ScoRoss 799 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Only use when clear and obvious? Or should every goal be reviewed? Analyse every possible angle frame by frame? Or only allow reviews at full speed? Have decisions made by the VAR assistant? Or have the referee notified and have them decide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Have the balls to make the right decision. Don't involve the referee, the head VAR assistant in the studio suffices and will speed up the process. Just make sure it's the correct decision and forget everyone and everything (this reverts to rule 1, HAVE BALLS) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber JoshBRFC+ 1,388 Posted June 25, 2019 Subscriber Share Posted June 25, 2019 Get rid of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber CaaC (John)+ 5,358 Posted June 25, 2019 Subscriber Share Posted June 25, 2019 The man above makes the final decision, not the referees, how many times have we seen the ball lobbed upfield and the ref and 2 linesmen run like greyhound's to catch up and a goal is scored and they have not a birdseye view of the player being offside or fouling someone beforehand then score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Mel81x+ 3,607 Posted June 25, 2019 Subscriber Share Posted June 25, 2019 I think its been said quite well on here but why a ref gets to take a call on a decision made by the VAR staff which could say no its not a penalty but hey you decide is beyond me. If you've got the tech and they've analyzed the situation let them have the final say and that's it. Sure, the ref can view it but I don't think thats for anything other than noticing whats gone on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewolf 7,161 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 11 hours ago, ScoRoss said: Only use when clear and obvious? Or should every goal be reviewed? Analyse every possible angle frame by frame? Or only allow reviews at full speed? Have decisions made by the VAR assistant? Or have the referee notified and have them decide? If you reviewed every goal that would slow the game right down, It should only be used if there is either a clear and obvious foul/offside or other incident like a possible handball etc.. I think for the second one you have to review it frame by frame in slow motion to get the call right, anything like in normal time makes it difficult to make the call for me... Might as well have the VAR team make the call, they would be the ones that highlight to the ref they are checking it anyway so to a degree they have already flagged an issue from their point of view so no point in then turning the final call back to the ref... I must say though that the offside decisions/calls are sometimes so bloody tight they actually work against attacking football... There is clear and obvious offside where someone has one leg or a foot or more in a clear offside position thus gaining an advantage like below... And then there is this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirBalon 2,692 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Bluewolf said: It should only be used if there is either a clear and obvious foul/offside or other incident like a possible handball etc.. etc...? You mean when a goal is scored and someone complains then! Add to the list that a goal review must be issued everytime Real Madrid score a goal. It’s been proven they’ve only scored 3 legitimate goals this century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewolf 7,161 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 hour ago, SirBalon said: etc...? You mean when a goal is scored and someone complains then! Etc covers all those other types of incident like being bitten by a horse toothed Uruguayan savage for example, something I think you will not find in any football manual under fouls or indeed acts of fair play or gentlemanly conduct.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 11 hours ago, ScoRoss said: Only use when clear and obvious This. I wouldn't mind it if it's only for rules that are normally applied. The problem now though is that it's being used for such fringe rules that not even Infantino has heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Dan+ 1,914 Posted June 25, 2019 Subscriber Share Posted June 25, 2019 Just get rid. Let it be a lesson to us all to appreciate what we had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewolf 7,161 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Dan said: Just get rid. Let it be a lesson to us all to appreciate what we had. Like this gem you mean... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Dan+ 1,914 Posted June 25, 2019 Subscriber Share Posted June 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, Bluewolf said: Like this gem you mean... I'd take that happening even to us if it means we can retain the sport as a proper experience and not this farce that VAR has turned it into. I've said it many a time on here, when people have accepted VAR you have lost a significant part of the atmosphere and the entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, Dan said: I'd take that happening even to us if it means we can retain the sport as a proper experience and not this farce that VAR has turned it into. I've said it many a time on here, when people have accepted VAR you have lost a significant part of the atmosphere and the entertainment. And there are still people who obssess over the law just to try and keep VAR and claim it as "justice" Let me just say that is not why we fell in love with the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan 18,349 Posted June 25, 2019 Administrator Share Posted June 25, 2019 14 minutes ago, Dan said: I'd take that happening even to us Would you fuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewolf 7,161 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Dan said: I'd take that happening even to us if it means we can retain the sport as a proper experience and not this farce that VAR has turned it into. I've said it many a time on here, when people have accepted VAR you have lost a significant part of the atmosphere and the entertainment. 1 hour ago, Grizzly21 said: And there are still people who obssess over the law just to try and keep VAR and claim it as "justice" Let me just say that is not why we fell in love with the sport. Don't be a couple of troglodytes.. got to move with the times people... This is what International Rugby Ref said about TMO in his own sport, it' the equivalent of VAR to us.. Whereas in the early days, the TMO would only be called into action to clear up contentious calls about whether or not tries had been grounded or feet had strayed into touch, it is now responsible for monitoring build-up play for everything from forward passes to dangerous play. Not that it was all plain sailing. "We had a problem at the beginning in rugby where the crowd got irritable,” says Morrison. “The first game that was played in the Premiership with the TMO, I think there were something like 10 referrals. “The crowd were slow hand-clapping and all hell was let loose about the amount of time it was taking.” Which is why he would urge those football fans who remain unconvinced about the new innovations to remain patient. "These are all things that happen when you start a new process like this. Any system you bring in is complex, and you're going to have some humps and bumps along the way,” he says. “The match officials have to become comfortable with the process and the system, and that sometimes takes a bit of time to bed in.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 @Bluewolf it's been almost 3 years since VAR was first implemented and nothing has improved, and rather I think it's regressed. Football to me is a spectacle. It's why I fell in love with the sport. Free flowing and simple. VAR may correct decisions but it's ruining the spectacle for me. I didn't fall in love with football because I "liked the rules" and I doubt many others did. American football is my least favourite sport. It's pointless to me and it's because the game is just stop after stop. I don't want soccer/football to become that. The thing that's really irking me though is that people still defend it because "it gets the right decisions". That's not what this sport is about I'm afraid. Some people obsess over the law of the game too much, especially when it comes to rules nobody, not even FIFA knows of. This is a spectacle for us, otherwise what is the point of watching? Handball goals, off the screen fouls, sure they are bad but they aren't the norm. I can name you 5 handball goals in history. I know there were more but let's be real, there aren't enough of them to taint the sport. Even then, killing the flow of the game is tainting the sport in the same way. Let us live with referee mistakes. 99% of the time, that's what they are, mistakes, not malice attempt to screw over the other team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewolf 7,161 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Grizzly21 said: @Bluewolf it's been almost 3 years since VAR was first implemented and nothing has improved, and rather I think it's regressed. I understand that mate, I came through football with zero technology being used and don't get me wrong the way it's being used at the moment is still a bit hit and miss but let's not forget that VAR has been rolled out bit by bit rather than it being the bog standard throughout from day one so we still have some way to go... On the upside the calls would be correct so we would eliminate cheating or acts of deception, on the downside of course the controversy element will eventually disappear to be replaced with the cold hard facts.. I will agree with you that a lot of the emotion that goes with football is through decisions right or wrong which has always been part of the game and gives us plenty to talk about, but in fairness even with VAR we are still getting hot under the collar about some aspects of it so that emotion has just been transferred somewhere else... they need to not be so reliant on it and find a way of speeding up the decision process for sure but it can't be a bad thing that calls are at least correct.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Dan+ 1,914 Posted June 25, 2019 Subscriber Share Posted June 25, 2019 Football's comfortably better than rugby. That might be my own opinion but the viewing figures only go to back me up. I don't get the comparisons to other sports - they're all worse than football in my eyes, it's as simple as that. VAR in-particularly this summer has just churned out farcical incident after farcical incident, it's proven that this "right to go down" nonsense is in-fact legitimate (even though that's the kind of thing VAR needs to eradicate), it's now promoting the idea that any contact with the hand is a handball regardless of any other factor. I'm not going to pretend it's never had any positive effect but the cons outweigh the pros for me and I really am worried it's going to take away a significant part of why we love football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 It's also so selective. Some incidents go unnoticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Mel81x+ 3,607 Posted June 25, 2019 Subscriber Share Posted June 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, Grizzly21 said: It's also so selective. Some incidents go unnoticed. Thats because although its bleeding-edge technology you're still at the mercy of the referee to make the decision and then you wonder whats the point of the tech? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewolf 7,161 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Dan said: Football's comfortably better than rugby. That might be my own opinion but the viewing figures only go to back me up. I don't get the comparisons to other sports - they're all worse than football in my eyes, it's as simple as that. VAR in-particularly this summer has just churned out farcical incident after farcical incident, it's proven that this "right to go down" nonsense is in-fact legitimate (even though that's the kind of thing VAR needs to eradicate), it's now promoting the idea that any contact with the hand is a handball regardless of any other factor. I'm not going to pretend it's never had any positive effect but the cons outweigh the pros for me and I really am worried it's going to take away a significant part of why we love football. I mentioned TMO because it was a similar system put in place but for Rugby and the point was that in the early stages they too had issues that now seem to have resolved themselves after initially been seen in the same negative light... 1 hour ago, Grizzly21 said: It's also so selective. Some incidents go unnoticed. Not all, The VAR team will advise the ref of any incident it thinks needs looking into and the Ref has to make the call.. I am just reading that the game between Cameroon & England the other night the ref ignored the VAR advice twice to ensure that the Cameroon players didn't walk off the pitch... and she is being backed by FIFA because they were worried the game would spiral out of control.... So things like this... All fell by the wayside to keep an over emotional dirty side happy... Following the letter of the law they should have been Red Carded for those incidents and this is what could make a mockery of VAR... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Dan+ 1,914 Posted June 25, 2019 Subscriber Share Posted June 25, 2019 That's an absolutely piss poor use of VAR in my eyes - if there are five different red card incidents you give five red cards, I don't get how anyone can argue against that. How long in your eyes @Bluewolf did the scepticism in rugby last for? Because we've had VAR about eighteen months now and it hasn't really improved a jot since it was introduced. I think it fundamentally doesn't really work in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burning Gold 599 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Make it faster. Allow the referee to initiate reviews in play. Call up "have a look at that" and the VAR team can have a look at the incident and radio down a decision without play having to stop. Which I think is what they do in rugby to make it as seamless as possible. Clarify the rules. I don't think it's possible in every case, but if you have clear, objective rules, it's relatively quick to check the video footage and see if they've been broken. Compare the review for handball in the Champions League final compared to some that we saw in the World Cup last year. Give managers/teams control over initiating reviews. Shifts the responsibility for referring or "missing" incidents away from the referee and means you're not stopping to check literally everything. CriPcket and a few others have a hybrid system where some decisions can be reviewed by the umpires and some by the teams. This one isn't about improving VAR really, but if, upon review, you have clear evidence that a player has dived, punish them for it! 2 hours ago, Dan said: I'd take that happening even to us if it means we can retain the sport as a proper experience and not this farce that VAR has turned it into. I've said it many a time on here, when people have accepted VAR you have lost a significant part of the atmosphere and the entertainment. This hasn't happened in any other sport where video reviews have been introduced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Mel81x+ 3,607 Posted June 25, 2019 Subscriber Share Posted June 25, 2019 I also think the reason VAR is such a hard pill to swallow right now its because its not widely accepted at domestic league levels too. Surely a few tournaments here and there isn't really the only way to both benchmark and improve the process around the use of the technology. If you start seeing it across the board then edge-case and repeat incidents get more clarity and are made more clearer with better process. Take for example last night when Sweden had technically won the match and were celebrating but VAR was still trying to validate a hand-ball in the box before they ruled it out and called the match. Its hard to really blame just the technology in these instances because it shows you the actual act. What is a bit weird is how referees are allowed to interpret those incidents and run them along with whatever other decisions they've made. The idea of the tech is to help the refs not give them more to chew on and that's where its all wrong. The decision should never be in the hands of the referee ever and should be up to the team running VAR for the match. Do that and not only will you see faster decisions and less stop-and-go but a better experience overall. It does seem wrong that the referee can't make a decision here but then again how do you allow someone who is hounded by an entire team to make a call to be the one that finally has to make a decision even if he/she has facts to back up the call. They've done this with goal-line technology and I think they can get this right with VAR too. The implementations and who gets to make the call are all wrong right now and that's why its causing so much controversy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluewolf 7,161 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Dan said: That's an absolutely piss poor use of VAR in my eyes - if there are five different red card incidents you give five red cards, I don't get how anyone can argue against that. How long in your eyes @Bluewolf did the scepticism in rugby last for? Because we've had VAR about eighteen months now and it hasn't really improved a jot since it was introduced. I think it fundamentally doesn't really work in football. There was also a stamping incident and even the Ref got shoved in the back quite aggressively by one of the Cameroon players yet those players were allowed to stay on the pitch... crazy really On your other point TMO was introduced as far back as 2001 and even in 2014 they were some parties still kicking off about certain decisions which you will always get but it's a bit more difficult to make good calls in Rugby, it's more of an assistance than a be all and end all but in general, overall it's an accepted part of the game now.. I couldn't really tell you how long it took for the dust to settle in all honesty As for VAR I would have been happy if they could have sorted out the goal line incidents first did it cross the line/didn't it cross for example and any serious shouts like handball for instance but not for everything.. the rest needs to be handled by the ref to keep the flow of the game going.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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