaker.

The triangle passing and triangle pressing of the midfield popularised by del Bosque, Pep and Aragones. 

The defensive midfielder has changed completely. The fusion of players like Xavi and Mascherano into all-round destroyers and creators like Busquets, Alonso, Cambiasso and Fernandinho.

That is just listing off a few changes. What has happened with the defender? The CB is largely the same as it was a decade ago, the fullback has move further up the pitch with the new 'wingback' style but it's arguable that had already happened by the 90s with players like Cafu and Carlos. The only noticeable change that is happening is the fusion of the fullback and the wide-midfielder, you could probably see David Beckham playing as a 'wingback' under Conte if he was coaching ManUtd in the 99.

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1 hour ago, Spike said:

The death of the traditional no.10, replaced by wide-playmakers and the false-9

Centre-forwards being replaced as the elite striking force with wide-strikers and the false-9.

Wingers are no longer the chalk on boots whip in a cross type.The new winger is just the attacking-mifielder or as I mentioned earlier the wide-playmaker.

The triangle passing and triangle pressing of the midfield popularised by del Bosque, Pep and Aragones. 

The defensive midfielder has changed completely. The fusion of players like Xavi and Mascherano into all-round destroyers and creators like Busquets, Alonso, Cambiasso and Fernandinho.

That is just listing off a few changes. What has happened with the defender? The CB is largely the same as it was a decade ago, the fullback has move further up the pitch with the new 'wingback' style but it's arguable that had already happened by the 90s with players like Cafu and Carlos. The only noticeable change that is happening is the fusion of the fullback and the wide-midfielder, you could probably see David Beckham playing as a 'wingback' under Conte if he was coaching ManUtd in the 99.

I agree with a lot of that and there's more to the change in football that actually all began in the late 80s.

But the centre halve has changed massively as he now has to be a ball player as I have mentioned in the post where you say I'm moving the goal posts. Didn't move anything whatsoever mate. 

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Kante cleans up, and is easily the best midfielder in the world at. There is also a little technical side to his game, more so than Makelele anyway. 

Bakayoko and Kante would complement each other brilliantly. 

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33 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I agree with a lot of that and there's more to the change in football that actually all began in the late 80s.

But the centre halve has changed massively as he now has to be a ball player as I have mentioned in the post where you say I'm moving the goal posts. Didn't move anything whatsoever mate. 

I said that, but it isn't a new development. Puyol, Terry, Lucio, Hierro, Nesta, Blanc, Ayala, Carvalho, Ferdinand, are all players that had great technical skills for a CB and they all started their careers in the 90s. I think it all started when the offside rule was changed forcing many sweepers to readjust to life as a CB (remember the sweeper you mentioned earlier? Koeman, Bergomi, Baresi, Sammer, Mattheus, all technical players). Again, this isn't contemporary, it's something that happened over two decades ago whereas the new change in style for forwards in and the midfield has been the last 5 to 10 years.

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Even a player you mentioned in the '365's Best Starting XI of All Time' Scirea, another technical defender. Just because it is the norm now for defenders to be technical doesn't mean it's new.

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  • 1 month later...

Can I just stop by and share Kante on FM 13?

For those wondering why he's on Chelsea, its because it was on a mates save and he bought him for a laugh.

272018e437a8f3f02f4f984c758d7c95.png

That 1 tackling

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He was my favourite player to watch last season and for me the best in the league last campaign and I was over the moon when we signed him. He's a fantastic player and he suits the Premier League where athleticism, power and pace thrives over technical ability. I do think he had a better season with Leicester but nevertheless he has been class this season as well and he was the perfect signing for us as I had been constantly moaning about the Matic and Fabregas pivot and how we needed a player of Kante's mould to come in for that position, he filled and solved a massive problem for us there. I do think his athleticism and fitness allows him to take his performances to another level as he grows into games and really comes alive with some big tackles and interceptions as the opposition starts to tire in the second half of matches.

His ability on the ball and attacking output could improve but we do have a lot of other players who can take care of that part of the game for us. As noted, he needs some big performances in the Champions League next season and it's good to see the likes of Conte and others always challenging him to improve his game.

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Kante lacks any real technique in his passing and control but he makes some very good passes, the blokes ability to turn defence into attack is exceptional. The speed he does things is the clincher.

We've brought in Ndidi for him now who is a good player, but he isn't Kante. Kante is a one in a million for someone like us. I know a big Chelsea fan who said their group of mates were talking about Kante being the next Makelele and they said it's actually harsh on Kante to say that, as they think he's even better.

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Kante maybe a tad overrated in some aspects of his game. His passing range could be improved, his technique could improve, his attacking prowess could be improved, but.... In his position, doing the job he's employed to do which is breaking up play, winning the ball, screaning the defence, he is in my opinion the best in the world. His stamina is incredible. 

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