Is Van Dijk Really That Great?

[SirBalon]

14 minutes ago, Panna King said:

For Ajax to reach the Europa Cup final and 2 years later a minute of reaching the Final of the Champions League in this day of age of football with their set up is remarkable. The thing is people's views of only big league players are only successful and should only be rewarded due to the marketing that goes on with leagues such as the premier league to make it the best. 

How many Europa Leagues have Sevilla won in the last decade?

The reason I cite them is because they have almost double the budget of Ajax and everytime they tried their luck in the Champions League they got nowhere near to achieving what Ajax have and that's with a 70% sigining policy of very good players.

[Panna King]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

How many Europa Leagues have Sevilla won in the last decade?

The reason I cite them is because they have almost doubke the budget of Ajax and everytime they tried their luck in the Champions League they got nowhere near to achieving what Ajax have and that's with a 70% sigining policy of very good players.

The coach of Ajax needs to take huge credit but the stars of the team are the spine of the team de Jong and de Ligt.

[SirBalon]

24 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Nobody is denying the remarkable achievements of Ajax mate but sadly that isn't the topic at hand.

The only point refuted from your original post was that De Ligt has been the player this season over VVD, which is nonsense.

Not taking anything away from the potential that De Ligt possesses but hes far from VVD's level currently. Nor am I taking anything away from Ajax' achievements in general. 

I will use the reverse on you mate... Van Dijk has been tremendous and it's more than noticeable (along with you keeper upgrade mind you) and I'm not taking anything away from him. What I'm saying is that relativity HAS to be taken into account and it's more than important although it won't be used in any analytical sense when it comes to the Ballon d'Or Award because factors outside football on the field of play are also used for this like the status of the club and the marketability of the whole package. The football authorities themselves benefit from all of this in various ways.

Those kids at Ajax achieved what they achieved (Dutch league and cup double plus the Champions League Semi-Final 30 seconds from reaching the final itself) because of a couple of very very special players plus a few other very good players indeed. I can go into the coaching too but even there one coach is up against a lower grade of competition most of the year compared to the work the other has to go through and that also counts. I return to "RELATIVITY".

[LFCMadLad]

2 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I will use the reverse on you mate... Van Dijk has been tremendous and it's more than noticeable (along with you keeper upgrade mind you) and I'm not taking anything away from him. What I'm saying is that relativity HAS to be taken into account and it's more than important although it won't be used in any analytical sense when it comes to the Ballon d'Or Award because factors outside football on the field of play are also used for this like the status of the club and the marketability of the whole package. The football themselves benefit from all of this in various ways.

Those kids at Ajax achieved what they achieved (Dutch league and cup double plus the Champions League Semi-Final 30 seconds frok reaching the final itself) because of a coupke of very very special players plus a few other very good players indeed. I can go into the coaching too but even there one coach is up against a lower grade of competition most of the year compared to the work the other has to go through and that also counts. I return to "RELATIVITY".

So because VVD is favourite to win it, we now have to take the full package into consideration?

Funny that because relativity wasnt brought up when Messi was winning it left, right and centre?

Look, we can take anything you want into consideration but the fact remains that over the course of the season VVD has been streets ahead of De Ligt or any other defender for that matter. Would you agree?

As I said , the Ballon d'or is a PERSONAL award, not a team achievement award. 

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

So because VVD is favourite to win it, we now have to take the full package into consideration?

Funny that because relativity wasnt brought up when Messi was winning it left, right and centre?

Look, we can take anything you want into consideration but the fact remains that over the course of the season VVD has been streets ahead of De Ligt or any other defender for that matter. Would you agree?

As I said , the Ballon d'or is a PERSONAL award, not a team achievement award. 

Relativity should've been brought into some of the Ballon d'Or awards Messi won and I've always championed that funnily enough and also, I don't know who has made VVD favourite because he isn't mate, it's actually the one you're questioning and I would say it's correct too.

I'm not of the belief that Liverpool achieved their 90+ league points plus the Champions League just because of Van Dijk.

[LFCMadLad]

3 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Relativity should've been brought into some of the Ballon d'Or awards Messi won and I've always championed that funnily enough and also, I don't know who has made VVD favourite because he isn't mate, it's actually the one you're questioning and I would say it's correct too.

I'm not of the belief that Liverpool achieved their 90+ league points plus the Champions League just because of Van Dijk.

The bookies have made VVD favourites mate.

Look, I dont know where else to go with this discussion because you aren't taking the rules of the award into consideration, instead making up your own. If you think the whole criteria of the award should be changed to accommodate a teams achievements then good for you pal, but as things stand the ballon d'or is a personal award, given to the best players over a season. 

VVD is currently streets ahead of De Ligt currently and is the reason hes a favourite to win. 

I'll say again though, De Ligt (although shakey now at times) will become a top top CB, taking nothing away from him at all. 

[SirBalon]

Let me also add that De Ligt beat Mbappé to the Golden Boy award... People need to take note of what that actually means in the whole picture. Matthijs de Ligt doesn't even come close to the marketing potential that Kylian Mbappé has and what a club with everything surrounding it that Paris Saint-Germain boosts you with right now.

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, LFCMadLad said:

The bookies have made VVD favourites mate.

Look, I dont know where else to go with this discussion because you aren't taking the rules of the award into consideration, instead making up your own. If you think the whole criteria of the award should be changed to accommodate a teams achievements then good for you pal, but as things stand the ballon d'or is a personal award, given to the best players over a season. 

VVD is currently streets ahead of De Ligt currently and is the reason hes a favourite to win. 

I'll say again though, De Ligt (although shakey now at times) will become a top top CB, taking nothing away from him at all. 

Then bet on Messi and win yourself a few bucks. He's gonna win it my friend.

[LFCMadLad]

5 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Then bet on Messi and win yourself a few bucks. He's gonna win it my friend.

What about the RELATIVITY though  pal? 

I mean, Barcelona with all their stars got comprehensively dumped out of Europe by a Liverpool team on their way to a second consecutive CL Final! In fact I think Messi is still in VVD's pocket from the game at Anfield!!

RELATIVITY my friend, RELATIVITY 

[Harry]

2 hours ago, Panna King said:

 , If Ajax were in the Premier League they would have a bigger budget and would be able to attract big names unlike in the Dutch league they can only really attract such players or bring through their own like they are.  As if Man City and Liverpool would be in the Eredivisie they wouldn't have the team they have now, so you can't even compare that scenario.

 

If Ajax played in the Premier league FC Barcelona would not be what they are today. Everything would be hugely different.

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

This is why I kept on using the word "relative" in my argument which either wasn't understood or ignored. For Ajax to reach a semi-final of the Champions League, to knock-out the greatest.

Let me highlight some of their results this season with what can be described as a bunch of kids at a club dwarfed by those they competed against...

• Bayern 1-1 Ajax
• Ajax 1-0 Benfica
• Benfica 1-1 Ajax
• Ajax 3-3 Bayern
• Real Madrid 1-4 Ajax
• Ajax 1-1 Juventus
• Juventus 1-2 Ajax
• Spurs 0-1 Ajax

Many of those players are teenagers and that has to be taken into account. Imgine they were playing for some of those bigger sides!

This is true mate but this is an argument comparing two players. And you can credit Liverpool as an established team with much greater players but don't forget the massive massive shift in our defensive fortunes and the time that change arrived. January 2018. Playing at CB this year with every other Central defender seeing significant time out of the squad with injury. Playing at times with midfielders alongside, in a team with incredibly attacking minded full backs he was the ever present. And the entire campaign was built foremost on defensive discipline.

Ajax did some incredible things here and they punched about their weight more than we did but that's not a relevant point to this discussion of single players.

[SirBalon]

6 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

What about the RELATIVITY though  pal? 

I mean, Barcelona with all their stars got comprehensively dumped out of Europe by a Liverpool team on their way to a second consecutive CL Final! In fact I think Messi is still in VVD's pocket from the game at Anfield!!

RELATIVITY my friend, RELATIVITY 

Hahaha... That "pocket" is also relative to many factors of chance, luck and execution my friend. 2 goals against VVVD (if you like although I don't like to use one player as a criticism of a team affair one way or another) and the lack of that chance and execution (call it luck) in the return leg where he should've buried one chance that would've drawn a whole diffrent story to all of this and due TO ONE GAME Van Dijk's valuation for the Ballon d'Or would've been dismantled? Really! Do you het where I've just gone?

[LFCMadLad]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

Hahaha... That "pocket" is also relative to many factors of chance, luck and execution my friend. 2 goals against VVVD (if you like although I don't like to use one player as a criticism of a team affair one way or another) and the lack of that chance and execution (call it luck) in the return leg where he should've buried one chance that would've drawn a whole diffrent story to all of this and due TO ONE GAME Van Dijk's valuation for the Ballon d'Or would've been dismantled? Really! Do you het where I've just gone?

Not really because if the score line had reflected the game at the Camp Nou, Barcelona would have been dead and buried by half time at Anfield. 

Cant actually believe that you think De Ligt has been better than VVD this season I honestly cant 

[SirBalon]

5 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

Not really because if the score line had reflected the game at the Camp Nou, Barcelona would have been dead and buried by half time at Anfield. 

Cant actually believe that you think De Ligt has been better than VVD this season I honestly cant 

Exactly mate... You’ve fallen further into my way of thinking. I already said wht I thought of the result at the Camp Nou and how unjust it was. It was due to one factor in execution which was Lionel Messi (one of the two goals has just won European goal of the season).

Yet, tell me what Van Dijk would be able to hang on to due to ONE game had Messi buried that first half chance at Anfield? Would that have been fair? Because I tell you one thing, I would’ve been championing Van Dijk’s cause in that event.

For as well as Liverpool played in the first leg at the Camp Nou, Messi walked into the net with the ball from a Suárez cross bar volley. (Let’s forget the free kick because that’s divinity from a celestial power).

[LFCMadLad]

15 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Exactly mate... You’ve fallen further into my way of thinking. I already said wht I thought of the result at the Camp Nou and how unjust it was. It was due to one factor in execution which was Lionel Messi (one of the two goals has just won European goal of the season).

Yet, tell me what Van Dijk would be able to hang on to due to ONE game had Messi buried that first half chance at Anfield? Would that have been fair? Because I tell you one thing, I would’ve been championing Van Dijk’s cause in that event.

For as well as Liverpool played in the first leg at the Camp Nou, Messi walked into the net with the ball from a Suárez cross bar volley. (Let’s forget the free kick because that’s divinity from a celestial power).

I give up, you just swing one way then the other to suit 

I'm guessing you are the only person living on gods green earth that thinks De Ligt has been better than VVD this season, honestly pal. 

God knows what you'll be like when we win it again next season 

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, LFCMadLad said:

I give up, you just swing one way then the other to suit 

I'm guessing you are the only person living on gods green earth that thinks De Ligt has been better than VVD this season, honestly pal. 

I’m fair mate. 

If I employ a tramp off the street and he provides me with 10% of the productivity a university graduate does at work because I had a theory... Then I will sack the graduate and bring in the tramp even if I have to house him and feed him for a number of months.

 

 

Disclaimer...

De Ligt is not a tramp and Van Dijk isn’t a privileged spoon fed performer.

 

Anecdote...

I actually did this and I feel I have won my place within the potential existence of a celestial heaven. I consider all the god given factors mate.

[LFCMike]

Fucking hell, what a shitshow

[Harry]

I am truly lost in this thread

[Panna King]

Odds for Ballon d'OR

 

Virgil Van Dijk 2.05 1.73 Lionel Messi 2.20 1.70 Mohamed Salah 21.00 16.00 Cristiano Ronaldo 21.00 17.00 Sadio Mané 26.00 16.00 Raheem Sterling 26.00 21.00 Alisson 31.00 31.00 Antoine Griezmann 34.00 21.00 Harry Kane 34.00 31.00 Hugo Lloris 34.00 34.00 Sergio Agüero 34.00 34.00 Silva, Bernardo 34.00 34.00 Eden Hazard 41.00 31.00 Neymar 41.00 34.00 Kylian Mbappé 51.00 18.00 Alexandre Lacazette 51.00 51.00 Christian Eriksen 51.00 51.00 Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang 51.00 51.00 Alisson Becker 67.00 67.00 David Silva 67.00 67.00 Luis Suárez 67.00 67.00 Robert Lewandowski 81.00 51.00 Frenkie De Jong 81.00 81.00 Hakim Ziyech 81.00 81.00 Jadon Sancho 81.00 81.00 Krzysztof Piatek 81.00 81.00 Matthijs De Ligt 81.00 81.00 Memphis Depay 81.00 81.00 Leroy Sané 101.00 67.00 Bernardo Silva 101.00 101.00 Gareth Bale 101.00 101.00 James Rodríguez 101.00 101.00 Luka Modric 101.00 101.00 Paul Pogba 101.00 101.00 Paulo Dybala 101.00 101.00 Raphaël Varane 101.00 101.00 Sergio Ramos 101.00 101.00 Vinicius Junior 101.00 101.00 João Félix 121.00 121.00 Zlatan Ibrahimovic 121.00 121.00 Carlos Vela 151.00 151.00 Christian Pulisic 151.00 151.00 Duván Esteban Zapata 151.00 151.00 Nicolas Pépé 151.00 151.00

[SirBalon]

11 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

Fucking hell, what a shitshow

Don’t be so judgmental mate...

I absolutely adore debating with @LFCMadLad and I have to make a confession because sometimes I will use anything to keep it going. When he’s in the mood he will give you plenty of food for thought. 

[Harry]

19 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

If I employ a tramp off the street and he provides me with 10% of the productivity a university graduate does at work because I had a theory... Then I will sack the graduate and bring in the tramp even if I have to house him and feed him for a number of months.

I fucking love this post. A true Balon random anecdote mic drop moment!

I'm seriously thinking I might use this in a meeting at work tomorrow. Lay it down straight out of nowhere and then walk out. Gold.

[Panna King]

But de Ligt was better than Van Dijk when he was 19 actually he is on a different planet to him regarding his earlier career......

 

Even for the national team

Van Dijk 27 years old only has 28 caps and 4 goals.

de Ligt 19 Years old 17 caps and 2 goals.

[Cicero]

Reading SirBalon trying to dig himself out of the hole he's made gave me an aneurysm. 

[SirBalon]

18 minutes ago, Panna King said:

But de Ligt was better than Van Dijk when he was 19 actually he is on a different planet to him regarding his earlier career......

 

Even for the national team

Van Dijk 27 years old only has 28 caps and 4 goals.

de Ligt 19 Years old 17 caps and 2 goals.

 

16 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Reading SirBalon trying to dig himself out of the hole he's made gave me an aneurysm. 

I've just managed to flush out my enema. 

[LFCMadLad]

48 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Don’t be so judgmental mate...

I absolutely adore debating with @LFCMadLad and I have to make a confession because sometimes I will use anything to keep it going. When he’s in the mood he will give you plenty of food for thought. 

So you troll me, is that what you're saying my friend? 

Disgusting 

[LFCMadLad]

22 minutes ago, Panna King said:

But de Ligt was better than Van Dijk when he was 19 

Well that's it then, hand the ballon d'or to De Ligt emedietely