RandoEFC

I hadn't seen that. I came to post this though, there have been a few murmurings that the China backing Russia situation at least isn't a worst case scenario. I'll still post it. Appears to be somewhere between 0 and 100%... Who knows what they'll do?

Does it have a name?

These kids don't have access to the same information as you and I though. They've been sent in there after being told that they're rescuing these innocent Ukrainian people from a neo-Nazi government. And their worldview is probably fucked up by all of the propaganda they've been fed throughout their lives. There have also been plenty of reports of Russian soldiers who have deserted or surrendered easily once they realised the reality is not what they've been told. These guys are doing exactly what you suggest.

Concerning behaviour and some of the comments in this thread too. Just stop and think, does Boris Johnson represent you as the leader of Great Britain? Do you agree with everything he says or does? Would you want people from other countries to think that your opinion is his opinion? And if he declared an invasion of Ireland or something and commanded the British military to start bombing and shooting the shit out of Irish people until they agreed to be a vassal state of Great Britain, would that justify other people abusing you just because you're British, even if his actions made you absolutely sick to your stomach? I've argued with DDW in this thread but he's absolutely right about the Russian army. Some of them may be willing soldiers that share Putin's worldview and his view on Ukraine. Even from this lot, most of them have probably arrived there because they've been lied to and fed state-sponsored propaganda for much of their lives. I'm sure there are some psychopaths among them that are revelling in the power at their fingertips, bombing residential blocks and train stations full of civilians. These are still the actions of individuals, which is what we should be judging, rather than an entire nation. People are upset and scared and angry at the Russian government and leader for what we're witnessing. It doesn't make it alright to tar all Russians with the same brush any more than it's ever alright to hold prejudice against other groups based on religion, race, nationality, gender, sexuality, etc., because that's what people who are picking on anything they see with a Russian flag on it are doing at the end of the day. Direct your anger and hatred toward those who are truly responsible, Vladimir Putin and his direct cronies.

This is really important. Obviously success and trophies in football are great but really, it's about being there and being a part of something collective.. That's not to say Chelsea are likely to stop being an elite side anytime soon either.

The more this goes on and the more I read about it, the more I believe in the theory that Putin has thrown rational thought out of the window and just pursued what his ego and 'Mother Russia' worldview demands. We talk about him as if he's some invincible mastermind, but he's only a man. It's hard to see how the decision to pursue this war is supposed to actually help him. All he's achieved is isolation internationally and a loss of many the benefits that keep his oligarchs happy, with no evidence of it boosting his domestic support. Instead the Russian people now face the consequences of economic hardship, lifestyle benefits like Western social media and sport, not to mention the much less trivial loss of thousands of lives already. All he gets out of this invasion is scratching the itch he's always had about Ukraine. Don't see how this ends well for him in any way. If it does spell the eventual end for him, Russia can choose between a new leader who is willing to disown Putin and rebuild bridges with Europe, or continuing down the path of total isolation that Putin has set them off on, and hope that China are willing to make themselves an ally to help ensure that the economic hardships are at least only temporary.

It's also worth mentioning that they'll have been told like the rest of the public that they're liberating the oppressed Ukrainian people from their neo-Nazi government. You could just point stuff like this out calmly and politely like nudge managed to do instead of insulting everyone who doesn't know quite as much stuff as you. Admittedly, it depends whether your ambition is actually to help others understand the things you seem to think they should understand, or whether it's to carry on being all edgy and superior about the whole thing...

In this as well, Putin's actions are a total contradiction. Years of trying to intimidate these direct neighbours into staying out of these organisations, then saying thanks but I'm going to go and fuck Ukraine up anyway. Why wouldn't you apply to join at this point if you're Georgia, Ukraine, etc? Putin's invasion of Ukraine has provided them with Exhibit A of why they need to join with the rest of Europe, after spending years using all of the intimidation, manipulation, politics, dark money, etc. at his disposal to discourage it.

Even in the modern era, your own club still attracts more "glory hunter" fans than Man City or Chelsea by orders or magnitude. I have literally never once in my life met a football fan who has changed who they support because they became more successful, be that through "legitimate" ownership or oil money ownership. It's all Facebook comment/banter page narrative. There are millions of fans we'd deem glory hunters elsewhere across the world but this is nothing to do with club ownership and everything to do with marketing. Still, these people flock more to Manchester United, Liverpool and even Arsenal more than Man City or Chelsea. Criticise the ownership, I don't think anyone can have any complaints on that front but to call genuine football fans glory hunters because of their club's ownership changing hands which is way beyond their control is daft.

What I do find a bit nutty is that Putin's "offer" to his loyalists and his people seems to be that Russia can be a proud, powerful and formidable nation but also reap the benefits of Western life that the old Soviet Union rejected. He's spent years accepting forms of integration and even using them as a tool to consolidate his power. Now that his end-game seems to be... whatever this is, the only way he can achieve it is by persisting with this war and allowing Russia to regress to an isolated country that can no longer enjoy said benefits. If you're one of Putin's oligarchs and one of the key reasons you support his Presidency is that you get to enjoy all that Europe has to offer in terms of business opportunities, sports washing and advertising opportunities, nice holidays, etc. without answering too many difficult questions at home so long as you share your riches with him, why would he retain your support if his actions now result in you losing all of those privileges that were compensation for your support in the first place? Of course, there's the small issue that the wrong move at the wrong time books you a one-way ticket to Novichok Avenue, but if he loses enough support from his inner circle, he can't just imprison all of them and carry on as if nothing has changed.

This guy needs to go. I've never been comfortable with his involvement at the club knowing the sort of background he comes from, and have been grateful that his involvement has at least wisely been kept relatively under the radar. I don't care how much of his money has kept the stadium project alive or even kept us on the right side of Financial Fair Play. I don't even care if no Usmanov means no Moshiri. The club is more than these people. I also remain convinced that I'd say the same if their money had brought us the same success that the likes of Man City and Chelsea have seen. I acknowledge that you don't know until it happens and that it's easy to say these things when it has no negative impact on your team competitively so I'm not having a dig at anyone else or trying to take some sort of moral high ground. Moshiri is no shrinking violet, but Usmanov is really a bridge too far and it says it all that all of his involvement in the club sees him remain in the shadows. Until people start asking questions and finding out stuff like this. It's vile seeing your football club associated in any way with these people, especially with what's currently going on and the increased scrutiny on these insanely rich oligarchs and their ilk.

True. And that inappropriate feeling up of that girl last winter just before he made his debut.

I mean it's probably accurate that most people on here, apart from @Bluewolf , and in fact most people that are currently alive, didn't bat an eyelid at the events of World War 2 on account of the fact that they weren't born. Just a thought.

Mazepin not banned, but doesn't he already race under a real flag? Or is that just in the F1 game? Or have I just imagined that entirely. Anyway, I'm not sure this means he has the green light to race this season still.

Hitting Putin on sport is hitting him where it hurts to be fair. I sympathise with the clubs and athletes that have done nothing wrong and I don't agree with stupid bullshit like expelling normal Russian people from other countries or universities or whatever, but I do think the sport thing is quite important. Putin obviously sees sport as something that gives him some sort of power, or being seen to be the man who brings the benefits of international sporting events to the Russian people. I'm not going to pretend to understand it inside out but if there was no power in sport, you wouldn't see billionaires from seemingly unaffiliated places across the world buying your Chelseas, Man Citys, PSGs, etc. Putin and his administration sponsored the doping that went on at the Sochi winter Olympics because they got something out of it. Look how great our country is to win all of those medals. It all plays into the Mother Russia angle. Look at that football club owned by a Russian man winning the Premier League and the Champions League. Russia has influence in these great sporting tournaments. Look at our Formula 1 race, Russia can host these elite sporting events just like all the other major countries, I've brought this to our great country and to you. See also the Champions League final which they've had taken away. These events are marks of status, otherwise you wouldn't have Russia, Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, etc. investing obscene amounts of money in bringing as many of them as possible to their shores. None of this is seismic and isn't going to bring down Putin or peel his oligarchs away from him in isolation, but the best strategy here is to try and put him down with death by a thousand cuts. Putin has consolidated his power internationally and domestically with sports-washing, by allowing his capitalist oligarch class to grow rich with the help of their dealings with the West and the wider outside world, by opening the country up to the benefits of some integration. If enough of these institutions turn their backs on Russia because of him, it does have an impact when you add it all together.

@6666 I will say though in addition with the IOC, they already pretty much banned Russia as a nationality in the various Olympics because of the state-sponsored doping scandal(s), so in that sense Russia have directly offended them in a sporting sense instead of them just trying to use the clout they have in response to the events of the past week. Still, though, if their justification for banning them from other sports is heavily or entirely dependent on the argument about the current war, it remains inconsistent unless they start doing the same to other countries.

It does open a can of worms. Like where and why do you draw a line between Roman Abramovich because of his links to Putin, and any of the Saudi or Qatari owners that have linked to the human rights-abusing regimes in those countries? Not a simple conversation once you start having it.

There are some very ignorant journalists making comments about "this is the first war in my lifetime carried out against a civilised country". The responses, quite rightly, are this meme except "civilised" and "uncivilised" instead of these captions. Needless to say, these journalists aren't the ones out there in Ukraine and other nations reporting from the front lines.

Fuck sake.

Some shift in polling there.

Thank you.

Fair enough.

This is the main sticking point for me with some of the whataboutery in this thread. People need to accept that some land in the majority of the population that get their news from what's on the television and that when stuff like Yemen and arms sales get mentioned in this thread, it's the first many have heard of it. By all means shit on the media for that but there's no need for us to be having pops at each other over it and calling people hypocrites or inconsistent for not having opinions on stuff they know little to nothing about.

Are you going to explain then?