The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Dr. Gonzo]

12 minutes ago, 6666 said:

It's still struggling to have a normal relationship with its black Jewish population let alone its non-Jewish population. Things would be easier without right wing, fascist politicians.

Tbf, and I do hate the Israeli government and think the people there need to stop voting for fascist shitbags... the black Jewish population they want to deport aren't "ethnic Jews" like the Ethiopian Jews, illegally went to Israel, from Chicago I believe - and a lot of people think their religious views are... very culty. The more extreme members have suggested that you can't be "truly Jewish" if you aren't Black and have commit violent acts against other Jews, both in Israel and the US.

They're a weird group, tbh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hebrew_Israelites

Does being in a cult mean you don't deserve human rights, though? I think the answer to that is a pretty emphatic "no, all people deserve human rights." And it doesn't mean that all black Jews should be lumped in with the fringe extremists, tbh, whether or not they should be deported probably depends on a case by case basis. And I'm also not sure Israel deserve to be criticising anyone else for "illegal immigration"

[El Profesor]

32 minutes ago, 6666 said:

It's still struggling to have a normal relationship with its black Jewish population let alone its non-Jewish population. Things would be easier without right wing, fascist politicians.

 

Would it? I´m far from an expert in contemporary israeli politics so I don´t have a definitive answer.

Having said that, the fact that Golda Meir and Ben-Gurion were leftists make me somehat skeptical that a non-right-wing israeli PM would normalize the relationship with the palestinians. 

[UNIQUE]

22 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Tbf, and I do hate the Israeli government and think the people there need to stop voting for fascist shitbags... the black Jewish population they want to deport aren't "ethnic Jews" like the Ethiopian Jews, illegally went to Israel, from Chicago I believe - and a lot of people think their religious views are... very culty. The more extreme members have suggested that you can't be "truly Jewish" if you aren't Black and have commit violent acts against other Jews, both in Israel and the US.

They're a weird group, tbh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hebrew_Israelites

Does being in a cult mean you don't deserve human rights, though? I think the answer to that is a pretty emphatic "no, all people deserve human rights." And it doesn't mean that all black Jews should be lumped in with the fringe extremists, tbh, whether or not they should be deported probably depends on a case by case basis. And I'm also not sure Israel deserve to be criticising anyone else for "illegal immigration"

do you not think that people that dont respect human rights should not be given human rights. like do you give human rights to anyone that would deny human rights to others. i see many people from all kinds of religion wish death on others then say we deserve human rights. imo you need to give people rights if you want to receive them. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by UNIQUE

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, UNIQUE said:

do you not think that people that dont respect human rights should not be given human rights. like do you give human rights to anyone that would deny human rights to others. i see many people from all kinds of religion wish death on others then say we deserve human rights. imo you need to give people rights if you want to receive them. 

Everyone that’s a human deserves human rights. People should be judged by what they’ve done - so if you’re a mass murder or a paedo, you should be judged for that. But they still deserve basic human rights. They should face punishment for their crimes, absolutely.

But taking human rights away from people essentially strips them of their personhood in a sense, and it definitely signals that their lives are worth less than another persons.

That’s a dangerous and slippery slope to fuck around with. People dehumanising other people and taking basic human rights from them has typically led to genocide and similar atrocities in human history.

Do kids born into a cult, like possibly some of those Black Hebrew Israelites seeking asylum deserve losing their human rights? because some had kids (many came to Israel over a decade ago). I don’t think in a just world they lose a bit of their personhood just because their parents are alleged to have violated immigration law.

Similary, do kids born in squalor in Gaza deserve life in their open air concentration camp because they were born to Muslim Palestinian Arabs?

[UNIQUE]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Everyone that’s a human deserves human rights. People should be judged by what they’ve done - so if you’re a mass murder or a paedo, you should be judged for that. But they still deserve basic human rights. They should face punishment for their crimes, absolutely.

But taking human rights away from people essentially strips them of their personhood in a sense, and it definitely signals that their lives are worth less than another persons.

That’s a dangerous and slippery slope to fuck around with. People dehumanising other people and taking basic human rights from them has typically led to genocide and similar atrocities in human history.

Do kids born into a cult, like possibly some of those Black Hebrew Israelites seeking asylum deserve losing their human rights? because some had kids (many came to Israel over a decade ago). I don’t think in a just world they lose a bit of their personhood just because their parents are alleged to have violated immigration law.

Similary, do kids born in squalor in Gaza deserve life in their open air concentration camp because they were born to Muslim Palestinian Arabs?

no. but what im saying is if a person would deny another person human rights then they deserve the same rights that they show others. you cant piss and scream about human rights if you are not willing to give the same rights to others. bit off topic i know but i just wanted to make that point. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by UNIQUE

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, UNIQUE said:

no. but what im saying is if a person would deny another person human rights then they deserve the same rights that they show others. you cant piss and scream about human rights if you are not willing to give the same rights to others. bit off topic i know but i just wanted to make that point. 

Tbh that sort of thinking is how we’ve got situations like Gaza.

It’s pushed people to making broad generalisations about large groups of people and successfully pushing rhetoric that dehumanises the other side.

Then you’ve got both sides willfully targeting civilians and pointing the finger at the other saying “those subhuman bastards did it first” - or worse, because history’s shown when you take human rights away typically bad things happen.

If we wanted to get rid of serial human rights abusers that piss and moan about human rights violations, basically every head of state of every country needs to go - so that’d be a start.

But most humans are shit, so there’s probably no good solution other than treating every person as though they are a person.

[Dr. Gonzo]

17 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Israeli troops have entered Gaza...

The IDF spokesperson has walked back his statement where he said they were entering Gaza, saying they have not yet moved ground forces into Gaza.

Bombing/rocketing continuing from both sides, and it’s been confirmed at least 4 rockets were fired from Lebanon.

There have been loads of protests in Ramallah and Bethlehem, as well as more outbreaks of violence in Jewish/Arab mixed cities.

[Stan]

Al Jazeera media building destroyed 

Apparently they even gave an hour warning and everyone was able to evacuate. 

Terrible nonetheless. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

For a side that complains about Hamas targeting civilians, they do an awful lot of targeting civilians.

They’ll say Hamas are using people as human shields (well now they’ve been saying “meat shields” because they don’t want to use the word “human”) - but if you look at the size of Gaza and the population… I think it tells another story of the indiscriminate bombing campaign 

[MUFC]

 

[6666]

On 14/05/2021 at 01:30, UNIQUE said:

no. but what im saying is if a person would deny another person human rights then they deserve the same rights that they show others. you cant piss and scream about human rights if you are not willing to give the same rights to others. bit off topic i know but i just wanted to make that point. 

They whole idea of human rights is rights a human has regardless of who they are. That's how that works. It's the bare minimum. You also can't claim to be morally or ethically superior if you're looking for reasons to deny human rights. "Them denying human rights is wrong and I want to do that too" doesn't really stand up. Might close to straight up justifying torture. Even with Netanyahu, his government, and the IDF being a bunching murderous pricks, I wouldn't say they should be caught and denied human rights. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by 6666

[6666]

10 hours ago, Stan said:

Al Jazeera media building destroyed 

Apparently they even gave an hour warning and everyone was able to evacuate. 

Terrible nonetheless. 

There were examples of the IDF targeting journalists in the past as well. They know that their actions being reported on isn't good for their deluded hopes of wanting to be seen as the good guys defending themselves.

[Azeem]

This issue has now become globally partisan on the lines of rich powerful vs poor oppressed. Not an Arab vs Jew issue, the Gulf monarchies are silently supporting Israel backed by Yanks. People in West are taking out protests in millions. Never seen this change of narrative

[Inverted]

20 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

For a side that complains about Hamas targeting civilians, they do an awful lot of targeting civilians.

They’ll say Hamas are using people as human shields (well now they’ve been saying “meat shields” because they don’t want to use the word “human”) - but if you look at the size of Gaza and the population… I think it tells another story of the indiscriminate bombing campaign 

In effect it is Israel which uses the population of Gaza as a human shield. By blockading Gaza, they essentially force any resistance into a position where if they want to resist, they must do so within the confines of one of the most densely-populated places on earth. 

Even if they wanted to, there is no possibility to move and fight from somewhere which is a safe distance from civilians. This is a win-win for Israel since the outcome is either

1 - Nobody in Gaza wants to fight, out of fear of drawing Israeli attacks on a civilian area; or

2 - Strikes come from Gaza, and Israel can automatically absolve itself morally because the enemy are using "human shields" by the mere fact of existing in Gaza.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Inverted said:

In effect it is Israel which uses the population of Gaza as a human shield. By blockading Gaza, they essentially force any resistance into a position where if they want to resist, they must do so within the confines of one of the most densely-populated places on earth. 

Even if they wanted to, there is no possibility to move and fight from somewhere which is a safe distance from civilians. This is a win-win for Israel since the outcome is either

1 - Nobody in Gaza wants to fight, out of fear of drawing Israeli attacks on a civilian area; or

2 - Strikes come from Gaza, and Israel can automatically absolve itself morally because the enemy are using "human shields" by the mere fact of existing in Gaza.

I think it’s all a part of the Dahiya Doctrine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine?wprov=sfti1) - which is part of the IDFs states plan to target civilian infrastructure.

Shit like that is why I think Israel’s government is completely full of shit on the Palestinian issue.

But we can take it further, to demonstrate how full of shit they are by taking some of the online rhetoric we see and applying facts to them.

One big talking point is “We are at war with Hamas, not Palestinians - we have no problem with them. If Gaza got rid of Hamas, we would leave them alone.”

But then let’s take this recent incident: https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-2-palestinians-shot-by-idf-were-security-officers-not-terrorists/

The West Bank has NOTHING to do with Hamas. It’s governed by the PLO - which doesn’t even like Hamas and has recognised Israel’s right to exist since 1993. How are they treated?

1.) Still live in 24/7 military occupation where they have their homes and their land taken from them and the West Bank continues to get smaller and smaller.

2.) Still have 500+ military checkpoints in their own territory that can make any sort of travel anywhere take hours.

3.) Over 10 Palestinians killed there this week alone

So surely Palestinian-Israelis in Israel (not Gaza or the West Bank) as Israeli citizens have better treatment. How are they treated?

1.) 95% of hate crimes against Palestinians are not charged by Israeli police (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-police-fail-to-charge-offenders-in-95-of-reported-anti-palestinian-attacks-1.5447966)

2.) They are codified by law as second-class citizens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People

3.) They have widespread discrimination through the funding of their ethnically/religiously based discrimination of education: https://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/JILPfinal.pdf

What’s happening right now in Gaza isn’t about Hamas or terrorism. It’s about removing Palestinians from having land where they have self-determination & keeping them as permanent second class citizens.

And it’s made all the more clear when stuff like this happens: https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082 - Hamas is useful to Netanyahu, effective Palestinian leadership isn’t.

[Azeem]

U. S. vetoed another resolution condemning Israel. Food for thought, US of A has vetoed resolutions against Israel more than all other members have used their veto power put together. 

[Mel81x+]

https://kotaku.com/ign-staff-criticizes-managements-decision-to-pull-artic-1846910750

I only posted this here because it relates to whats going on between Israel and Palestine right now. I get that its censorship and editorial suppression but at the same time I read the IGN article and I think there was nothing wrong with it. Now, the only thing management could have really done was say something to the effect of "Please add support for Israel too". However, with what they did they've made it pretty clear which side of the "war" they are supporting even if they say shit like its an All people's issue. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, Mel81x said:

https://kotaku.com/ign-staff-criticizes-managements-decision-to-pull-artic-1846910750

I only posted this here because it relates to whats going on between Israel and Palestine right now. I get that its censorship and editorial suppression but at the same time I read the IGN article and I think there was nothing wrong with it. Now, the only thing management could have really done was say something to the effect of "Please add support for Israel too". However, with what they did they've made it pretty clear which side of the "war" they are supporting even if they say shit like its an All people's issue. 

I can understand the staff being pissed off, tbh. Especially in this era where more and more people in the west feel empowered to use whatever platform they have to make whatever "social justice" point they want to make. And I don't think what IGN's staff did... really had anything wrong with it. It wasn't anti-Semetic, it didn't call for rallying around Hamas, it called for providing humanitarian aid to Palestinians who are facing a severe amount of collateral damage in this conflict. So much civilian infrastructure has been destroyed and there's over a million people in Gaza - it will need to all be rebuilt for them to live "normally" again.

I don't even think they needed to say something to the effect of "Please add support for Israel too" - but they could have added a statement condemning Hamas (which should be pretty fucking easy for anyone to do, especially a Western media company that focuses on mostly gaming and film news) and the statement would have seemed much more "both sides-y" and balanced.

[MUFC]

 

[Tommy]

[Dr. Gonzo]

20 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Some good news coming from Israel & Palestine, finally!

Although it's a bit of a mixed reaction: with Hamas reportedly firing rockets even after the announcement of the ceasefire, a snap poll indicating that 75% of Israelis do not support a ceasefire and would like to see the attacks continue... and Netanyahu making claims about an Iranian drone flying over Israel (he didn't mention where though) which was shot down. 

I think the most disheartening thing is the news of how unpopular the ceasefire is and how so many Israelis believe the collective punishment of Gaza (which, imo, is inhumane) should continue. Hamas are scum and Israel has the right to defend itself - and I think they've done a good job defending themselves looking at the casualty count in this conflict - but both sides look to be targeting civilians and it's unacceptable from either side.

[Tommy]

Just give me a few hundred drones equipped with speakers and sent them flying over Israel and Palestine playing this song:

But seriously though. The civilian casualties and stories you hear and see about them are just depressing. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Just give me a few hundred drones equipped with speakers and sent them flying over Israel and Palestine playing this song:

But seriously though. The civilian casualties and stories you hear and see about them are just depressing. 

Hamas will shoot down the drones for playing Western music probably 

A big part of the issue is combating extremism - Palestinian extremism and Israeli extremism (which, I admit, is less extreme than say... Hamas... but also leads to stuff like those anti-Arab riots and lynchings. The people of Gaza have turned to Hamas, a group of dangerous nutjobs who don't actually care about ordinary Palestinians, out of desperation and failure to see change after Fatah governments were proven to be ineffective... and very corrupt.

And Hamas are a lot like the IRI, which ruined Iran - ask my mum or any family member about what happens when you let hardcore religious extremists take power in a country... and they'll tell you, with personal experience, that even after it's been realised the government doesn't care about ordinary people, is corrupt and steals the resources of their people, and is only interested in fighting it's ideological battles rather than improving the life of the people who live there... it's not easy to get rid of them. The best example of this is Iran's first President after the 1979 revolution - he was against the clergy's power-grab of the political apparatus. And, in the middle of his first fucking term, he had to smuggle himself out of the country because his chances of being killed for his political views went through the roof.

Hamas are cut from the same cloth as the IRI (they're an Iranian proxy, tbh) - stability and equitable treatment of Palestinians in these occupied territories will weaken their grasp over Gaza. Whereas, I think all of the recent bloodshed only serves to strengthen Hamas's grip on Gaza... which is pretty important for them because they've got an upcoming election (although, I have huge doubts as to how free/fair those elections will be). But they will paint their opposition as silent and weak in the face of Israeli oppression, whereas they can claim they were the only Palestinians in Gaza ready and willing to fight back.

I have no idea what to do about extremism on the Israeli side, though. It's a bit like the rise of nationalist extremists in the West - they're dangerous... but I don't really know how to stop the growth of that extremism. It's been a problem for quite a long time... considering the last PM Israel had that seemed genuinely interested in a lasting peace between their neighbors... was killed by a far-right Israeli nutjob. And since then, the PMs they've had have largely been more in line with the extremists of Israel than the more moderate Israelis.

Throughout human history, I think extreme religious zealotry typically ends up with horrific atrocities. So it's not really a "new problem" - but it's something that needs to be addressed for lasting peace to be achievable.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Pretty shit ceasefire: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/21/jubilation-in-gaza-as-ceasefire-takes-effect-palestine-israel-live

[Azeem]

Gasing people again in the Temple Mount. 

P. S Came across this on my feed. No-brainer, a thousand fucking years old city that was sacked and rebuild many times will have ever changing boundaries. This whole Temple movement, which probably is a major reason of these aggression on the Temple Mount, isn't even inline with Jewish religious records of where the thing actually was. 

https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-jerusalem-temple-mount-myth/id956664052