The Big Middle Eastern Thread

[Beelzebub]

 

[Stan]

There's a thread on Twitter somewhere of a British Ambassador staying put in the airport, helping approve and stamp interpreters' passports and other staff to enable them to return back legitimately. Fair play to him - could have easily just helped himself back and left people stranded but it's a heroic thing to do when everyone is fleeing in an instant and you choose to stay and help.

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, Stan said:

There's a thread on Twitter somewhere of a British Ambassador staying put in the airport, helping approve and stamp interpreters' passports and other staff to enable them to return back legitimately. Fair play to him - could have easily just helped himself back and left people stranded but it's a heroic thing to do when everyone is fleeing in an instant and you choose to stay and help.

Tbh it’s the least the ambassador should be doing.

The US and UK are most culpable for the massive refugee crisis this will cause… and they’ll both probably be taking in the fewest refugees. The people that worked with the US and UK are most likely to get targeted for retaliation by the Taliban. Just leaving them to fend for themselves sends a bad message for the next time we do anything like this.

[Waylander]

GB News reported that Mahssoud is looking to restart the Northern Alliance.

 

[Beelzebub]

45 minutes ago, Waylander said:

GB News reported that Mahssoud is looking to restart the Northern Alliance.

 

They can't hold out for long if this news is true.

[Beelzebub]

[El Profesor]

I've found a thread on Twitter regarding the Afghanistan Papers.

It gives some well needed perspective on how the regime backed by the US collapsed so quickly. 

The level of corruption and incompetence is hard to believe. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by El Profesor

[Inverted]

1 hour ago, Khan of TF365 said:

Lmao. The socialist government lasted about ten times as long as his regime did without foreign support - and against much more expensively equipped Mujahideen, as opposed to the rag-tag remnants of the Taliban that his state has capitulated to. 
 

Which one was the real puppet state?

[Beelzebub]

31 minutes ago, Inverted said:

Lmao. The socialist government lasted about ten times as long as his regime did without foreign support - and against much more expensively equipped Mujahideen, as opposed to the rag-tag remnants of the Taliban that his state has capitulated to. 
 

Which one was the real puppet state?

Soviet did had advantages like having direct geographical link with Afghanistan to support the government and from what I've seen from people comparing the two recently they did some actual development. US withdrawal is a lot more embarrassing.

But I'm no fan of the brand socialism seen in Afghanistan either.

[Beelzebub]

Update: Ghani has been refused to land in Tajikistan and he's now off to Oman. From there to US most likely

[Beelzebub]

@El Profesor Reports are Ghani left with helicopters full of cash lol

It's not just they were corrupt but in political sway they were no bodies before US backed them. Look at the other presidential candidate Abdullah he's still there & will possible be part of future government but US never backed him but choose Ghani who immediately left. 

[Inverted]

1 minute ago, Khan of TF365 said:

Soviet did had advantages like having direct geographical link with Afghanistan to support the government and from what I've seen from people comparing the two recently they did some actual development. US withdrawal is a lot more embarrassing.

But I'm no fan of the brand socialism seen in Afghanistan either.

I think the thing is that the Communists wanted to uproot and replace existing culture of Afghanistan, and develop it into a post-tribal, secular socialist state. Which everyone thought was a utopian fantasy. 

But the Americans thought you could just put a bunch of Northern Alliance guys in power and hold some elections, and the country would magically start acting like a liberal democracy. Without really addressing the underlying social structures. 

In a paradoxical way, the Communists were the realistic ones, because they were more ambitious. They understood that you cannot build a modern state on the existing foundations of Afghanistan.

Changing everything from the ground up is difficult, but it at least gives a small chance of success, whereas Western half-measures are doomed to fail. 

[El Profesor]

5 minutes ago, Khan of TF365 said:

@El Profesor Reports are Ghani left with helicopters full of cash lol

It's not just they were corrupt but in political sway they were no bodies before US backed them. Look at the other presidential candidate Abdullah he's still there & will possible be part of future government but US never backed him but choose Ghani who immediately left. 

 

This feels like a repeat of Iraq. 

Ahmed Chalabi was also a nobody in Iraq before 2003, right? 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Inverted said:

Which one was the real puppet state?

They both were, imo.

[El Profesor]

So guys, I made a list of books and podcasts (I love to make lists of books I want to read ) that help understand american intervention in Middle East. 

 

Some books: 

 

Overal History of Middle East

 

1) "Islam: A Short History", Karen Armstrong

2) "A Line in the Sand: The Anglo-French Struggle for the Middle East, 1914–1948", James Barr

3) "Lords of the Desert: The Battle Between the United States and Great Britain for Supremacy in the Modern Middle East", James Barr

4) "A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East", David Fromkin

5) "All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror", Stephen Kinzer

6) "Making the Arab World: Nasser, Qutb, and the Clash That Shaped the Middle East", Gerges Fawaz

 

 

Iraq

 

1) "Imperial Life in The Emerald City: Inside Iraq's Green Zone"; 

2) "The Man Who Pushed America to War: The Extraordinary Life, Adventures and Obsessions of Ahmad Chalabi", Aram Roston

3) "Saddam: King of Terror", Con Coughlin

4) "Inventing Iraq: The Failure of Nation-Building and a History Denied", Toby Dodge

5) "Red Zone: Five Bloody Years in Baghdad", Oliver Poole

6) "The Fall of Baghdad", Jon Lee Anderson

7) "The Iran-Iraq War", P. Razoux

  

 

Afghanistan

 

1) "Afghanistan: A Cultural and Political History", Thomas J. Barfield

2) "Afghanistan: A Military History from Alexander the Great to the War against the Taliban", Stephen Tanner

3) "The American War in Afghanistan: A History", Carter Malkasian 

4) "The Great Gamble: The Soviet War in Afghanistan", Gregory Feifer

5) "Long Goodbye: The Soviet Withdrawal from Afghanistan", Artemy  Kalinovsky

 

 

Podcasts

 "Blowback" - Season 1

"Conflicted" - Series of Episodes: Prophet´s Dilemma: The Sunni Shia Split 

"The Fault Line: Bush, Blair and Iraq" (Podcast)

"Conflicted" - Episode: Ghosts in the Mountain - The Soviet-Afghan War

[nudge+]

20 minutes ago, El Profesor said:

So guys, I made a list of books and podcasts (I love to make lists of books I want to read ) that help understand american intervention in Middle East. 

 

Some books: 

 

Overal History of Middle East

 

1) "Islam: A Short History", Karen Armstrong

2) "A Line in the Sand: The Anglo-French Struggle for the Middle East, 1914–1948", James Barr

3) "Lords of the Desert: The Battle Between the United States and Great Britain for Supremacy in the Modern Middle East", James Barr

4) "A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East", David Fromkin

5) "All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror", Stephen Kinzer

6) "Making the Arab World: Nasser, Qutb, and the Clash That Shaped the Middle East", Gerges Fawaz

 

 

Iraq

 

1) "Imperial Life in The Emerald City: Inside Iraq's Green Zone"; 

2) "The Man Who Pushed America to War: The Extraordinary Life, Adventures and Obsessions of Ahmad Chalabi", Aram Roston

3) "Saddam: King of Terror", Con Coughlin

4) "Inventing Iraq: The Failure of Nation-Building and a History Denied", Toby Dodge

5) "Red Zone: Five Bloody Years in Baghdad", Oliver Poole

6) "The Fall of Baghdad", Jon Lee Anderson

7) "The Iran-Iraq War", P. Razoux

  

 

Afghanistan

 

1) "Afghanistan: A Cultural and Political History", Thomas J. Barfield

2) "Afghanistan: A Military History from Alexander the Great to the War against the Taliban", Stephen Tanner

3) "The American War in Afghanistan: A History", Carter Malkasian 

4) "The Great Gamble: The Soviet War in Afghanistan", Gregory Feifer

5) "Long Goodbye: The Soviet Withdrawal from Afghanistan", Artemy  Kalinovsky

 

 

Podcasts

 "Blowback" - Season 1

"Conflicted" - Series of Episodes: Prophet´s Dilemma: The Sunni Shia Split 

"The Fault Line: Bush, Blair and Iraq" (Podcast)

"Conflicted" - Episode: Ghosts in the Mountain - The Soviet-Afghan War

Brilliant post.

I'd add these two:

"No Good Men Among the Living: America, the Taliban, and the War through Afghan Eyes" by Amand Gopal 

"Games Without Rules: The Often Interrupted History of Afghanistan" by Tamim Ansary

[Tommy]

So an US Cargo plane wanted to take off to Qatar when many Afghans entered the plane. In the end there were 640 civilians, and the Americans didn't want to kick anyone out. So they just took off like this. 

[Cicero]

Footage of people falling off the aircraft mid flight. Awful, awful scenes. 

[Stan]

33 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Footage of people falling off the aircraft mid flight. Awful, awful scenes. 

Seen that as well. But at the time they wasn't aware that's what it was. Horrible to watch

 

[Beelzebub]

[Beelzebub]

Right now the push should be for including an ethnically diverse government. There is no other way for stability.

I seriously think like Taliban started an insurgency being ousted from power. Other groups also might start against them if they are rigid in their approach.

China Russia posturing they are ready to accept the new rule.

[Beelzebub]

[Stan]

 

 

 

[Honey Honey]

Biden has shown himself to be an irresponsible cop out with the sorts of excuses he's coming out with.

[MUFC]

A Taliban spokesman contacted The BBC today to confirm they are now in control of Bradford, Oldham, Luton and Rochdale and expect to be running London by the weekend.