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Spike

Christchurch Massacre

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Read through this and a lot of good points made so far. 

The main thing that jumps out to me is that this thread is that it's a microcosm of the effect terrorism has on the majority of society. People pointing the finger at a hundred different places when it should only be pointed at the perpetrator, the result: polarisation.

Racist Australians this, bigot that, far left this, far right that.

Makes you wonder how much of the trend towards polarisation in the West is to do with the long term effects of events like these and all of the other religiously motivated genocide and terrorist attacks. In the absence of a visible enemy right in front of them people direct the hate inspired by these events at something else they don't like. 

It's concerning. The West has become a very angry place that's turning against itself which is exactly what the perpetrators of attacks like these have been aiming to achieve.

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38 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Read through this and a lot of good points made so far. 

The main thing that jumps out to me is that this thread is that it's a microcosm of the effect terrorism has on the majority of society. People pointing the finger at a hundred different places when it should only be pointed at the perpetrator, the result: polarisation.

Racist Australians this, bigot that, far left this, far right that.

Makes you wonder how much of the trend towards polarisation in the West is to do with the long term effects of events like these and all of the other religiously motivated genocide and terrorist attacks. In the absence of a visible enemy right in front of them people direct the hate inspired by these events at something else they don't like. 

It's concerning. The West has become a very angry place that's turning against itself which is exactly what the perpetrators of attacks like these have been aiming to achieve.

That’s literally the goal of ISIS. To push us into a holy war, and us being the entire western world.

Religious fundamentalists in America (so probably all over the west, just more privately in less religious countries) also want the same thing.

These idiots all think a holy war in the Middle East is needed for the apocalypse to come. So they want a big destructive war that basically ends humanity.

These people are dangerous lunatics all cut from the same cloth.

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21 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Read through this and a lot of good points made so far. 

The main thing that jumps out to me is that this thread is that it's a microcosm of the effect terrorism has on the majority of society. People pointing the finger at a hundred different places when it should only be pointed at the perpetrator, the result: polarisation.

Racist Australians this, bigot that, far left this, far right that.

Makes you wonder how much of the trend towards polarisation in the West is to do with the long term effects of events like these and all of the other religiously motivated genocide and terrorist attacks. In the absence of a visible enemy right in front of them people direct the hate inspired by these events at something else they don't like. 

It's concerning. The West has become a very angry place that's turning against itself which is exactly what the perpetrators of attacks like these have been aiming to achieve.

Islamic terrorists and White nationalist terrorists have the exact same goal - to create a narrative of muslim communities being basically incompatible with western society and of posing them as an existential threat to each other. Islamic fundamentalists pose the Crusader narrative of the West trying to destroy the Muslim world, and the white nationalists pose the great replacement narrative about birthrates and muslim immigration.

That's why it's important to identify and tackle the voices in the West that subscribe to that worldview - both from the Islamic fundamentalist side, and the "Western" side.Very few terrorists have original ideas - you can't make something from nothing. That's why we have laws against incitement, laws against harassment, laws against defamation, against perjury, against hate speech, against electoral fraud.

Because the fact that some people can screen out terrorist incitement doesn't mean it isn't dangerous to spread it.  Same way where some people having good immune systems doesn't mean we don't have food standards.

A person who accuses Muslims of being secret jihadis, and saying that France will be majority muslim by 2020 or whatever, is functionally the same as an Islamic hate preacher. They're just pushing the same shit with a different brand name 

They might be white, have a good education, and write in a major newspaper. They might be an American academic with best-selling books, but the practical impact of what they say is the same.  And it's time we wisened up to it.

Of course the individual is where the chain of causation ends, but no major problem has ever been solved by washing our hands of it and saying it's all just individuals. 

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22 minutes ago, Inverted said:

Islamic terrorists and White nationalist terrorists have the exact same goal - to create a narrative of muslim communities being basically incompatible with western society and of posing them as an existential threat to each other. Islamic fundamentalists pose the Crusader narrative of the West trying to destroy the Muslim world, and the white nationalists pose the great replacement narrative about birthrates and muslim immigration.

That's why it's important to identify and tackle the voices in the West that subscribe to that worldview - both from the Islamic fundamentalist side, and the "Western" side.Very few terrorists have original ideas - you can't make something from nothing. That's why we have laws against incitement, laws against harassment, laws against defamation, against perjury, against hate speech, against electoral fraud.

Because the fact that some people can screen out terrorist incitement doesn't mean it isn't dangerous to spread it.  Same way where some people having good immune systems doesn't mean we don't have food standards.

A person who accuses Muslims of being secret jihadis, and of saying that France will be majority muslim by 2020 or whatever, is functionally the same as an Islamic hate preacher. They're just pushing the same shit with a different brand name 

They might be white, have a good education, and write in a major newspaper. They might be an American academic with best-selling books, but the practical impact of what they say is the same.  And it's time we wisened up to it.

Of course the individual is where the chain of causation ends, but no major problem has ever been solved by washing our hands of it and saying it's all just individuals. 

You would be surprised that its a common belief among ' educated ' people anywhere Muslims form a sizable minority. That they will change the demographs etc  and its not just hate preachers its backed by the media and to some extent by states as well.  

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18 minutes ago, Azeem said:

You would be surprised that its a common belief among ' educated ' people anywhere Muslims form a sizable minority. That they will change the demographs etc  and its not just hate preachers its backed by the media and to some extent by states as well.  

And if you look at polling, populations of countries with Muslim minorities universally overestimate the size of those populations. I think a few years ago there was a poll where people in France, with a 6% Muslim population, thought the Muslim population was over 30%. The same thing happened in every other Western country to a lesser degree.

The media is complicit because ultimately there's far more money to be made by pandering to paranoia than in correcting it.

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5 hours ago, Inverted said:

And if you look at polling, populations of countries with Muslim minorities universally overestimate the size of those populations. I think a few years ago there was a poll where people in France, with a 6% Muslim population, thought the Muslim population was over 30%. The same thing happened in every other Western country to a lesser degree.

The media is complicit because ultimately there's far more money to be made by pandering to paranoia than in correcting it.

On a similar note, being a foreigner to America but consuming much American media growing up in Australia, I thought that Jews (under 2%) and Blacks (under 13%) had much larger populations. It just goes to show how easily these sort of abstractions can be twisted.

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25 minutes ago, Spike said:

On a similar note, being a foreigner to America but consuming much American media growing up in Australia, I thought that Jews (under 2%) and Blacks (under 13%) had much larger populations. It just goes to show how easily these sort of abstractions can be twisted.

 

5 hours ago, Inverted said:

And if you look at polling, populations of countries with Muslim minorities universally overestimate the size of those populations. I think a few years ago there was a poll where people in France, with a 6% Muslim population, thought the Muslim population was over 30%. The same thing happened in every other Western country to a lesser degree.

The media is complicit because ultimately there's far more money to be made by pandering to paranoia than in correcting it.

You’re both not factoring in the fact that cities or urban centres dominate culture and are much more likely to be ethnically diverse. 

Polls are frequently done in cities also

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