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Climate Change

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43 minutes ago, nudge said:

I don't think it's fair or even correct to say that governments and companies have just decided to ignore climate change altogether. It definitely varies from country to country and from region to region but talking about Europe the number of coal plants has been decreasing rapidly (in  Western Europe), renewables have been on the rise and subsidised by the governments (almost half of EU countries have already met or are close to meeting their 2020 targets) and actually overtook fossil fuels in terms of energy production in the last two years, car manufacturers started reducing emissions and are shifting towards e-cars, energy efficiency has been improving and there has been a significant overall decrease in the use of fossil fuels in the EU and it continues to decrease every year; so it's not as if nobody has ever done anything or ignored the issue altogether. My point is, the issue of energy economy is highly complex and global energy demand is growing as it's the key for human well-being, economic development and poverty alleviation; with further global population increase and economic development in most African and Asian countries happening at a break neck speed it will only get worse in the future. You can't just expect to stop it and go completely "green" (and definitely not overnight) and still meet the needs of everyone; you would need drastic changes to the whole system to make significant improvements even remotely possible and as it seems it isn't feasible without shutting down entire industries and heavily impacting living standards of many people thus creating a ton of social issues. So how exactly do you do that and still keep the balance and meet growing energy demands? How do you make a change at a huge global scale, not tiny, individual or community level things that make no measurable difference? How do you even do it on a global scale?
I really don't see how children yelling "we need to do something!" is doing any good; it's a nothing-statement. I'm also extremely skeptical about any movements that hasn't got people who offer or at least work towards any realistic solutions and alternatives while engaging in a proper dialogue to find them; it's unproductive and I just can't take them seriously. As an example, if they are so adamant that we have to "listen to the scientists", why is it done selectively to push for certain things but not the others? Why do they dismiss clean nuclear power completely and even vilify it? Which is a bit ironic considering that the anti-nuclear message has probably done more to hamper actual positive climate change development than anything in the last two decades. Why do they stubbornly push for renewables only while ignoring the fact that they are not feasible on their own, and are likely not a dependable sole energy source on a long-term? Why do they concentrate on the disadvantages of some energy sources while completely ignoring the shortcomings of the others they're advocating for? Why does it focus on fear and scaremongering and use manipulative tactics? Just too many things that rub people the wrong way without contributing to the solution of the problem; hence me calling it useless.

I'm all for looking for ways to make it all cleaner but at the same time I think we should also be primarily investing in technological advances looking into ways to adapt to the upcoming changes and mitigate their potential consequences.

I agree with you re: nuclear energy

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It´s wrong to attack Greta because she is just a kid. 

But at the same time, I don´t think she should be given the plataform she´s being given exactly because she´s just a kid. She doesn´t have the expertise to debate the subjects she brings up with the depth it´s needed. 

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, nudge said:

I don't think it's fair or even correct to say that governments and companies have just decided to ignore climate change altogether. It definitely varies from country to country and from region to region but talking about Europe the number of coal plants has been decreasing rapidly (in  Western Europe), renewables have been on the rise and subsidised by the governments (almost half of EU countries have already met or are close to meeting their 2020 targets) and actually overtook fossil fuels in terms of energy production in the last two years, car manufacturers started reducing emissions and are shifting towards e-cars, energy efficiency has been improving and there has been a significant overall decrease in the use of fossil fuels in the EU and it continues to decrease every year; so it's not as if nobody has ever done anything or ignored the issue altogether. My point is, the issue of energy economy is highly complex and global energy demand is growing as it's the key for human well-being, economic development and poverty alleviation; with further global population increase and economic development in most African and Asian countries happening at a break neck speed it will only get worse in the future. You can't just expect to stop it and go completely "green" (and definitely not overnight) and still meet the needs of everyone; you would need drastic changes to the whole system to make significant improvements even remotely possible and as it seems it isn't feasible without shutting down entire industries and heavily impacting living standards of many people thus creating a ton of social issues. So how exactly do you do that and still keep the balance and meet growing energy demands? How do you make a change at a huge global scale, not tiny, individual or community level things that make no measurable difference? How do you even do it on a global scale?
I really don't see how children yelling "we need to do something!" is doing any good; it's a nothing-statement. I'm also extremely skeptical about any movements that hasn't got people who offer or at least work towards any realistic solutions and alternatives while engaging in a proper dialogue to find them; it's unproductive and I just can't take them seriously. As an example, if they are so adamant that we have to "listen to the scientists", why is it done selectively to push for certain things but not the others? Why do they dismiss clean nuclear power completely and even vilify it? Which is a bit ironic considering that the anti-nuclear message has probably done more to hamper actual positive climate change development than anything in the last two decades. Why do they stubbornly push for renewables only while ignoring the fact that they are not feasible on their own, and are likely not a dependable sole energy source on a long-term? Why do they concentrate on the disadvantages of some energy sources while completely ignoring the shortcomings of the others they're advocating for? Why does it focus on fear and scaremongering and use manipulative tactics? Just too many things that rub people the wrong way without contributing to the solution of the problem; hence me calling it useless.

I'm all for looking for ways to make it all cleaner but at the same time I think we should also be primarily investing in technological advances looking into ways to adapt to the upcoming changes and mitigate their potential consequences.

Well said. This is the perspective of many and a good example of vested interests getting involved and disrupting the debate that needs to be had.

I would strongly support the closure of my states oldest coal power station and construction of a new natural gas combined cycle power station in the same location.

I'd also support a rollout of nuclear power plants across Australia to provide a carbon neutral source of baseload power although that would take more than a decade even if fast tracked.

Those are serious solutions that could radically reduce the emissions profile of Australia and ones we should be talking about but those driving for action on climate change continue to pretend that wind solar and battery storage is the only options that can be discussed.

I think the lack of media critique of Greta thunberg is an example of what is wrong with mainstream media these days. There is a genuine lack of critique of anyone left of centre that is perceived as acting with their heart in the right place except from dodgy sources like the Murdoch press that go too far on the other direction... That is a concerning issue and completely plays into narratives of the mainstream media polarisation.

They need to break the herd mentality and ensure they are at least questioning things that those in the centre would be questioning.

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Mont Blanc: Glacier in danger of collapse, experts warn

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Italian authorities have closed roads and evacuated mountain huts after experts warned that part of a glacier on Mont Blanc could collapse.

About 250,000 cubic metres of ice is in danger of breaking away from the Planpincieux glacier on the Grandes Jorasses peak, officials said.

The mayor of the nearby town of Courmayeur said global warming was changing the mountain.

The Mont Blanc massif is Western Europe's highest mountain range.

It has 11 peaks above 4,000m in France and Italy and attracts hundreds of thousands of tourists every year.

On Tuesday, Courmayeur Mayor Stefano Miserocchi signed an order closing roads in the Val Ferret on the Italian side of Mont Blanc, after experts warned that a section of the glacier was sliding at speeds of 50-60cm (16-23in) per day.

He said there was no threat to residential areas or tourist facilities but mountain huts in the Rochefort area were being evacuated as a precaution.

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"These phenomena once again show how the mountain is going through a period of major change due to climate factors and, therefore, it is particularly vulnerable," Mr Miserocchi told Italian media.

Experts from the Valle d'Aosta regional government and the Fondazione Montagna Sicura (Safe Mountain Foundation) say it is impossible to predict exactly when the mass of ice might collapse.

The Planpincieux glacier has been closely monitored since 2013 in an attempt to establish the frequency with which ice is melting. But authorities warn that there is no "alert system" in place.

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In one weather-related incident on August 2018, an elderly couple were killed near Planpincieux in Courmayeur when their car was swept from a road and into a valley during a landslide. Hundreds of people were evacuated, some of them by helicopter.

Rising global temperatures are causing the melting of mountain glaciers and the retreat of polar ice sheets.

Earlier this month, dozens of people took part in a "funeral march" to mark the disappearance of the Pizol glacier in north-east Switzerland.

The glacier, in the Glarus Alps, has shrunk to a tiny fraction of its original size.

Scientists say it has lost at least 80% of its volume just since 2006, a trend accelerated by rising global temperatures. Last month, a ceremony took place in Iceland to commemorate a glacier that was officially declared dead five years ago.

Earlier this year tourists on the island captured a section of another glacier, Breiðamerkurjökull, breaking away, which prompted a large wave.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49820542

 

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17 hours ago, El Profesor said:

It´s wrong to attack Greta because she is just a kid. 

But at the same time, I don´t think she should be given the plataform she´s being given exactly because she´s just a kid. She doesn´t have the expertise to debate the subjects she brings up with the depth it´s needed. 

 

 

 

I don't know if Greta is right or wrong. However, I just want people to get past our disability and listen to us before agreeing and disagreeing. I've said some good stuff before that just gets totally ignored, only to see someone post it after and then get all sorts of listeners.

If you want to disagree, that's fine! I myself have no problem with disagreements. However I rather have those people speak and tell me why they disagree than just stay on the silent front.

I can't say I support her movement but I am listening to her at the very least.

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20 minutes ago, Grizzly21 said:

I don't know if Greta is right or wrong. However, I just want people to get past our disability and listen to us before agreeing and disagreeing. I've said some good stuff before that just gets totally ignored, only to see someone post it after and then get all sorts of listeners.

If you want to disagree, that's fine! I myself have no problem with disagreements. However I rather have those people speak and tell me why they disagree than just stay on the silent front.

I can't say I support her movement but I am listening to her at the very least.

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Re-read my post. I´ve never mentioned her condition. On the contrary, I´ve criticized those who attack her. 

And no, I will not listen to Greta. Firstly, because I don´t think kids should take part in politics. It´s a toxic environment and they shouldn´t be exposed to it. I don´t want more kids to be part of the public discourse and I will not give incentives for it to happen. 

Secondly, like I´ve said before, she´s not a expert in the subjects she brings up. Her message is shallow and of no interest to me. I have no need for her as an intermediary saying scientists should be listented to. If I want to know more about global warning I´d rather read a scientific paper than listening to a teenager.

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Just now, El Profesor said:

 

Re-read my post. I´ve never mentioned her condition. On the contrary, I´ve criticized those who attack her. 

And no, I will not listen to Greta. Firstly, because I don´t think kids should take part in politics. It´s a toxic environment and they shouldn´t be exposed to it. I don´t want more kids to be part of the public discourse and I will not give incentives for it to happen. 

Secondly, like I´ve said before, she´s not a expert in the subjects she brings up. Her message is shallow and of no interest to me. I have no need for her as an intermediary saying scientists should be listented to. If I want to know more about global warning I´d rather read a scientific paper than listening to a teenager.

What?

I wasn't going against you. I know you didn't say anything. I am having a pop at the people who attacked her. I agree with you she's young and that maybe we shouldn't support the movement, I just want people to listen to her at least, which you yourself did as I would expect.

She could be wrong or right but as someone who feels discriminated in real life, I am tired of people not listening to us.

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4 minutes ago, Grizzly21 said:

What?

I wasn't going against you. I know you didn't say anything. I am having a pop at the people who attacked her. I agree with you she's young and that maybe we shouldn't support the movement, I just want people to listen to her at least, which you yourself did as I would expect.

She could be wrong or right but as someone who feels discriminated in real life, I am tired of people not listening to us.

 

The real issue is that I´m against her superexposition and I also don´t think she brings anything interest to the public discourse. This is why I try to not engage in anything realted to Greta. It has nothing to with her condition. 

On the contrary, there are many people with Asperger´s who are brilliant and they definitely should be listened to.

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I feel the same. I didn't even know she had a condition of any sort. I just don't think it's appropriate for children to be used as Propaganda tools in political forums, and I don't feel she has the appropriate level of knowledge and perspective, particularly of economics and what's achievable. I pretty much agreed with what our prime Minister had to say, which is a rare event believe me...

 

" I do understand that people feel strongly about this, but I think we also have to take stock, we have to ensure we get a proper context and perspective,” Morrison said.

“I want children growing up in Australia to feel positive about their future, and I think it is important we give them that confidence that they will not only have a wonderful country and pristine environment to live in, that they will also have an economy to live in as well.

“I don’t want our children to have anxieties about these issues.”

He acknowledged that he spoke to his own daughters, aged 10 and 12, about climate change. “We don’t have deep conversations about emissions reduction targets and what’s happening with the Kyoto protocol and Paris, but we talk about fossil fuels and we talk about what they learn at school, and I encourage them to have a passionate independent view about how they see the world, but I also give them a lot of context.

“I don’t allow them to be basically contorted into one particular view. I like them to make up their own mind but I also like to give them reassurance because the worst thing I would impose on any child is needless anxiety. They’ve got enough things to be anxious about.

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Slightly amusing to see people on Twitter who wanted to punch the Covington kids now being offended by the people unleashing vitriol on Greta. 

Personally think anyone who goes after kids is a scum. 

But the public has every right to question her, as long as it is done in a civil manner. 

On a larger debate, as someone who comes from developing nation, it's hard to just give up economic development for much needed climate action. The problem is made more difficult when organisations like Greenpeace, and others that Greata is tied up with torpedo Nuclear energy projects. 

Solar energy is not feasible currently on a large scale. Our current government has pushed it really hard since 2014 but hasn't found large scale participation because the hardware is expensive.

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46 minutes ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

Slightly amusing to see people on Twitter who wanted to punch the Covington kids now being offended by the people unleashing vitriol on Greta. 

Personally think anyone who goes after kids is a scum. 

But the public has every right to question her, as long as it is done in a civil manner. 

On a larger debate, as someone who comes from developing nation, it's hard to just give up economic development for much needed climate action. The problem is made more difficult when organisations like Greenpeace, and others that Greata is tied up with torpedo Nuclear energy projects. 

Solar energy is not feasible currently on a large scale. Our current government has pushed it really hard since 2014 but hasn't found large scale participation because the hardware is expensive.

Solar and wind have a part to play but they are variable and produce at a level well below their stated capacity.

A 1000MW wind plant would produce 150-250MW on average over time that would vary hugely depending on day and time, whereas a 1000MW coal plant will produce that amount same amount basically all the time for decades....

Allot of people don't recognise that distinction. A wind plant produces at its capacity for a few hours on a day of perfect wind conditions. It's so much less stable than coal, nuclear, gas, hydro or oil.

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Can't help but feel the 'but she's just a child' defense is a pre-meditated tactic by those who use her for publicity (such as the tech start-up We Don't Have Time). It has to be a conscious choice to spread your political message on a rudimentary, emotional level through a minor such that it will provoke an emotional, often vitriolic response out of your detractors, who you can then slap out of the debate with the 'she's just a child' defense.

I have no thoughts one way or the other on that kid but it just confirms to me that using children for your political (or economic) gain is wrong and vulgar regardless of the message.

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Climate change: UN panel signals red alert on 'Blue Planet'

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Climate change is devastating our seas and frozen regions as never before, a major new United Nations report warns.

According to a UN panel of scientists, waters are rising, the ice is melting, and species are moving habitat due to human activities.

And the loss of permanently frozen lands threatens to unleash even more carbon, hastening the decline.

There is some guarded hope that the worst impacts can be avoided, with deep and immediate cuts to carbon emissions.

This is the third in a series of special reports that have been produced by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) over the past 12 months.

The scientists previously looked at how the world would cope if temperatures rose by 1.5C by the end of this century. They also reported on how the lands of the Earth would be affected by climate change.

However, this new study, looking at the impact of rising temperatures on our oceans and frozen regions, is perhaps the most worrying and depressing of the three.

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FULL REPORT

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2 hours ago, Stick With Azeem said:

There have been like 3-4 like these in the last four years, we have a history with earthquakes but this is unusual.

This should be here, there was an earthquake at the exact time as here in Turkey as well. 41 aftershocks felt so far in Turkey and here.... 

Earth signaling us that stop fucking around ?

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From what I have read about Greta it is her own doing. It doesn't appear to be her parents manufacturing it. In fact with her asperges I would imagine it would be hard for her to lie if it were her parents making her do it @Grizzly21 ?

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315 billion-tonne iceberg breaks off Antarctica

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The Amery Ice Shelf in Antarctica has just produced its biggest iceberg in more than 50 years.

The calved block covers 1,636 sq km in the area - a little smaller than Scotland's Isle of Skye - and is called D28.

The scale of the berg means it will have to be monitored and tracked because it could in the future pose a hazard to shipping.

Not since the early 1960s has Amery calved a bigger iceberg. That was a whopping 9,000 sq km in area.

Amery is the third largest ice shelf in Antarctica and is a key drainage channel for the east of the continent.

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FULL REPORT

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What are people's opinions on Extinction Rebellion? Are they just a bunch of cunts?

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I called it off with a girl I was seeing a couple months back because she looked a bit like Greta. Still laugh when I see her face on my timeline on Instagram.

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The sixth mass extinction has been initiated 

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Greenbrier Valley floods: Confronting climate change in Trump's coal country

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It was the day the UK voted to leave the European Union but nobody cared about that in White Sulphur Springs.

On 23 June 2016, the residents of this small West Virginia town were fighting to survive.

They had been engulfed by a flash flood after torrential rain described by the US National Weather Service as a "one-in-a-thousand-year" storm.

Water, mud and debris coursed down from the steep, thickly-forested slopes of the Appalachian mountains into Greenbrier Valley where the town sits.

It smashed into homes and businesses, rupturing gas lines and setting properties ablaze.

One video posted on a local news website showed a burning house, ripped from its foundations, floating through the town.

By the time it was all over, 23 people across West Virginia were dead, most of them in Greenbrier County.

FULL REPORT

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Polarstern icebreaker begins year-long Arctic drift

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German Research Vessel Polarstern has found a location to begin its year-long drift in Arctic sea-ice.

The ship, which will head the North Pole's biggest scientific expedition, will settle next to a thick ice floe on the Siberian side of the ocean basin.

The precise location is 85 degrees north and 137 degrees east.

Hundreds of investigators will use it as a base from which to probe the impacts of climate change at the top of the world.

"After a brief but intensive search, we've found our home for the months to come," said expedition leader Prof Markus Rex, from the Alfred Wegener Institute (AWI).

"It may not be the perfect floe but it's the best one in this part of the Arctic and offers better working conditions than we could have expected after a warm Arctic summer."

FULL REPORT

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On 03/10/2019 at 03:17, Spike said:

Greta is right to be honest.

She is right but I'm still not sure she's helpful in any way at all. Just making the believers feel better about themselves and further demonizing anyone who wasn't onside.

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'Ozone hole vigilance still required'

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The recovery of the ozone layer over Antarctica cannot be taken for granted and requires constant vigilance.

That's the message from Dr Jonathan Shanklin, one of the scientists who first documented the annual thinning of the protective gas in the 1980s.

This year's "hole" in the stratosphere high above the White Continent is the smallest in three decades.

It's welcome, says Dr Shanklin, but we should really only view it as an anomaly.

The better than expected levels of ozone have been attributed to a sudden warming at high altitudes, which can occasionally happen.

This has worked to stymie the chemical reactions that usually destroy ozone 15-30km above the planet.

"To see whether international treaties are working or not, you need to look at the long term," Dr Shanklin told BBC News.

"A quick glance this year might lead you to think we've fixed the ozone hole. We haven't. And although things are improving, there are still some countries out there who are manufacturing chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), the chemicals that have been responsible for the problem. We cannot be complacent."

FULL REPORT

 

 

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Climate change: Big lifestyle changes are the only answer

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The UK government must tell the public small, easy changes will not be enough to tackle climate change, warn experts.

Researchers from Imperial College London say we must eat less meat and dairy, swap cars for bikes, take fewer flights, and ditch gas boilers at home.

The report, seen by BBC Panorama,  has been prepared for the Committee on Climate Change, which advises ministers how to cut the UK's carbon footprint.

It says an upheaval in our lifestyles is the only way to meet targets.

The government has passed a law obliging the country to cut carbon emissions to net-zero by 2050.

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Why migrating to another planet is a stupid and implausible idea

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Swiss astrophysicist Michel Mayor, whose work detecting exoplanets recently earned him a share in the Nobel prize for physics, says humans will never migrate beyond our own solar system. Maybe it’s time we started taking this whole “climate change” thing seriously.

The first exoplanet with the potential to host life as we know it, meaning it was orbiting a star similar to the one we call ‘the sun,’ was discovered by Mayor and fellow Nobel winner Didier Queloz in 1995. In the time since researchers have confirmed the existence of more than 4,000 exoplanets. But we won’t be making the trip to any of them, says Mayor.

He told Agence France-Press:

If we are talking about exoplanets, things should be clear: we will not migrate there. These planets are much, much too far away. Even in the very optimistic case of a livable planet that is not too far, say a few dozen light-years, which is not a lot, it’s in the neighbourhood, the time to go there is considerable. We are talking about hundreds of millions of days using the means we have available today.

Rather than concern ourselves with dreams of colonizing planets throughout our galaxy and beyond, Mayor says “We must take care of our planet.” He told AFP that he wanted to dissuade people from thinking of migration as a viable solution to existential threats, telling reporters he felt the need to “kill all the statements that say ‘OK, we will go to a livable planet if one day life is not possible on earth.” He went on to call such sentiments “completely crazy.”

And he’s right. The current space race may not be a direct response to climate crisis science, but it’s turning out to be a fantastic distraction from the actual, scientifically proven catastrophe unfolding here on Earth.

We shouldn’t be online picking out curtains for some future mansion we hope to live in one day while our studio apartment is burning down around us.

Because, if exoplanets are off the table (barring some far-future tech like quantum warping), then we don’t really have any other options. The Moon? It’s not big enough. Mars? Let’s examine that one briefly.

The red planet is uninhabitable. Despite Elon Musk’s assertion that ‘nuking’ it would kick-start the atmosphere, there’s no current technology capable of “terraforming” it to make it livable. There’s a reason why people haven’t fled the crowded streets of New York, Paris, and Bangladesh to stretch their legs in the wide-open expanses of Antarctica. Because uninhabitable means you can’t survive without accommodations that don’t occur naturally. The challenge of surviving on Mars is almost infinitely more difficult than living on Earth‘s south pole.

When we imagine these ventures, the ones where we send brave explorers off to carve out a new home for humanity (Battlestar Galactica anyone?), we’re not thinking about the billions of ‘regular people‘ who don’t have ‘the right stuff,’ to survive in the harsher-than-anything-on-our-planet reality of space.

There’s no doubt we’ll eventually set up small colonies on the Moon and Mars, but feeding and housing billions of people?

If we’re trying to preserve the species, we need to fight the climate crisis head-on. Building cosmic arks won’t save us. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/techandscience/why-migrating-to-another-planet-is-a-stupid-and-implausible-idea/ar-AAIEy0r

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How climate change primed California’s power shutdown

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© Photograph by Noah Berger/AP

Embers fly above a firefighter working to control the Delta Fire, in California's Shasta-Trinity National Forest, in 2018. The blaze had tripled in size overnight.

Update, October 11: Fires have broken out in Southern California, forcing thousands of households to evacuate. In Northern California, the fire risk is still active, but PG&E has restored power to about half of the roughly 700,000 households affected by the planned electricity outages.

California’s largest utility has turned off the power for 500,000 accounts, with 250,000 more scheduled, in an attempt to avoid setting off another catastrophic burn like 2018’s Camp Fire, which killed 85 people and displaced thousands more. About 2.5 million people in the state are likely to be affected by the power outages.

Many of California’s most devastating burns over the past few years, from the Camp Fire to 2017’s Thomas Fire, were started by sparks from power lines. PG&E, the utility that provides electricity to some 16 million people across the state, is preemptively shutting down transmission through power lines that crisscross parts of central and northern California, hoping to reduce the chances that an errant spark will start another inferno.

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On 03/10/2019 at 07:08, 6666 said:

What are people's opinions on Extinction Rebellion? Are they just a bunch of cunts?

I can understand impeding traffic as a form of protest... because it irritates a lot of people but it forces the message out.

I think the issue is... for a fucking climate protest do you really want to be forcing cars to be idling for hours? Isn't delaying all these people from where they're going while they're driving just going to mean people are burning more fossil fuels than they otherwise would have on any other day. Seems counter productive tbh.

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