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Motivation or Coaching?

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At the top level with elite players is more important for a manager to be a akilled motivator or tactician? We saw over the weekend what simple motivation did for Manchester United, and that gets me wondering if the elite players need less specialised coaching and just more motivation and confidence to play at their best. Do managers like Bielsa skip a beat because of their focus on tactics over man management? Is Ancellotti an elite man manager but a poor tactician? 

What does one tell a player like Messi to keep him interested and listening?We’ve heard stories of Messi’s odd social behaviour (texting instead of speaking and drinking a soft drink in front of Pep when told they were banned for instance). 

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In international football its more about motivation, controlling players and their egos more like working as a manager just overseeing things.

While in club football coaching is more prominent.

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35 minutes ago, José said:

Tacticians. 

Motivators like Klopp seem to always fall short.. Mainz, Dortmund, and soon to Liverpool are prove that the buddy buddy attitude is a poor approach. Great eye catching football through out the season but without any trophies to show for, how effective was it really? Mou might not be friends with everyone but at the end he delivers and that's what counts. 

Yet, your love Zidane won three straight CLs being a motivator.

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Tactics. Barcelona and Bayern Munich have showed us how high the ceiling is for a team where every player is in sync and knows their role. 

Real Madrid have shown you can win by throwing cash at the wall, but in spite of their historical CL efforts, I won't remember that team as being anywhere near as good as Peps Barca or Jupps Bayern.

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6 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Tactics. Barcelona and Bayern Munich have showed us how high the ceiling is for a team where every player is in sync and knows their role. 

Real Madrid have shown you can win by throwing cash at the wall, but in spite of their historical CL efforts, I won't remember that team as being anywhere near as good as Peps Barca or Jupps Bayern.

Going overboard on the tictocs can be bad as well. Just like Hilary Clinton was 'too smart' to win the Election, Biesla and Mourinho are 'too smart' too win a fucking trophy.

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Obviously no one is purely a motivator or tactician at the highest level. Even if some are more adept at one or the other than others are.

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8 hours ago, Spike said:

Going overboard on the tictocs can be bad as well. Just like Hilary Clinton was 'too smart' to win the Election, Biesla and Mourinho are 'too smart' too win a fucking trophy.

 

If top class footballers had ever worked a fucking day in their entitled fucking lives Bielsa would be a god tier coach who wins everything every year. Oh fucking no, I had to watch some fucking footage and listen to a guy talk about football, which is my fucking job. Meanwhile even in first world countries people are working 12 hour days to feed their dumb fucking povo kids. 

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There are many in depth examples that will lead us to one answer or another if we've studied certain coach's/managers careers through biographies, documentaries or recounts from people connected to said coach/manager.

I touched upon this in a post a couple of days back when assessing David Moyes' career and the reason he was hand picked to take over from Sir Akex Ferguson and move from Everton to Manchester United.

Sir Alex Ferguson's career is very well documented and we can all assume with good argument backing that his personal coaching credentials and dons were based on motivation in his particularly unique manner. We have so many anecdotes too with Fergie to suggest that his success was on the main a character based scenario.  Obviously top players in key positions and also having great tacticians as your assistants is a necessary requirement for any successful outfit.

As has been mentioned, we have Pep Guardiola too who is no mystery for anyone as his coaching career to date is almost documented minute by minute in diary books that are available, writers that have practically lived with the man from the moment he started coaching and have written up on it all and of course, documentaries and even a movie that's just been released.

When you observe them, you see that making players believe they can offer more is predominant.  But in Guardiola's case we do have the obvious scenario of his view on how the game should be played.  There is a trademark to the football his team's have reproduced on the field which is why for many people he has the attributed accolade given to him of having been one of the biggest reasons for the change in football over the past decade.

Bielsa has also been mentioned here... If anyone thinks he is just tactics, they're mistaken and haven't really looked into his career properly.  He is very much a man with an extremely strong character and he uses that personality as a weapon to get what he wants.  The problem with Marcelo Bielsa is that he becomes a massive weight for everyone that is in and around him and his way of doing things (which aren't premeditated and just come natural to him) aren't designed for the modern game and thus why he is more revered by other coaches around the world and football people than fans see in him or what he may have achieved.

 

This particular subject is one that I could talk about or write on all day and I feel as if I haven't even touched upon the membrane of the actual subject, but as can be appreciated, it's Christmas Day and I've already done too much.  I will return to this at a future date.

 

Well done @Spike mate. ;)

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Think a top manager has to be a good tactician first, but also has to be a good motivator. Most top managers are a good mixture of both, and i think that one without the other doesn't really give you elite management.

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Motivator above anything else. However the right coaching can be a correlation to motivation. 

Confidence really is the one factor that can make or break a player. Especially in the professional game. You see it all the time. All professionals have certain skills necessary to be a professional, however when they are low in confidence, you completely forget they have these skills in their locker. When they are high in confidence, they have the courage to perform these skills subconsciously. Fernando Torres being the prime example. It took Benitez to really allow him to be comfortable again. 

However, the right coaching can also allow these players to feel confident in the way they play, as the right tactics allows them to play their football they are most comfortable with. Pep and City. 

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6 minutes ago, José said:

Above a positive finals record? 

Mourinho at his best was a great motivator. Possibly the best in the game. 

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27 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Mourinho at his best was a great motivator. Possibly the best in the game. 

Without a doubt his methods were based as much on psychology (psychology is also a form of motivation seeing as motivation is a mind issue) as his tactics. But for me his mental preparation of his teams were based more on the “siege mentality” where he made his teams believe they were hated and that they were fighting against everyone in a very conspiratorial manner. 

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Is it too late for an entry for post of the year ?

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1 hour ago, José said:

Conspiratorial ? xD

That attitude and his tactics is what makes him great. The greatest day in football was watching Messi and the "best team of all time" Barcelona leave the pitch with their head down after getting schooled by Don Jose. 

Can you blame him for telling his players the truth? After watching the robberies vs PSG, Stamford bridge, and the Bernabéu only a fool would not assume it's uefalona vs the rest

Yep... Conspiratorial!  Do you want me to go through every single one of his post-match press conferences?

Maybe when Barcelona put 5 past Mourinho's Real or knocked them out of the semi-final of the Champions League with this characterisation of his post-match pres conference tells us something very funny.

 

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On ‎25‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 03:52, True Blue said:

Think a top manager has to be a good tactician first, but also has to be a good motivator. Most top managers are a good mixture of both, and i think that one without the other doesn't really give you elite management.

This

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2 hours ago, Cicero said:

Mourinho at his best was a great motivator. Possibly the best in the game. 

Mourinho's a better motivator than a tactician imo. Like how much of a tactical mastermind do you have to be to know that if you put as many players between the ball and the goal, it'll be harder for the other side to score? That's defensive football 101.

Not to say he hasn't had some games where he's demonstrated good tactics, because he certainly has. But his best sides (looking mostly at his first stint at Chelsea tbh) were well organised, could go forward better than almost all of Europe, and they had that siege mentality and confidence and swagger about them.

Has to be said, it does seem that when his expiration date is past, he also seems to be a demotivator for the players.

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1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Mourinho's a better motivator than a tactician imo. Like how much of a tactical mastermind do you have to be to know that if you put as many players between the ball and the goal, it'll be harder for the other side to score? That's defensive football 101.

Not to say he hasn't had some games where he's demonstrated good tactics, because he certainly has. But his best sides (looking mostly at his first stint at Chelsea tbh) were well organised, could go forward better than almost all of Europe, and they had that siege mentality and confidence and swagger about them.

Has to be said, it does seem that when his expiration date is past, he also seems to be a demotivator for the players.

Don't say that, Joselito will get annoyed.

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12 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Mourinho's a better motivator than a tactician imo. Like how much of a tactical mastermind do you have to be to know that if you put as many players between the ball and the goal, it'll be harder for the other side to score? That's defensive football 101.

 

The Terry/Carvalho/Makelele Diamond is honestly one of the most undervalued foundations in football. We conceded only 15 goals in the league in 2005, then went on to have the best defence in the league 3 years running.  Ronaldinho, as far as I remember, was the only player to really find a way through them, and even he later stated (bar Maldini) those three were the hardest opposition he's ever faced. 

Mourinho has a big part in why those three were as efficient as they were. 

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Neither, I think both have a place in the game.

Zidane is an awful tactician but an incredible motivator. The players respected him and while never being overly impressive, they were always able to bail him out. For me that wasn't exactly luck, but determination. 

Then there is Pep who is an incredible tactician. Easily the best on the planet. My only complaint is his continental cup record hasn't been good since leaving Barcelona. However he does assemble some of the most complete sides and takes advantage of his luxurious resources. Not much more you can ask for really.

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3 hours ago, Cicero said:

The Terry/Carvalho/Makelele Diamond is honestly one of the most undervalued foundations in football. We conceded only 15 goals in the league in 2005, then went on to have the best defence in the league 3 years running.  Ronaldinho, as far as I remember, was the only player to really find a way through them, and even he later stated (bar Maldini) those three were the hardest opposition he's ever faced. 

Mourinho has a big part in why those three were as efficient as they were. 

Oh yeah, like I said in that post - I think peak Mourinho was definitely great tactically. And I think peak Mourinho is exactly that first stint with Chelsea. And there's no doubt Mourinho's tactics are a part of what made his good sides good.

I do think superior tacticians are out there though. And that's not to say Mourinho is necessarily wank tactically, but I think one of he's stronger on fostering that "it's us against the world, so let's prove the world wrong" mentality when his teams are flowing at the best. But I don't think it exactly screams "tactical mastermind" when you see things like a fully parked bus set out against certain sides or when you really balance can't attacking or defending - it's either throwing bodies forward with abandonment at the back, or keeping things very tight at the back. I think better tacticians can have a more balanced overall approach, personally. Especially in modern football.

Again, I think you have to have both motivation and tactics to be a successful top level manager. If motivation and man-management weren't effective, you wouldn't see things like players downing tools, being disinterested, or forcing moves when they're unhappy. And tactics are obviously important - but you also need to be able to keep morale high and keep players determined and focused.

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23 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Oh yeah, like I said in that post - I think peak Mourinho was definitely great tactically. And I think peak Mourinho is exactly that first stint with Chelsea. And there's no doubt Mourinho's tactics are a part of what made his good sides good.

I do think superior tacticians are out there though. And that's not to say Mourinho is necessarily wank tactically, but I think one of he's stronger on fostering that "it's us against the world, so let's prove the world wrong" mentality when his teams are flowing at the best. But I don't think it exactly screams "tactical mastermind" when you see things like a fully parked bus set out against certain sides or when you really balance can't attacking or defending - it's either throwing bodies forward with abandonment at the back, or keeping things very tight at the back. I think better tacticians can have a more balanced overall approach, personally. Especially in modern football.

Again, I think you have to have both motivation and tactics to be a successful top level manager. If motivation and man-management weren't effective, you wouldn't see things like players downing tools, being disinterested, or forcing moves when they're unhappy. And tactics are obviously important - but you also need to be able to keep morale high and keep players determined and focused.

The be completely honest, he was fortunate with the players at his disposal that were left by Ranieri. It's no wonder he appreciates him so much xD

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3 minutes ago, Cicero said:

The be completely honest, he was fortunate with the players at his disposal that were left by Ranieri. It's no wonder he appreciates him so much xD

Ranieri made some great signings that came in after he was sacked. Cech, Robben, and Duff were his, weren't they? Mourinho deserves some credit for the likes of Carvalho (underrated player - one of the best defenders around at his peak) and Drogba (I still hate Drogba though).

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2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Ranieri made some great signings that came in after he was sacked. Cech, Robben, and Duff were his, weren't they? Mourinho deserves some credit for the likes of Carvalho (underrated player - one of the best defenders around at his peak) and Drogba (I still hate Drogba though).

And the Mak 

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Just now, Cicero said:

And the Mak 

Arguably the most important signing for that era of Chelsea.

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You don't make it to the top without being exceptional in both of these departments.

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On 26/12/2018 at 16:33, Cicero said:

Mourinho at his best was a great motivator. Possibly the best in the game. 

Many would argue fergie was better

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The two also feed into each other in a sense.

If the players are not motivated, then you can't count on them to implement even the best tactical plan in the world. 

But having a good tactical preparation can also be a motivator in itself - if you're going up against superior opposition, then the players want to be shown a vision of how they can beat a more talented team and not just hung out to dry. 

Its a cycle imo. Well-prepared players are confident players who are then better able to implement their manager's plans in practice. 

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Managers like Alex Ferguson and Brian Clough often went days without appearing on the pitch at the training grounds.

One man cannot be expected to have everything covered. With a whole staff working alongside them, they should be able to cover all the necessary bases. 

There is no successful manager or coaching staff who are purely one or the other and conversely there is no squad of players who are purely one way or the other.

Each player's in the squad will need a differing level of motivation or gameplanning knowledge to stimulate them before a match. Some players need only the basics, whereas some players need to mentally challenged to stop them from being bored or frustrated.

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