Burning Gold 599 Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 38 minutes ago, SirBalon said: Let's not forget Klopp went through a period where he was being questioned and it all looked pear shaped, but the club kept faith in him and now they have a strange homebrewed breed of football that isn't easy to defeat at all. This just isn't true. We've made clear, tangible, and substantial progress every year under Klopp. There were some weird things in the first few months like giving Mignolet a 5 year contract extension, and going to the fans after a 2-2 draw against West Brom, but anyone seriously questioning Klopp outside of that has either been paying very little attention to the club or a moron. Often both. As for which is the more impressive achievement, it depends how you look at it. Benitez, in his first season, took a bang average team, with one genuine superstar, to the pinnacle of club football, beating some exceptional sides on the way. Serie A Champions* Juventus, runaway Premier League Champions Chelsea, and a disgustingly stacked AC Milan team. Klopp, in less than 4 years, has brought players to the next level and invested sensibly in a targeted fashion to build one of the best sides in Europe. Seen in that light, Klopp's achievement is far more impressive, but in the context of that season's competition in isolation, it's Benitez by a mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,349 Posted June 2, 2019 Administrator Share Posted June 2, 2019 Benitez. That squad matched up with this Klopp one and Benitez' feat seems much more of a grandiose achievement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted June 2, 2019 Author Share Posted June 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Burning Gold said: This just isn't true. We've made clear, tangible, and substantial progress every year under Klopp. There were some weird things in the first few months like giving Mignolet a 5 year contract extension, and going to the fans after a 2-2 draw against West Brom, but anyone seriously questioning Klopp outside of that has either been paying very little attention to the club or a moron. Often both. As for which is the more impressive achievement, it depends how you look at it. Benitez, in his first season, took a bang average team, with one genuine superstar, to the pinnacle of club football, beating some exceptional sides on the way. Serie A Champions* Juventus, runaway Premier League Champions Chelsea, and a disgustingly stacked AC Milan team. Klopp, in less than 4 years, has brought players to the next level and invested sensibly in a targeted fashion to build one of the best sides in Europe. Seen in that light, Klopp's achievement is far more impressive, but in the context of that season's competition in isolation, it's Benitez by a mile. It wasn't the first few months, it was the first season. You also bought Karius! But I don't disagree with any of that anyway as you can see in all my posts especially the previous one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning Gold 599 Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 10 minutes ago, SirBalon said: It wasn't the first few months, it was the first season. You also bought Karius! But I don't disagree with any of that anyway as you can see in all my posts especially the previous one. The first season when we went to two cup finals? We did finish 8th, but "pear shaped" is extremely harsh. It was little more than a case of him failing to exceed expectations for me, because our squad was pretty poor and we were focussing on other priorities (the aforementioned cup finals). In any case, he wasn't under any kind of pressure because he hadn't even had a full season, or a transfer window. Karius, fine, wasn't great, but I don't think he was "bad" signing considering he was only £4m. He obviously wasn't as good as we were hoping, but sometimes you get what you pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Profesor 1,457 Posted June 2, 2019 Share Posted June 2, 2019 Can I say both? I mean, the 2005 title was more impressive. Rafa´s team managed to eliminate the best team in the world back then, Juventus, that unfortunately became underrated because of Catenaciio and beat an all-time great Milan side. On the other hand, the overall body of work of Klopp is more impressive. It´s easy to forget how disfunctional Liverpool was in 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted June 2, 2019 Author Share Posted June 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Burning Gold said: The first season when we went to two cup finals? We did finish 8th, but "pear shaped" is extremely harsh. It was little more than a case of him failing to exceed expectations for me, because our squad was pretty poor and we were focussing on other priorities (the aforementioned cup finals). In any case, he wasn't under any kind of pressure because he hadn't even had a full season, or a transfer window. Karius, fine, wasn't great, but I don't think he was "bad" signing considering he was only £4m. He obviously wasn't as good as we were hoping, but sometimes you get what you pay for. I'm not crticising his first season, I'm saying that the sensations weren't those that many were expecting fuelled mainly by the media and the press. A similar issue Maurizio Sarri has had to cope with this season and there have been others in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,349 Posted June 3, 2019 Administrator Share Posted June 3, 2019 One of the best things about Klopp for Liverpool is that he was able to strengthen the weaknesses in the team with the right players. Alisson and Van Dijk have been seriously good transfer business given the impact they've had individually and collectively. There's no way Liverpool get 97 points if they aren't in the side or get to a CL final of both not in the side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God is Haaland 618 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Voted Klopp and I could offer a detailed explanation on how his tactical solutions and philosophy enable him to break the up-an-down-cycle clubs without extraordinary financial power are usually trapped inside and achieve success on the pitch as well as long-term economical success, but let's just say I did so because it drives @José nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 1 minute ago, BartraPique1932 said: Voted Klopp and I could offer a detailed explanation on how his tactical solutions and philosophy enable him to break the up-an-down-cycle clubs without extraordinary financial power are usually trapped inside and achieve success on the pitch as well as long-term economical success, but let's just say I did so because it drives @José nuts. Klopp has definitely proven at Liverpool (which was no easy task) everything that you have written. Fans talk about the hope of signing a coach that thinks longterm via a real project and has the capability of delivering on his ethos. Klopp does this, he does it with aplomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverted 1,776 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 The thing about managers who demand time to create a project, is that it's kind of a leap of faith since most of the time you're being asked to give enormous patience to someone who maybe hasn't shown enough in the recent past to justify so much of a commitment. Klopp has built 3 extremely successful long-term projects in his career, back to back to back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero 5,265 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 Allison TAA--------Hyypia---VVD------Robertson Mascherano----Alonso Gerrard Salah---------------------------Mane Torres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry 1,437 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 It's weird how so many people seem to be using the definition of biggest achievement meaning who was the shittiest team to win it... In isolation for a game that may be true but you need to consider it's thanks to Klopp that nobody is that surprised we won. Because he turned then into a make contender. Rafa didn't even get a chance to do that by 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted June 3, 2019 Author Share Posted June 3, 2019 41 minutes ago, Cicero said: Allison TAA--------Hyypia---VVD------Robertson Mascherano----Alonso Gerrard Salah---------------------------Mane Torres Xabi Alonso, Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres in his Liverpool spell were tremendous players that would’ve made this side for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,159 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 21 hours ago, Smiley Culture said: I never said it was a one-off game for Klopp, though. Klopp led a Liverpool side through to the Final, beating Barcelona (won their league), Bayern Munich (won their league) and Porto on their way, while getting to 97 points in the Premier League, a total that would win the league more years than not, and keeping the title race going to the final day. Benitez’s side struggled through a group stage, beat Leverkusen, Juventus and Chelsea, while finishing 37 points behind the league winners in 04-05. To compete in the manner they have this season is a bigger feat than never being in a title race and putting all their eggs in one basket. I think we struggled to get out of the group stages in this CL campaign as well. Napoli got pretty unfortunate when we beat them and knocked them out. And that Juve (won their league that year) and Chelsea (won the league that year) sides we got passed to make it to Istanbul and play an incredible AC Milan sides were also incredible - and I'd argue that Leverkusen were a better side than the Porto we faced. Considering that Bayern Munich were pretty toothless in all honesty, I'm not sure which cup run was more impressive. It's pretty obvious which final was more impressive. Asking me to pick between two of my favourite Liverpool managers is tough. But if we're just basing it off CL campaigns, I'd probably have to pick Rafa's 2005 campaign. But as things stand right now and with the debate the way it is, I'm not casting a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,159 Posted June 3, 2019 Share Posted June 3, 2019 10 hours ago, Stan said: One of the best things about Klopp for Liverpool is that he was able to strengthen the weaknesses in the team with the right players. Alisson and Van Dijk have been seriously good transfer business given the impact they've had individually and collectively. There's no way Liverpool get 97 points if they aren't in the side or get to a CL final of both not in the side. That's not just Klopp by himself. That's Klopp working with Michael Edwards. If Rafa was working with Michael Edwards instead of Rick fucking Parry, I think we'd have seen more signings that ended up being as good as the ones Rafa personally identified before they signed for us like Alonso, Mascherano, Torres, etc. The Robbie Keane signing would never have happened with Michael Edwards, Rafa asks for a striker... Parry asks "how about Robbie Keane?" Rafa says, "No thanks, let's consider other options" and Parry goes out and signs Robbie Keane. Klopp and Edwards are reading from the same page. Rafa was a few chapters ahead of Parry most of the time. One area where Klopp's got Rafa beat though is that Klopp is willing to hold out and not sign an alternate to the "right" player until another "right player" is available... or in the case of Virgil Van Djik and Alisson, until Mr. Right's club can be persuaded with enough money to let us take the fucker. Part of that is also from another area Klopp's got Rafa beat - in man management. Rafa was cold and calculated and wants his teams to be machines, whereas with Klopp you can see he gets the players to love him and fully buy into his philosophy. And I think players like Ryan Babel probably would have done better if they were treated more like human beings rather than just cogs in a machine - not everyone is going to have the same mental toughness as Hyypia, Carragher, Gerrard or Alonso. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honey Honey 3,767 Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 16 hours ago, Cicero said: Allison TAA--------Hyypia---VVD------Robertson Mascherano----Alonso Gerrard Salah---------------------------Mane Torres Mascherano and Torres joined Liverpool 2 years after they won the Champions League. You'll have to switch Torres out for Florent Sinama Pongolle or Neil Mellor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry 1,437 Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 3 hours ago, Harvsky said: Mascherano and Torres joined Liverpool 2 years after they won the Champions League. You'll have to switch Torres out for Florent Sinama Pongolle or Neil Mellor I think it's escalated into a comparison of the l Liverpool managers contributions more broadly and the sides they both crafted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gonzo 8,159 Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 If the question is which Liverpool CL side was better... obviously Klopp's. This Liverpool side would have demolished the 2005 one, which would basically just be relying on Steven Gerrard to inspire some sort of miraculous comeback against a side way better than them. Which is actually exactly what happened in Istanbul. So 2005, because of peak Stevie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyyyyyy 0 Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 On 02/06/2019 at 19:17, SirBalon said: Who's was the bigger feat taking everything into consideration? Klopp's was surely more expected. Debate away... Klopp is a very nice man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.