The Gay Man vs Bakery Court Case

[Dr. Gonzo]

51 minutes ago, Danny said:

He refused to ice the cake, that is a service his company provides. He refused to do it because he doesn't agree with gay marriage, that is bigotry. The failure to provide a service because of his bigotry is discrimination.

The law is hiding behind religious views to allow discrimination, it's not the first time it's happened and won't be the last. Marriage is not a religious ceremony, it is a legal ceremony, and the law currently discriminates against homosexuals in Northern Ireland.

He refused to ice a cake to convey a specific message he doesn't agree with. If the couple had asked for a cake to have icing without that message on it, there would be no issue here. Now don't get me wrong, I think the guy is a bigot. But you can't compel people to make something in support of a political view they don't share.

Now what I think is most fucked up about this case is that the order was initially accepted and then later they refused to fulfill the order. The right thing to do would have been to have rejected the order from the get go.

As I've said earlier, there's no way they couldn't find another bakery in Belfast that would make the cake they wanted. So if their request had been rejected from the off, it would have been far easier for them to go find a non-bigoted bakery. I also think that the gay community in Belfast and those who support gay marriage have good reason to boycott this bakery and spread the word that the family who runs it are a bunch of bigoted twats and other bakers are less morally reprehensible and deserve more business. Because that's just capitalism.

I wonder if this means that printing companies can now refuse to print political ads for Tories and shite like this though.

[Danny]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

He refused to ice a cake to convey a specific message he doesn't agree with. If the couple had asked for a cake to have icing without that message on it, there would be no issue here. Now don't get me wrong, I think the guy is a bigot. But you can't compel people to make something in support of a political view they don't share.

Now what I think is most fucked up about this case is that the order was initially accepted and then later they refused to fulfill the order. The right thing to do would have been to have rejected the order from the get go.

As I've said earlier, there's no way they couldn't find another bakery in Belfast that would make the cake they wanted. So if their request had been rejected from the off, it would have been far easier for them to go find a non-bigoted bakery. I also think that the gay community in Belfast and those who support gay marriage have good reason to boycott this bakery and spread the word that the family who runs it are a bunch of bigoted twats and other bakers are less morally reprehensible and deserve more business. Because that's just capitalism.

I wonder if this means that printing companies can now refuse to print political ads for Tories and shite like this though.

It's still a service provided though isn't it. I get why they didn't do it. I get why the court has ruled in their favour.

I get that the law in NI also supports the family because same sex marriage is not legal. But being against same sex marriage is homophobic and refusing to provide a service because you don't want someone to convey a message of equality is discrimination.

What NI really needs is full equality for homosexuals in the form of same sex marriage and then this shit won't be happening, because legally it'd no longer be about political stance but about discrimination.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Danny said:

It's still a service provided though isn't it. I get why they didn't do it. I get why the court has ruled in their favour.

I get that the law in NI also supports the family because same sex marriage is not legal. But being against same sex marriage is homophobic and refusing to provide a service because you don't want someone to convey a message of equality is discrimination.

What NI really needs is full equality for homosexuals in the form of same sex marriage and then this shit won't be happening, because legally it'd no longer be about political stance but about discrimination.

That will require a few generations of Northern Irishmen to either ditch being religious extremists... or die off. Societal progress is generally slow when there's large groups of ultra-religious people around.

[Danny]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

That will require a few generations of Northern Irishmen to either ditch being religious extremists... or die off. Societal progress is generally slow when there's large groups of ultra-religious people around.

Its why religion should never be mixed with politics, legitimising bigotry through religious beliefs helps create situations where discrimination is seen as a positive thing.

[SirBalon]

From what I've understood from the beginning (followed the case briefly at the start) was that the bakery was targeted by those that eventually ordered the cake.

Equality is paramount in a modern educated and non ignorant society but then again full-on equality doesn't even exist in the countries that purport to be exactly that.  

Also... Remember that you get extremist views on all sides of the fence because one can boycott an establishment that fails to believe in equality, one can use social media these days with all the online services available to show up bigots.  But targeting and trying to ruin a family's life even if they are bigots is under the table tactics even if they (those that took the bakery to court) have the sympathy of the majority of normal, well educated accepting people in principle.

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, SirBalon said:

From what I've understood from the beginning (followed the case briefly at the start) was that the bakery was targeted by those that eventually ordered the cake.

Equality is paramount in a modern educated and non ignorant society but then again full-on equality doesn't even exist in the countries that purport to be exactly that.  

Also... Remember that you get extremist views on all sides of the fence because one can boycott an establishment that fails to believe in equality, one can use social media these days with all the online services available to show up bigots.  But targeting and trying to ruin a family's life even if they are bigots is under the table tactics even if they (those that took the bakery to court) have the sympathy of the majority of normal, well educated accepting people in principle.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with boycotting businesses because their owners are morally questionable tbh.

[SirBalon]

27 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with boycotting businesses because their owners are morally questionable tbh.

What I’m saying is that this would’ve been a more ethical method than targeting them in the first place. You almost lose your moral high ground. 

[6666]

A simple response of "we don't do political messages of any sort" straight away could've saved them a lot of trouble.

Is it bigoted for them to be against gay marriage? Or is it pro-gay to stop gays from ruining their lives by getting married? That's the real conundrum.

[Cicero]

19 hours ago, Danny said:

He refused to ice the cake, that is a service his company provides. He refused to do it because he doesn't agree with gay marriage, that is bigotry. The failure to provide a service because of his bigotry is discrimination.

The law is hiding behind religious views to allow discrimination, it's not the first time it's happened and won't be the last. Marriage is not a religious ceremony, it is a legal ceremony, and the law currently discriminates against homosexuals in Northern Ireland.

That is why positive and negative rights frequently conflict.

The law protects any sort of power being leveraged over you. In this scenario, the gay couple has the positive right to request a service from the baker, whereas the baker has the negative right to refuse to do something that he doesn't want to do.

This in itself creates inherent conflict, and because of it, the law steps in and protects your individual rights. Now if the baker was outright refusing to make them a cake on the basis of their orientation, that would be discrimination. That isn't the case because he's made them cakes before and will continue to make them cakes. It is the bakers fundamental right, to object any political, religious, or philosophical principal.  He didn't want to make a gay cake. Again, the law protects your individual rights should there be any inherent conflict. 

It doesn't even have to be gay marriage. Whether it be political, controversial, philosophical, etc, you have the individual right to object it. Not being tolerant of gay marriage but still being kind and equal to homosexuals isn't discrimination or being homophobic. 

 

 

 

[Stan]

Is it definitely true that the couple specifically targeted this bakery, knowing they would reject the message they requested? If so, that's pretty low considering they could have saved so much hassle and time and money. 

What if the bakery feels their reputation has been tarnished now? Do they get compensated? 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 minute ago, Stan said:

Is it definitely true that the couple specifically targeted this bakery, knowing they would reject the message they requested? If so, that's pretty low considering they could have saved so much hassle and time and money. 

What if the bakery feels their reputation has been tarnished now? Do they get compensated? 

If they were targeted knowing it would be rejected, wouldn’t they already have the reputation of being anti-gay?

[nudge+]

Asher was a tribe of Israel who had skilled bakers and created bread fit for a king and that's why that's the name of the bakery... So I'm pretty sure their religious beliefs and principles would have been well known for the locals.

[Stan]

13 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

If they were targeted knowing it would be rejected, wouldn’t they already have the reputation of being anti-gay?

Possibly. Or maybe they just wanted to test it for themselves and see what the boundaries were. 

[nudge+]

Or maybe they just wanted to gain more publicity and leverage in their quest to get same-sex marriages legalised. You don't sue anyone for something as silly as this if you don't have political agenda (or if you're not after the money); especially considering they got their cake made by some other bakery anyway.

[Danny]

4 hours ago, Cicero said:

That is why positive and negative rights frequently conflict.

The law protects any sort of power being leveraged over you. In this scenario, the gay couple has the positive right to request a service from the baker, whereas the baker has the negative right to refuse to do something that he doesn't want to do.

This in itself creates inherent conflict, and because of it, the law steps in and protects your individual rights. Now if the baker was outright refusing to make them a cake on the basis of their orientation, that would be discrimination. That isn't the case because he's made them cakes before and will continue to make them cakes. It is the bakers fundamental right, to object any political, religious, or philosophical principal.  He didn't want to make a gay cake. Again, the law protects your individual rights should there be any inherent conflict. 

It doesn't even have to be gay marriage. Whether it be political, controversial, philosophical, etc, you have the individual right to object it. Not being tolerant of gay marriage but still being kind and equal to homosexuals isn't discrimination or being homophobic. 

 

 

 

Except being against same sex marriage is homophobic, regardless of whatever religious reason is cited.

And again icing is a service they failed to provide because of their homophobia. But the law protects them, I get it, it's just a "political stance" in this case rather than what it is elsewhere in the UK, equality.

We're going to go around in circles debating this so feel free not to reply.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

It's really simple. Not providing a service based on someones minority is bigotry. But that's not exatly whats going on. This isn't a case of "You're gay, im not gonna bake you a cake." this is "I'm not gonna bake a homo cake, no matter who you are" Replace a gay message with one of racism, or some lewd act, and this would be a non issue. if I went to  Brisbane bakery and asked them to bake a Collingwood cake, or a cake that said 'I hate inbread cunts who build their houses in a fucking disaster zone, cry when they're destroyed by flooding, then rebuild on the same fucking spot and lose it all again in 3 years' they'd probably refuse that too.

 

 Danny, they really did take both your balls didn't they. Being anti gay marriage isn't homophobic, you twat. Marriage was historically, very specifically the union between a man and a woman. We literally had to change the defenition of marriage and pass laws to allow for it. I voted yes to gay marriage in Austrlalias plebiscite, but have nothing against anyone who didn't want hundreds of years of church doctrine torn down by people who have never stepped in a church in their lives.

[Fairy In Boots]

You often find in these cases that the “offended” couple have gone well out of their way to source a service from a business likely to say no on principle. It’s private business they can do as they please, for that reason plus it’s mainly attention seeking victimhood im on the bakers side

[Harry]

On 12/10/2018 at 07:32, Danny said:

He refused to ice the cake, that is a service his company provides. He refused to do it because he doesn't agree with gay marriage, that is bigotry. The failure to provide a service because of his bigotry is discrimination.

The law is hiding behind religious views to allow discrimination, it's not the first time it's happened and won't be the last. Marriage is not a religious ceremony, it is a legal ceremony, and the law currently discriminates against homosexuals in Northern Ireland.

If he'd said paedophilia should be allowed? Or bestiality?

Should there be anything beyond the boundaries of the law he could refuse to transcribe? 

 

[The Artful Dodger]

6 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

You often find in these cases that the “offended” couple have gone well out of their way to source a service from a business likely to say no on principle. It’s private business they can do as they please, for that reason plus it’s mainly attention seeking victimhood im on the bakers side

I'm sure you would love that to be the case, but you're wrong. Businesses serving the public must abide by the normal discrimination laws.

In this case, as has been proven, the discrimination can be defended as not against what this person is but a particular political message. The judge is right in ruling in the Baker's favour on this occasion, although it can lead to situations where apparent bigots get their way,  the alternative is worse.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

20 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I'm sure you would love that to be the case, but you're wrong. Businesses serving the public must abide by the normal discrimination laws.

In this case, as has been proven, the discrimination can be defended as not against what this person is but a particular political message. The judge is right in ruling in the Baker's favour on this occasion, although it can lead to situations where apparent bigots get their way,  the alternative is worse.

 

This is some highly reasonable shit right here. The difference between you and Danny is you understand that the law falls on the side of the baker, and more importantly, understand why it's important for the law to do so.

[Cicero]

Your individual rights is what the law protects should someone try to leverage power over you. 

[RandoEFC+]

A lot of people have made very good points here. 

The baker is offering a service. If they decide that icing cakes with potentially provocative political messages isn't part of the service they want to provide then that's down to them.

It's not out of the question that someone who was massively against gay marriage could come and throw a brick through the bakery window for icing that onto a cake, you just wouldn't get involved if it's an issue like that.