Greatest & Most Influential Civilization

[Spike]

7 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

In what sense are you thinking?

I actually think in historical hindsight Cromwell made a hash of things. The Glorious Revolution got the job done a bit more efficiently instead.

I never said he did a good job. The mark he made changes everything for better or worse.

[Honey Honey]

15 minutes ago, Spike said:

I never said he did a good job. The mark he made changes everything for better or worse.

Yeah but I mean what mark? Much was reversed after his death. Even what he did do was fudged and a betrayal of the intellectual thought among the army leadership. 

[Spike]

17 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

Yeah but I mean what mark? Much was reversed after his death. Even what he did do was fudged and a betrayal of the intellectual thought among the army leadership. 

You don’t think Cromwell forever set in stone English resentment in Ireland or anti-monarchism on the UK?

[Kowabunga]

10 hours ago, El Profesor said:

There is a very interesting anecdote I listened on the "History of Byzantium" podcast that ilustrates how the "Byzantium" - "Rome" dichotomy is anachronic. Byzantium was Rome. In that sense,  one could argue the roman empire survived until 1453 and not until 476.

And until very recently, in some parts of Greece, the inhabitants still considered themselves "romans". 

Arguably you may as well be tempted to project some of the "Romeness" past to the Ottoman empire (at least among the elites)

F. Asli Ergul (2012) The Ottoman Identity: Turkish, Muslim or Rum?, Middle Eastern Studies, 48:4, 629-645, DOI: 10.1080/00263206.2012.683337

[Harry]

This thread is a great read! 

 

[Beelzebub]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

This thread is a great read! 

 

It makes me wonder that whether i'm too dump that i don't know anything about these things or others are too smart.

I guess its the former.

[El Profesor]

8 hours ago, Kowabunga said:

Arguably you may as well be tempted to project some of the "Romeness" past to the Ottoman empire (at least among the elites)

F. Asli Ergul (2012) The Ottoman Identity: Turkish, Muslim or Rum?, Middle Eastern Studies, 48:4, 629-645, DOI: 10.1080/00263206.2012.683337

Thanks for sharing this. 

Yes, Mehmet II claimed the title of "Kaiser-i-Rum" ("Caesar of the Romans"). The basis of the claim is explained here: 

 

Quote

In 1466, the Greek philosopher George of Trebizond legitimized this claim as:

“No one should doubt that you are the Emperor of the Romans. The person, who legally holds the capital city of the Empire, is the Emperor and the capital city of the Roman Empire is Constantinople.”

 

The Orthodox Church also legitimazed the claim, as the Sultan was viewed as a protector of Orthodoxy. The relationship between roman catholics and the orthodox worsened during the Crusades, culminating in the Sack of Constatinople in 1204. 

Gradually, the turks claim as continuation of the Roman Empire lost strenght. I don´t know the reason. Perhaps due to their battles with Holy Roman Empire and the Russian Empire who also used viewed themselves as sucessors of Rome?

The Russian empire also claimed the "Third Rome" title. This is Nicholas II and Alexandra in traditional byzantine dress:

 

 

But this is an incorrect claim, of course, as it doesn´t do justice to the impact of the mongols in the formation of Russia. From what I read, their political system is heavily influenced by the mongol invasion.

 

Quote

Perhaps the most fundamental consequence of the Mongol rule was the divergence of Russian civilization from the West. During the period of Kievan Rus’, Russia was on a parallel track with Europe and its Latin Christian civilization. Following the Mongol invasion and the destruction of Kiev, the distance between Russia and Europe widened, and Russian society evolved along more distinctly different lines than it had a few centuries earlier. While the ideas of freedom and justice were gaining strength in Europe, Russia was institutionalizing serfdom, which was another direct result of the Mongol rule. While Europe was witnessing extraordinary development with new ideas and the introduction of scientific methods, particularly during the Renaissance, Russian society was experiencing a traditional, stagnant life based on small-scale agricultural production.

As was laid out in the previous sections of this paper, both the Western and Eurasian schools established a direct link between the Mongol rule and the foundation of an autocratic and to some extent despotic Tsarist Russian State.

Another undeniable seed that the Mongol invasion planted in Russian society is a deep sense of insecurity. The fear of being overrun and subjugated, either by a Western or Eastern power, made unity and cohesiveness a high-priority value in Russian society and the Russian state. The Russians were highly divided among themselves when the Mongol invasion started and this facilitated their easy defeat. This painful experience demonstrated to the Russians the necessity of building a strong centralist state, first to overthrow the Mongols and then to be ready for other similar attempts aimed at the occupation of Russian territories. In fact, history acknowledged the necessity of Russian unity as the Russians had to fight against foreign intruders during Napoleon’s Russian campaign and in the First and Second World Wars. If the Mongol invasion had not taken place, it is highly possible that the Russians would have remained divided and would have been absorbed by their powerful neighbors: Poles, Lithuanians, and others.

https://www.ijors.net/issue5_2_2016/articles/cicek.html

 

 

[El Profesor]

On 13/07/2018 at 11:07, Eco said:

My Dad and I were discussing this very topic recently, and I thought I would get some thoughts. It came up after discussing Egypt, and how they essentially went from leading the world in almost every category, to now being a pretty rough place. 

England/Great Britain was my father's answer. So long have they been a power and leader, plus they have spread their language and culture into other major countries like USA, Canada, India, and Australia.  

We ended up discuss Spain and France as also contenders. 

What are your thoughts are on this topic? 

In my opinion, the fact so many former spanish colonies are ranked some of the most dangerous countries in the world is a big black stain on the legacy of Spain as a civilization. 

I counted 13 of the top 50 countries in intentional homicide rate as being former spanish colonies. And the most dangerous country in Asia is unsurprisingly the Philippines. I don´t think it´s a coincidence.

 

[Inverted]

On 19/07/2018 at 22:11, RandoEFC said:

You ever read about the guy who continued his Civ 2 save for literal years? Interesting read:

https://www.pcgamer.com/ten-year-game-of-civ-2-results-in-hellish-nightmare-planet-permanent-nuclear-war/

 

The funniest thing about that save was the fact that even throughout almost 2 millennia of 2 backstabbing totalitarian theocracies and a communist super-dictatorship waging trans-continental genocide against each other, the UN had still been there trying to get them to sign ceasefires. 

You don't get that kinda realism in the modern Civ franchise.

[Harry]

On 21/07/2018 at 00:39, Devon Von Devon said:

It makes me wonder that whether i'm too dump that i don't know anything about these things or others are too smart.

I guess its the former.

Not dumb mate just ignorant on the subject. I'm the same. I had very high academic performance but never studied history beyond middle years of high school and prefer to read fiction than fact so I'm not well placed for this debate. 

In Australia tho history doesn't seem to be as engrained into students as it does in the US or Europe.... 

[Inverted]

On 20/07/2018 at 15:39, Devon Von Devon said:

It makes me wonder that whether i'm too dump that i don't know anything about these things or others are too smart.

I guess its the former.

Nah it's more just the fact that schools aren't set up well to teach us very much about world history to any useful level, and then once you're out of school, even if you can make the time to try and teach yourself, there's basically so much out there to learn about that it's daunting to even think about where you start.

I consider myself a bit of a history buff and I read a lot of history, and even then, 90% of the time I have no clue what people are talking about. All this stuff about early medieval England is completely new to me, for example. Not to mention how little I know about ancient history, or far-eastern history. 

You can read dozens and dozens of history books and still only have a decent understanding of the history of one or two continents. That's just the sad condition of us humans: we have an enormous history, but not very much time, or very big memories. 

[RandoEFC+]

History in schools at least in the UK isn't taught for the sake of History. It's taught from the angle of analysing sources and build in critical thinking skills so that a GCSE or A Level qualification in History sets you up to apply for degrees in Law and similar professions.

I love learning about history but I also have a terrible attention span when it comes to sitting down myself and reading.

[Guest]

On 22/07/2018 at 12:34, RandoEFC said:

History in schools at least in the UK isn't taught for the sake of History. It's taught from the angle of analysing sources and build in critical thinking skills so that a GCSE or A Level qualification in History sets you up to apply for degrees in Law and similar professions.

I love learning about history but I also have a terrible attention span when it comes to sitting down myself and reading.

I'm like that. I wish i enjoyed reading but just can't . Dont mind an autobiography though read Alex Ferguson's and Roy Keanes . Before i read keanes I thought he was an assshole. After I read it i was shore 

[bozziovai]

On 21/07/2018 at 03:01, El Profesor said:

In my opinion, the fact so many former spanish colonies are ranked some of the most dangerous countries in the world is a big black stain on the legacy of Spain as a civilization. 

I counted 13 of the top 50 countries in intentional homicide rate as being former spanish colonies. And the most dangerous country in Asia is unsurprisingly the Philippines. I don´t think it´s a coincidence.

 

UNSURPRISINGLY ???   have you expected that my country is that dangerous ??   in terms of what ?? kindly expound please ...........

 

back on topic.     for me Jericho and Sumerian civilization.    everything began with them ....

[El Profesor]

11 hours ago, bozziovai said:

UNSURPRISINGLY ???   have you expected that my country is that dangerous ??   in terms of what ?? kindly expound please ...........

 

 

No, I mentioned unsurprisingly in the context of the point I was making about spanish colonization. In comparison to Brazil, Philippines is very safe. Sorry it sounded like I was looking down on your country, that was not my intention. 

[bozziovai]

18 hours ago, El Profesor said:

No, I mentioned unsurprisingly in the context of the point I was making about spanish colonization. In comparison to Brazil, Philippines is very safe. Sorry it sounded like I was looking down on your country, that was not my intention. 

no my friend.   i didn't felt that way.  that all caps was just to highlight the word, i'll use quotations next time    all i wanted was to know the outlook of other nationalities of our country      and sorry if i sounded aggressive on my question.   

[Carnivore Chris]

On 22/07/2018 at 12:34, RandoEFC said:

History in schools at least in the UK isn't taught for the sake of History. It's taught from the angle of analysing sources and build in critical thinking skills so that a GCSE or A Level qualification in History sets you up to apply for degrees in Law and similar professions.

I love learning about history but I also have a terrible attention span when it comes to sitting down myself and reading.

The best part about school looking back were the school trips. They are fun, but at the same time educational. I remember the first trip away at secondary school where you go away for 4 days(if I remember correctly) to Great Tower up in the Lake District. At 11, it's the first real time away from home without the parents, you're out in the wilderness learning to cook for yourself, while you do loads of activities and meet new people(who go on to be people you know for life), then there is the France trip, which was just brilliant allround. There were also trips such as the one to Griezdale forest, Hadrian's wall(which is history related) and the likes of Leighton Moss.

 

[Berserker]

36 minutes ago, The Rebel CRS said:

The best part about school looking back were the school trips. They are fun, but at the same time educational. I remember the first trip away at secondary school where you go away for 4 days(if I remember correctly) to Great Tower up in the Lake District. At 11, it's the first real time away from home without the parents, you're out in the wilderness learning to cook for yourself, while you do loads of activities and meet new people(who go on to be people you know for life), then there is the France trip, which was just brilliant allround. There were also trips such as the one to Griezdale forest, Hadrian's wall(which is history related) and the likes of Leighton Moss.

 

I agree mate, remember going camping in primary school and it was fucking class. The horror stories around the campfire, the food on sticks, love that shit.

[Beelzebub]

On 14/08/2018 at 00:55, Berserker said:

I agree mate, remember going camping in primary school and it was fucking class. The horror stories around the campfire, the food on sticks, love that shit.

Become homeless and you can do this forever 

[Beelzebub]

The Indus Valley Civilisation (IVC), or Harappan Civilisation, was a Bronze Agecivilisation (3300–1300 BCE; mature period 2600–1900 BCE) mainly in the northwestern regions of South Asia, extending from what today is northeast Afghanistan to Pakistanand northwest India. Along with Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, it was one of three early cradles of civilisations of the Old World, and of the three, the most widespread.

 

Why isn't the Indus Valley Civilization given the same attention as Egyptian and Mesopotamian Civilization ?

 

[Beelzebub]

............

[Beelzebub]

Another prime example about how much ignored the Indus Civilization is that how much the Persian benefited by their invasion of the Indus Valley under Achaemenid Empire is never discussed. Who further influenced the Arabs after they invaded them.

[nudge+]

Didn't know where else to put it and didn't want to open a new thread... But some interesting stuff here: LiDAR scans revealed that the ancient Mayan population likely peaked around 11 million people, which is about double what scientists thought. The new survey also found over 60,000 previously unknown structures sprawling for miles around city centers, which suggests the civilization was also extremely complex. 

An interesting read: https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/09/what-61000-hidden-structures-reveal-about-maya-civilization/