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The Jorginho / Kante Debate

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@True Blue @Bluewolf @carefreeluke @Spike

Thoughts on this? 

Vastly worrying that the majority of the Chelsea fan base, are now asking for Kante to be our DM or have a pivot of Jorginho and Kante. 

Now whilst I do agree that this may be a short term option that could immediately fix the space we leave in midfield, I am completely against it. This club went through hurdles to sign Sarri. In terms of football, bar none one of the most purist managers on the planet. We went through thick and thin to bring him in. It is evident that the club want to head towards a more positive brand of football, and did all they could to bring him here. 

That said, Sarri has a fundamental blueprint. He has a solid idea on what he's trying to build, and I rather he sticks to it vs adapts to get short term results. This club needs change, and I am willing to give up a season for it to happen. If Sarri reverts to the same defensive type this team and players are used to, the players will get comfortable, complacent, and will subconsciously stop listening to him. We've seen this happen before and the moment Sarri does it, ut will be the beginning of his downfall and will bring us right back to where we were. Suffer now, and reap the rewards later. 

Look at Pep's first season with City. Or Klopp's with Liverpool. To be a success here, both pundits and neutrals were asking both managers to adapt their tactics or to become more defensive in a 'faster paced league'. What happened the next season? City dominates the league breaking numerous records and Liverpool reach the CL final. This transition, takes time. 

To summarise, we NEED TO STOP reverting to short term fixes. This won't progress us and will inevitably put us back to square one, looking for a new manager. It's time we are patient and build on to something. Even if Sarri becomes a failure, he has laid out a blueprint that given enough time, it is proven to work. Also, we now just suffered our first loss of the season. For a team in transition, that is pretty remarkable. When you analyse the performances, it is blatant that the biggest issue, is personnel. A select few just aren't good enough technically for this system. Our midfield balance in terms of pressing is our second biggest issue, however this can be fixed given time. I am sure of it. 

 

 

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Kinell, Chelsea have lost one game all season and anyone would think their whole world had come crashing down xD

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5 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Kinell, Chelsea have lost one game all season and anyone would think their whole world had come crashing down xD

Is that what you got out of my post? 

 

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15 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Is that what you got out of my post? 

 

Not just yours no. 

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4 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Not just yours no. 

Did you even read it? My guess is no. 

It's merely a summary on why Chelsea fans shouldn't be overreacting 

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3 hours ago, Cicero said:

@True Blue @Bluewolf @carefreeluke @Spike

Thoughts on this? 

Vastly worrying that the majority of the Chelsea fan base, are now asking for Kante to be our DM or have a pivot of Jorginho and Kante. 

Now whilst I do agree that this may be a short term option that could immediately fix the space we leave in midfield, I am completely against it. This club went through hurdles to sign Sarri. In terms of football, bar none one of the most purist managers on the planet. We went through thick and thin to bring him in. It is evident that the club want to head towards a more positive brand of football, and did all they could to bring him here. 

That said, Sarri has a fundamental blueprint. He has a solid idea on what he's trying to build, and I rather he sticks to it vs adapts to get short term results. This club needs change, and I am willing to give up a season for it to happen. If Sarri reverts to the same defensive type this team and players are used to, the players will get comfortable, complacent, and will subconsciously stop listening to him. We've seen this happen before and the moment Sarri does it, ut will be the beginning of his downfall and will bring us right back to where we were. Suffer now, and reap the rewards later. 

Look at Pep's first season with City. Or Klopp's with Liverpool. To be a success here, both pundits and neutrals were asking both managers to adapt their tactics or to become more defensive in a 'faster paced league'. What happened the next season? City dominates the league breaking numerous records and Liverpool reach the CL final. This transition, takes time. 

To summarise, we NEED TO STOP reverting to short term fixes. This won't progress us and will inevitably put us back to square one, looking for a new manager. It's time we are patient and build on to something. Even if Sarri becomes a failure, he has laid out a blueprint that given enough time, it is proven to work. Also, we now just suffered our first loss of the season. For a team in transition, that is pretty remarkable. When you analyse the performances, it is blatant that the biggest issue, is personnel. A select few just aren't good enough technically for this system. Our midfield balance in terms of pressing is our second biggest issue, however this can be fixed given time. I am sure of it. 

 

 

Fans are idiots and that is why Sarri is the coach and not them.

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On 26/11/2018 at 15:53, Cicero said:

@True Blue @Bluewolf @carefreeluke @Spike

Thoughts on this? 

Vastly worrying that the majority of the Chelsea fan base, are now asking for Kante to be our DM or have a pivot of Jorginho and Kante. 

Now whilst I do agree that this may be a short term option that could immediately fix the space we leave in midfield, I am completely against it. This club went through hurdles to sign Sarri. In terms of football, bar none one of the most purist managers on the planet. We went through thick and thin to bring him in. It is evident that the club want to head towards a more positive brand of football, and did all they could to bring him here. 

That said, Sarri has a fundamental blueprint. He has a solid idea on what he's trying to build, and I rather he sticks to it vs adapts to get short term results. This club needs change, and I am willing to give up a season for it to happen. If Sarri reverts to the same defensive type this team and players are used to, the players will get comfortable, complacent, and will subconsciously stop listening to him. We've seen this happen before and the moment Sarri does it, ut will be the beginning of his downfall and will bring us right back to where we were. Suffer now, and reap the rewards later. 

Look at Pep's first season with City. Or Klopp's with Liverpool. To be a success here, both pundits and neutrals were asking both managers to adapt their tactics or to become more defensive in a 'faster paced league'. What happened the next season? City dominates the league breaking numerous records and Liverpool reach the CL final. This transition, takes time. 

To summarise, we NEED TO STOP reverting to short term fixes. This won't progress us and will inevitably put us back to square one, looking for a new manager. It's time we are patient and build on to something. Even if Sarri becomes a failure, he has laid out a blueprint that given enough time, it is proven to work. Also, we now just suffered our first loss of the season. For a team in transition, that is pretty remarkable. When you analyse the performances, it is blatant that the biggest issue, is personnel. A select few just aren't good enough technically for this system. Our midfield balance in terms of pressing is our second biggest issue, however this can be fixed given time. I am sure of it. 

 

 

Mehhh the Kante position has been questionable since day one. I personally feel he isn't suited as an attacking option, then again i think he has enough quality to adapt to the managers needs. Also i know that Roman has a short fuse, i can easily see Sarri stay even if we manage to go without a trophy but not without a top four spot. If he starts the next season slowly he will be axed, as our board with the owner have a clear vision. Sack a manager every season or two gets results and trophies.

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Jorginho seems to be getting lots of shit from the fans and media.

Somewhat of a one trick pony? 

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2 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Jorginho seems to be getting lots of shit from the fans and media.

Somewhat of a one trick pony? 

If i can be fair even tough he is "crucial" for Sarri and his excellent side and back passing i am not impressed. Then again each to our own.

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3 minutes ago, True Blue said:

If i can be fair even tough he is "crucial" for Sarri and his excellent side and back passing i am not impressed. Then again each to our own.

I've not really took a great deal of notice of him tbh, just going on comments I've read. 

I know @Cicero thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread but he's the only one who seems to rate him so highly. Then again, @The Liquidator said from the start that Jorginho was shite and I don't take him that seriously either. 

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3 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

I've not really took a great deal of notice of him tbh, just going on comments I've read. 

I agree with Cicero that his passing ability helps the possession football, however he rarely plays a ball forward to create a chance. He is so similar to Cesc that it makes me sick, both are very slow too. If out of place like against Spurs he can't catch up a fast player to save his life. Not really pointing him out as the starting 11 were piss against Spurs. He is also in his debut season, so time will be needed to find his best form.

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2 minutes ago, True Blue said:

I agree with Cicero that his passing ability helps the possession football, however he rarely plays a ball forward to create a chance. He is so similar to Cesc that it makes me sick, both are very slow too. If out of place like against Spurs he can't catch up a fast player to save his life. Not really pointing him out as the starting 11 were piss against Spurs. He is also in his debut season, so time will be needed to find his best form.

Which indicates to me that he's good against teams that will let you have all the possession but not very good against teams that will have a go against you?

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11 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Which indicates to me that he's good against teams that will let you have all the possession but not very good against teams that will have a go against you?

Pretty much yes, i overall think we do very well against teams weaker than us. However against teams that attack and potentially have a better team we struggle.

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6 hours ago, True Blue said:

Actually it was a true stat, against Spurs his challenge on Kane led to a goal, and Son sent him into a new dimension for the third. I would hate to get Christensen out but Luiz needs to be benched.

I think Luiz and Jorginho have something on Sarri, both can't be dropped.

Luiz needs to be dropped if that is true. Horrific. 

Jorginho is instrumental to our play. Cesc can't operate nearly as efficient given his legs have lost him. 

6 hours ago, LFCMadLad said:

Jorginho seems to be getting lots of shit from the fans and media.

Somewhat of a one trick pony? 

The 'stick' are from impatient Chelsea fans who demand instant success and English pundits who would much rather see midfielders boot the ball forward with no real direction. The main reason why we were dominated against Spurs, was the difference in energy levels. Night and day and it was embarrassing how literally every one of our players approached the game. Some players are simply not good enough, but you've already heard that from me enough. xD

Chelsea fans demanding we move Kante back to DM (which is funny because he's never been a DM) or having a pivot of Kante and Jorginho, would fix the space we leave in midfield, however our whole identity Sarri has been trying to implement will have gone to waste. We would then find ourselves back to square one. Kante is alright on the ball, but he isn't a distributor and we would forfeit our possession game and he'd be caught under pressure countless of times. A pivot of Jorginho and Kante would also get rid of the triangle passing that has allowed this team to be so effecient in possession. 

Jorginho is instrumental to how we play. Considering we've scored 28 goals this season. Tied for second highest and 2nd for chances created. We have a donkey in Morata up top and Willian who averages less than 7 league goals a season. Jorginho's ability in transition and possession, has allowed the entire team to be able to create chances given the amount of time we have the ball. Really is as simple as that. Jorginho is our only midfielder who looks to make things happen, and the people are disregard that either don't analyse him properly, or arrogant. If the latter, they are the same people who probably downplay Busquets' ability as well as he isn't a midfielder who drives forward. 

Also, we were never going to be challenging for the title. Top 4 and a trophy was and is the only goal. 

 

Given you have a knack of positing a response without actually reading the argument, here is a TLDR version. 

- We've lost our first game since August. The stick is well and truly unjustified. 

- Moving Kante to DM ruins our possession play. 

- Our possession play is the sole reason we have created so many chances and have done so well up to now. (for a team in transition) 

- Jorginho is heavily responsible for our possession play and removing him ruins our whole identity Sarri is trying to implement. 

 

I'd rather Sarri sticks to his game plan vs adjusting the team for the short term solution. The latter we've seen happen before and it ultimately means the beginning of that manager's demise. 

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It can be quite easy to fixate on one image as well, a lot of us just have an image of Jorginho trying to catch Son as he sends everyone for a hot dog. What's quite apparent is that there's a lot of space for teams to exploit in our full back positions when we lose the ball which is becoming more and more of a tactic for opposing teams as the season goes on. Everything's down to distances, positioning and pressing really and we were all over the place in this regard on Saturday, not even taking into account the mental side of things. The space opponents can exploit becomes limited when we have control over our positioning etc.

Sarri today even alluded to Kante's positioning for Spurs' third goal and said he was well out of position and this was one of numerous examples you could have taken from that game. Kante was one of the furthest forward when Son was picked out, when normally he tucks in if we're attacking on the left hand side. I'm not saying Kante here would have been in a position to heavily change the outcome of that moment and I know we were chasing the game but it's another example of poor positioning throughout the game.

 

Quote

 

The head coach explained: "I want to play a central midfielder who is a very technical player, so for me, the central midfielder is Jorginho or (Cesc) Fabregas. I don't want Kante in this position.

"Kante, in the last match, wanted to solve the match after the first 15 minutes, but in the wrong way. He lost the position, he attacked too much.

"This one is not one of the best characteristics of Kante, but it was only in reaction to the difficulties.

"Maybe it's only a question of time, but Kante has to stay near to Jorginho, especially when the ball is on the other side. When the ball is on the left he has to stay very close to Jorginho."

 

 

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@carefreeluke

Neutrals and Pundits were saying the same exact thing about Pep after they got battered 4-0 against Everton. How he needs to change his style and adapt to the league. 

 

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I agree with your first post to start this thread off @Cicero - short termism is what always fucks Chelsea over (although it's also what's gotten Chelsea success, chopping and changing managers and short term fixes work when you've got enough money to throw at your problems). But I think short termism is why you don't have the same sort of sustained success that you see from Pep's City (although that's taking the most influential manager of this era of football and giving him virtually unlimited resources, so is it surprising to see sustained success from them? Not really - it's just unfortunate for the clubs that are trying to compete with them).

The obvious problem is that Kante is an incredible defensive midfielder and when he's in that pivot role he's immense it feels like he's everywhere on the pitch. But at the same time, Jorginho is absolutely key to how Sarri sets a side up - but he's obviously got to get used to a much faster paced league and not every match is he going to be great. Whereas with Kante, he's been immense in England for 2 title winning campaigns at 2 clubs - it's hard to argue against that. A double pivot, in my books, isn't ideal because if you want to see Chelsea play Sarri-ball properly, it's just a bit too defensive. But at the same time, it's likely to be fairly effective and get the best out of Kante while also bedding Jorginho in. And for all the talk of how Chelsea need to look away from short-term solutions, we know that Roman and Co. are very results driven and not afraid to axe a manager that might have good long term ideas... and for Sarri to stay at Chelsea long term, he might have to look at short-term solutions to this problem.

If it were any other club, I'd say you've got to stick with Jorginho in the pivot and try to get Kante to be a proper box to box midfielder - I think he's got the skills required to be a huge success as a box to box midfielder. Even when he plays as a holding midfielder it seems like he's a box to box midfielder much of the time. But because it's Chelsea, I think what I'd do if I were Sarri is go with a double pivot and sacrifice some attacking flair for having a midfield that is just solid as fuck. I think that's good for Chelsea in the short term and good for Jorginho in England in the long term.

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9 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I agree with your first post to start this thread off @Cicero - short termism is what always fucks Chelsea over (although it's also what's gotten Chelsea success, chopping and changing managers and short term fixes work when you've got enough money to throw at your problems). But I think short termism is why you don't have the same sort of sustained success that you see from Pep's City (although that's taking the most influential manager of this era of football and giving him virtually unlimited resources, so is it surprising to see sustained success from them? Not really - it's just unfortunate for the clubs that are trying to compete with them).

The obvious problem is that Kante is an incredible defensive midfielder and when he's in that pivot role he's immense it feels like he's everywhere on the pitch. But at the same time, Jorginho is absolutely key to how Sarri sets a side up - but he's obviously got to get used to a much faster paced league and not every match is he going to be great. Whereas with Kante, he's been immense in England for 2 title winning campaigns at 2 clubs - it's hard to argue against that. A double pivot, in my books, isn't ideal because if you want to see Chelsea play Sarri-ball properly, it's just a bit too defensive. But at the same time, it's likely to be fairly effective and get the best out of Kante while also bedding Jorginho in. And for all the talk of how Chelsea need to look away from short-term solutions, we know that Roman and Co. are very results driven and not afraid to axe a manager that might have good long term ideas... and for Sarri to stay at Chelsea long term, he might have to look at short-term solutions to this problem.

If it were any other club, I'd say you've got to stick with Jorginho in the pivot and try to get Kante to be a proper box to box midfielder - I think he's got the skills required to be a huge success as a box to box midfielder. Even when he plays as a holding midfielder it seems like he's a box to box midfielder much of the time. But because it's Chelsea, I think what I'd do if I were Sarri is go with a double pivot and sacrifice some attacking flair for having a midfield that is just solid as fuck. I think that's good for Chelsea in the short term and good for Jorginho in England in the long term.

Rather Sarri sticks to his guns, and it looks like he has when he said he will not change Kante and Jorginho's position. People were critical of Pep after they were spanked by Everton 4-0 his first season. Did he give in? No. The team learned their roles better.  

The entire midfield is still learning their role. Sarri's recent presser indicated that Jorginho still presses with too much intensity, and that Kante is constantly out of position when defending. He needs to be closer with Jorginho. 

When the entire team isn't cohesive in our press, that is when we crumble. This is something that over time, can be learned.  

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I've never been a big fan of Jorginho to be honest. I've always preferred Zielinski over him. However, I can see some differences between them. Kante is purely a pivot and a work horse. Jorginho is more all rounded and I think they can work together. Both can play deep or purely in the middle so it will depend on the formation.

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Just now, Cicero said:

The entire midfield is still learning their role. Sarri's recent presser indicated that Jorginho still presses with too much intensity, and that Kante is constantly out of position when defending. He needs to be closer with Jorginho. 

When the entire team isn't cohesive in our press, that is when we crumble. This is something that over time, can be learned.  

Yeah and I'll tell you from experience, getting a good high pressing game going takes some time. And even once you get it going, a few more faces into the midfield can make that press far less effective.

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If Chelsea had had a shitter start to the season nobody would be complaining. They'd have accepted that the team were still adapting to the new manager's changes.

Having had a good start, the mob of less intelligent football fans have already decided after 10 games that Chelsea have already adapted to Sarri's approach therefore any issues with the team must be new problems and not simply the fact that the team is still adapting and will continue to do so for the majority of this season.

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You can make youtube highlights from anyone, Lallana looks like Pirlo on youtube. It's about consistent all round play, which I doubt anyone can suggest he's been a roaring success at. May well come though.

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2 minutes ago, The Artful Dodger said:

You can make youtube highlights from anyone, Lallana looks like Pirlo on youtube. It's about consistent all round play, which I doubt anyone can suggest he's been a roaring success at. May well come though.

Agreed, except I made it very clear that video is to oppose the ridiculous notion that all he does is sideways pass. 

 

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Jorginho had a decent start to the season but his performances dipped. Same really for most of the squad bar maybe one or two. 

Jorginho deserves criticism for his drop in performances but he receives more than others for a few reasons. The first is that the fans have turned on Sarri and his style of football and Jorginho is the poster boy for that style, Sarri's chief lieutenant if you like. The second because of this Kanté postition debate, he's supposedly taking Kanté's best position in a season where we've had defensive problems. The third reason is simply I feel his presence playing in midfield in a physical league. British football is about athleticism and power and I think he's rubbed a few up the wrong way for lacking something in these areas. The fans are used to or want to see a player with different characteristics playing there.

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2 hours ago, Cicero said:

Agreed, except I made it very clear that video is to oppose the ridiculous notion that all he does is sideways pass. 

 

Once that gets into the general public's mind, good luck getting them to change their minds. 

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The position that Jorginho plays in is arguably the hardest position to play forward in. If he drops to be between the centre backs, then the options in front of him will be marked and he'll have to thread a risky ball into midfield. 

If he gets the ball ahead of the centre backs, he'll normally have to turn and try to play forward in a position where he himself is marked.

If he messes up in either instance then then it's an instant counter-attack and very likely a goal. 

Even if you watch Pirlo, most passes are sideways down the wings or very short forward passes.

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Been outstanding as of late. A midfield three of Ruben, Jorginho, and Kante surely the future. 

 

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In his last few games, excellent and helping out the defense. If our bastards could finish a single chance he creates he would have a dozen assists. I agree with Cicero a midfield of Ruben, Kante and Jorginho is excellent. I would like to keep Ross as rotation plus a new midfielder or Mount if possible.

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On 21/04/2019 at 13:58, carefreeluke said:

Jorginho despite being inconsistent and he was very poor in the middle part of the season for example, perhaps doesn't get the credit he deserves. His form dipped but it dipped with the rest of the team and he gets harshly singled out when a lot of the other players' performances lowered as well. When we've played well this season, I'm thinking of one off performances, Jorginho has normally been one of the better performers in those games and perhaps doesn't get enough credit for some of the good stuff he's done this season. Don't get me wrong, he has deserved criticism this season and I'm not saying he's immune from that but he's also done a lot of good things as well. In our good moments this season, he's gone under the radar a bit and for that reason, I'd say he gets the unsung hero tag. One of those players that could well be more appreciated by the fanbase in the future. It took a while for Drogba to win over the Chelsea fans but then again he was more suited to the football in this league. Anyway, I still have faith in Jorginho.

If he didn't have this association with Sarri, he'd be more appreciated. Our fanbase has booed him in part because of that association as a lot of the fanbase (at least most of the match going one) are against Sarri. Criticism has been due this season at times with Jorginho but to boo him when he's either came off or on this season is a very poor showing from some of our fans. Would never do that with any player.

Secondly, I feel our fanbase have this approach of viewing football where a team needs to have a destroyer sitting in front of the defence and they look at things exclusively that way. The Chelsea fans have got used to having the likes of Makélélé, Kanté and Mikel sitting in front, Jorginho is the opposite. Hence as soon as we started having defensive problems, they immediately looked at that Jorginho.

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