Scotland and Independence

[Bluebird Hewitt]

West Wales is very generic in that pic and I'm sure that the surrounding valleys are worse off as well. 

I always had Cornwall as the opposite as well. 

[Inverted]

20 minutes ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

West Wales is very generic in that pic and I'm sure that the surrounding valleys are worse off as well. 

I always had Cornwall as the opposite as well. 

Oddly enough I thought the same about Cornwall for ages. 

I think it's the fact it's in the South and quite popular for holidays makes you think it's just like a Devon or a Dorset. 

[Honey Honey]

Your instincts might not be wrong. Quality of life is probably better in Cornwall than inner London which came 1st. It's an old defunct chart that keeps resurfacing in social media circles. It makes for good propoganda, first surfacing in Labour circles and now PV. Here's a fact check article on why it is flawed.

https://fullfact.org/economy/does-uk-have-poorest-regions-northern-europe/

 

On 20/06/2019 at 10:59, Inverted said:

I don't think it makes much sense economically, and I think nationalism is stupid in principle, but I sincerely can't guarantee that the English won't drag us into proper Hungary or Turkey-style authoritarianism in my lifetime, so I'd say separating us from them is the safe option. 

If you like the idea of seeing Scotland as a separate and unified entity responsible only for its own actions in UK decision making, we can use that thinking to state that the reason Corbyn isn't Prime Minister right now is the swing towards the Conservatives in Scotland 

Tell us again about how Scotland overwhelmingly voted remain and then delivered a Tory Brexit at the GE 

The "English" People's Vote fans hijacking indyref2 on their social media accounts could do with a lesson in how tactically the SNP's indy shouting is a disease upon their cause by driving people to the Tory party in Scotland 

 

[Fairy In Boots]

15 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

We haven’t had a normally operating government in years because of incompetent leaders. Not exactly a stable government.

The Tories have actually done a ok job but have been atrocious at PR and entirely unrelatable.

Brexit negotiations have been a fiasco but that because you’ve got a room full of Sir Balon’s trying to secure an exit from a trading block that they mistakenly believe is the be all and end all. Remainers are fairly ignorant of how much they’ve weakened our hand in negotiations  with their constant hissy fits. 

[SirBalon]

35 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

The Tories have actually done a ok job but have been atrocious at PR and entirely unrelatable.

Brexit negotiations have been a fiasco but that because you’ve got a room full of Sir Balon’s trying to secure an exit from a trading block that they mistakenly believe is the be all and end all. Remainers are fairly ignorant of how much they’ve weakened our hand in negotiations  with their constant hissy fits. 

Hahaha...

Go on, have a go.

How could negotiations have gone better with the red lines drawn?

[Inverted]

2 hours ago, Harvsky said:

 

If you like the idea of seeing Scotland as a separate and unified entity responsible only for its own actions in UK decision making, we can use that thinking to state that the reason Corbyn isn't Prime Minister right now is the swing towards the Conservatives in Scotland 

Tell us again about how Scotland overwhelmingly voted remain and then delivered a Tory Brexit at the GE 

The "English" People's Vote fans hijacking indyref2 on their social media accounts could do with a lesson in how tactically the SNP's indy shouting is a disease upon their cause by driving people to the Tory party in Scotland 

 

Perhaps people would still be voting Labour up here, if we had been given any reason to believe that there was a credible politics down south worth engaging with. 

The massing swing to the SNP (and the small Conservative pro-union reaction) was a result of 5 years of the Cameron government, which came off the back of a Labour landslide up here. Considering the fact that Cameron plunged us into the current disaster, I think we can see which side of the border was more prescient.

[Honey Honey]

1 hour ago, Inverted said:

Perhaps people would still be voting Labour up here, if we had been given any reason to believe that there was a credible politics down south worth engaging with. 

The massing swing to the SNP (and the small Conservative pro-union reaction) was a result of 5 years of the Cameron government, which came off the back of a Labour landslide up here. Considering the fact that Cameron plunged us into the current disaster, I think we can see which side of the border was more prescient.

The swing to the SNP at a Westminster level first occured in polls following the 2014 referendum, materialising electorally in 2015. Not in the 4 years beforehand showing the coalition government is not to blame. It is the divisiveness of that 2014 referendum which created the current political landscape in Scotland. That referendum damaged old Labour loyalties in 2015 and created an SNP vote from those with the bit between their teeth for independence following 2014.

Even a 1996 Blair wouldn't win in Scotland anymore. Scotland is going the way of Northern Ireland at Westminster level if it hasn't already. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

3 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

The Tories have actually done a ok job but have been atrocious at PR and entirely unrelatable.

Brexit negotiations have been a fiasco but that because you’ve got a room full of Sir Balon’s trying to secure an exit from a trading block that they mistakenly believe is the be all and end all. Remainers are fairly ignorant of how much they’ve weakened our hand in negotiations  with their constant hissy fits. 

They’ve done a terrible job and anyone involved in the Brexit negotiations is so unbelievably incompetent they ought to be drawn and quartered. And honestly, that’s probably too kind compared to what they actually deserve for their gross incompetence. The leadership contest having an absolute pack of clowns vying for PM is a sign of the state of the party - but it’s not just them either. All of this country’s leadership is an absolutely appalling disgrace, labour is also a fucking joke right now.

I think no matter how you slice it, we’re fucked because we’re being led into this new era by people that genuinely would have a hard time explaining the difference between their mouths and their arseholes

[Inverted]

13 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

The swing to the SNP at a Westminster level first occured in polls following the 2014 referendum, materialising electorally in 2015. Not in the 4 years beforehand showing the coalition government is not to blame. It is the divisiveness of that 2014 referendum which created the current political landscape in Scotland. That referendum damaged old Labour loyalties in 2015 and created an SNP vote from those with the bit between their teeth for independence following 2014.

Even a 1996 Blair wouldn't win in Scotland anymore. Scotland is going the way of Northern Ireland at Westminster level if it hasn't already.

Blair didn't need Scotland. You could have deducted every Scottish Labour seat from 1996 to 2010 and they'd still have had a majority. Likewise, an enormous Scottish Labour win in 2010 made no difference. 

We were already irrelevant at Westminster level, but now it's our fault that we have a Tory government when it's voters in England that consistently stick with them no matter what? 

 

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

They’ve done a terrible job and anyone involved in the Brexit negotiations is so unbelievably incompetent they ought to be drawn and quartered. And honestly, that’s probably too kind compared to what they actually deserve for their gross incompetence. The leadership contest having an absolute pack of clowns vying for PM is a sign of the state of the party - but it’s not just them either. All of this country’s leadership is an absolutely appalling disgrace, labour is also a fucking joke right now.

I think no matter how you slice it, we’re fucked because we’re being led into this new era by people that genuinely would have a hard time explaining the difference between their mouths and their arseholes

That's absolute rubbish mate and I'm sorry if that's come on strong.

The moment Theresa May drew her red lines there was absolutely no way negotiations could've gone any other way. That was the BEST deal available and for people to comment on this subject they should be fully aware of the terms and conditions signed up (curiously written up and passed through law by a British lawyer) for any nation either being thrown out of the EU or exting. Add to this our particular ("our" in terms of the UK) case with Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement which is an international peace treaty agreement (again written up by the British) there was no way it could've gone any other way. Infact the EU made concessions and went further than they should've which was risky in the case of setting a precedent.

After all the info and everything that's happened over the past three years I am shocked that people aren't upto scratch on all of this.

Tell me... HOW could the negotiations have gone better with a different result?

For someone to comment on this you CANNOT bring up names of individuals or rhetoric... You have to quote laws and regulations subject to this issue on any exit and relate them to us leaving the EU with any other outcome.

DON'T FORGET TO ADD THE RED LINES TO THE DEBATE AND RELATE THEM TO AN EVENTUAL OUTCOME!

You want info, you aren't upto scratch... Ask me, I'll guide you through it.

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

That's absolute rubbish mate and I'm sorry if that's come on strong.

The moment Theresa May drew her red lines there was absolutely no way negotiations could've gone any other way. That was the BEST deal available and for people to comment on this subject they should be fully aware of the terms and conditions signed up (curiously written up and passed through law by a British lawyer) for any nation either being thrown out of the EU or exting. Add to this our particular ("our" in terms of the UK) case with Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement which is an international peace treaty agreement (again written up by the British) there was no way it could've gone any other way. Infact the EU made concessions and went further than they should've which was risky in the case of setting a precedent.

After all the info and everything that's happened over the past three years I am shocked that people aren't upto scratch on all of this.

Tell me... HOW could the negotiations have gone better with a different result?

For someone to comment on this you CANNOT bring up names of individuals or rhetoric... You have to quote laws and regulations subject to this issue on any exit and relate them to us leaving the EU with any other outcome.

DON'T FORGET TO ADD THE RED LINES TO THE DEBATE AND RELATE THEM TO AN EVENTUAL OUTCOME!

You want info, you aren't upto scratch... Ask me, I'll guide you through it.

There shouldn’t have been red lines in the first place, it was a stupid negotiation tactic...

[SirBalon]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

There shouldn’t have been red lines in the first place, it was a stupid negotiation tactic...

You're right there and then we could've had a completely different outcome in negotiations mate. But tell me and be honest...

Could Theresa May have gotten away with NOT abolishing FOM as the main red line?

Would there have been any way whatsoever to deliver Brexit without ending the free movement of EU citizens? 

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

You're right there and then we could've had a completely different outcome in negotiations mate. But tell me and be honest...

Could Theresa May have gotten away with NOT abolishing FOM as the main red line?

Would there have been any way whatsoever to deliver Brexit without ending the free movement of EU citizens? 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

I know all that mate... We have that, the Customs Union and also the Single Market to take into account. Remember that there's a hell of a lot of ignorance in all of this because even that fool Nigel Farage in the campaign for the 2016 Referendum championed the Norway model which is part of the Single Market and ALSO the Customs Union which means they are also a part of FOM.

Remember one thing on what you have linked there... The Good Friday Agreement and the fact Northern Ireland is physically attached to an EU nation with no border where goods can travel through unchecked (without going into the flow of humans).

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, SirBalon said:

I know all that mate... We have that, the Customs Union and also the Single Market to take into account. Remember that there's a hell of a lot of ignorance in all of this because even that fool Nigel Farage in the campaign for the 2016 Referendum championed the Norway model which is part of the Single Market and ALSO the Customs Union which means they are also a part of FOM.

Remember one thing on what you have linked there... The Good Friday Agreement and the fact Northern Ireland is physically attached to an EU nation with no border where goods can travel through unchecked (without going into the flow of humans).

The EEA is the way to deliver a palatable Brexit to most people, and even then it’s a flawed way of leaving. But there’s no way to deliver a Brexit that will make everyone happy. We know No Deal, the far right wet dream, will leave shitloads unhappy. We know May’s bad deal (which nobody should expect the EU to budge on, btw - maybe had negotiations held in a different manner, but we had pure incompetence personified negotiating for us) will leave even more unhappy.

None of this really has fuck all to do with Scottish independence. Does seem funny that the traditional “unionist” party though seems hell bent on deriding the Scottish so much and seemingly actively encourages the Balkanisation of Britain. 

[Honey Honey]

54 minutes ago, Inverted said:

Blair didn't need Scotland. You could have deducted every Scottish Labour seat from 1996 to 2010 and they'd still have had a majority. Likewise, an enormous Scottish Labour win in 2010 made no difference. 

Blair point is not about arithimetic it's about the momentum behind a Labour movement. Point being it doesn't matter what that movement is, I doubt on the grounds of evidence so far that it would make a difference in the post 2014 environment.

54 minutes ago, Inverted said:

We were already irrelevant at Westminster level, but now it's our fault that we have a Tory government when it's voters in England that consistently stick with them no matter what? 

As I said in the beginning I was playing your game, playing up to your "we" "us" and the English them. Doesn't matter where you go in the UK everyone is manipulating lines to absolve a geographical identity of their choosing from how the UK actually works at the highest level. It's the cheapest of political tricks. The purpose of my original post being to turn it back on your geographical identity. That your geographical identity is irrelevant at Westminster is a tiring cry in every part of the UK. 

[SirBalon]

23 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

Blair point is not about arithimetic it's about the momentum behind a Labour movement. Point being it doesn't matter what that movement is, I doubt on the grounds of evidence so far that it would make a difference in the post 2014 environment.

As I said in the beginning I was playing your game, playing up to your "we" "us" and the English them. Doesn't matter where you go in the UK everyone is manipulating lines to absolve a geographical identity of their choosing from how the UK actually works at the highest level. It's the cheapest of political tricks. The purpose of my original post being to turn it back on your geographical identity. That your geographical identity is irrelevant at Westminster is a tiring cry in every part of the UK. 

The thing is that they are "We" and "Us" while we are "Them". Anything else is imperialism and ignoring that they finction and think as a discernibly different identity in all of this. They demand to be listened to and that it's taken on board. They should never have been included in the referendum. 

[SirBalon]

38 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The EEA is the way to deliver a palatable Brexit to most people, and even then it’s a flawed way of leaving. But there’s no way to deliver a Brexit that will make everyone happy. We know No Deal, the far right wet dream, will leave shitloads unhappy. We know May’s bad deal (which nobody should expect the EU to budge on, btw - maybe had negotiations held in a different manner, but we had pure incompetence personified negotiating for us) will leave even more unhappy.

None of this really has fuck all to do with Scottish independence. Does seem funny that the traditional “unionist” party though seems hell bent on deriding the Scottish so much and seemingly actively encourages the Balkanisation of Britain. 

You have failed to take on board the Good Friday Agreement and the fact that Northern Ireland are a part of the UK and physically attached to the island of Ireland. The EEA is an impossibility and doesn't enter any argument with a UK exit of the EU. Using the EEA is using a blanket association the EU abide by where everyone else doesn't have our particular issue.

It's not associated to our needs and requisites.

[Honey Honey]

12 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

The thing is that they are "We" and "Us" while we are "Them". Anything else is imperialism and ignoring that they finction and think as a discernibly different identity in all of this. They demand to be listened to and that it's taken on board. They should never have been included in the referendum. 

Imperialism 

You can have any identity you want. The question is when is it relevant and coherent and when isn't it. 

To say Scotland shouldn't have been in a Westminster level competency referendum is taking identity above its relevance.

[SirBalon]

9 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

Imperialism 

You can have any identity you want. The question is when is it relevant and coherent and when isn't it. 

To say Scotland shouldn't have been in a Westminster level competency referendum is taking identity above its relevance.

It's a consistent failure to understand and take on board that they are a nation, that they feel differently to where the relevance of the EU is in question and that we have imposed the rules as far as they're concerned. Their cry for independence is c a completely legitimate one and more so with current affairs. They on the other hand aren't willing to accept that they are a part of the UK and that the referendum included them in a blanket vote. They're not alone in not being listened to though because this is an English issue.

[Honey Honey]

18 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

It's a consistent failure to understand and take on board that they are a nation, that they feel differently to where the relevance of the EU is in question and that we have imposed the rules as far as they're concerned. Their cry for independence is c a completely legitimate one and more so with current affairs. They on the other hand aren't willing to accept that they are a part of the UK and that the referendum included them in a blanket vote. They're not alone in not being listened to though because this is an English issue.

The only failure here is the failure to understand how the UK political systems work. Attempting to bypass it with language and completely new ideas of what the UK is which do not fit to what the system actually determines the UK is and has been for decades. It's falling for the nationalist propaganda hook line and sinker. Holyrood does not have the competency over Brexit, no matter how much you want to pretend it should have. Holyrood didn't even exist about 20 years ago, it was just a patch of grass on royal residence.

There is no such political entity as England and Brexit just being an English issue will no doubt be a funny one to Hewitt.

[SirBalon]

25 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

The only failure here is the failure to understand how the UK political systems work. Attempting to bypass it with language and completely new ideas of what the UK is which do not fit to what the system actually determines the UK is and has been for decades. It's falling for the nationalist propaganda hook line and sinker. Holyrood does not have the competency over Brexit, no matter how much you want to pretend it should have. Holyrood didn't even exist about 20 years ago, it was just a patch of grass on royal residence.

There is no such political entity as England and Brexit just being an English issue will no doubt be a funny one to Hewitt.

No no... It's a failure to listen and a failure to take in the facts. Forget what was or even what is. Listen, read and taken on board. Brexit is an English issue in its entirety and Brexit is also a scapegoat in its totallity for English governmental failings for decades. After this we simply have dirty bigotry and nationalism fuelled by imperialism.

[Honey Honey]

46 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

No no... It's a failure to listen and a failure to take in the facts. Forget what was or even what is. Listen, read and taken on board. Brexit is an English issue in its entirety and Brexit is also a scapegoat in its totallity for English governmental failings for decades. After this we simply have dirty bigotry and nationalism fuelled by imperialism.

In the 2017 General Election the majority of my constituency at the time voted Conservative and I did not. Under your agency stripping logic I subsequently do not exist.

Who is really the one who does not hear or see?

[SirBalon]

17 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

In the 2017 General Election the majority of my constituency at the time voted Conservative and I did not. Under your agency stripping logic I subsequently do not exist.

Who is really the one who does not hear or see?

I have no idea what that comment has to do with the question here. I didn't vote Tory either where as I had in the previous General Election but fail to understand where Scottish independence matters on my voting patterns.

[SirBalon]

Actually let me amend my previous post... In the previous GE I voted Green. The one before I had voted Tory and the one before that Labour. Quite a diverse assortment of patterns.