RandoEFC

At some point you've got to stick with a manager. Arsenal's style of play has been worse under him a lot of the time but he's inherited an expensive and imbalanced squad. You've got to have some sympathy. Arsenal's major problem over the last few years has been a poor mentality and tactical ineptitude in big games. Arteta has actually done really well in those games for an inexperienced manager, even if it has been ugly at times. He hasn't exactly had a lot of time to build his own side, I think you need to give him a few transfer windows. When a manager is brought in to achieve instant results then they should be judged early on, but Arteta's job is a rebuild and he's barely been able to get started on it yet, you can't call him a failure at this point.

That's fine. The derby is probably the only time I've seen Thiago play and he was class to be fair, possibly even your best player on the day. Outside of that, you know better than me about your squad, but I do think there has to be a line where you've got first choice players, and above that you've got "absolutely key" players. For you guys, I think the absolutely key players are Alisson, Van Dijk, TAA, Robertson, Mane, Salah. Maybe Thiago is in there as well but I don't think losing him or Henderson on their own is quite as bad as losing one of those six, so that's where I'd draw the line between "absolutely key" and "important first team player" but I do agree that having Thiago, Henderson (and Keita?) all missing and having to play Jones is the same, maybe worse, as missing one of the six players I mentioned. Just my opinion but as you lot watch them every week it's not a hill I'm willing to die on.

It's not the fact it's disparaging to Richarlison, but the derby was 6 weeks ago or something now and I've reached the point where bringing it up again is only going to get an eye roll from me I'm afraid. I had three posts to respond to at once, two of them pointlessly tried to make it about Everton again so I prioritised the one that actually concentrated on making fair points, and in responding to Mike I think I more or less clarified the issue over the Henderson points that you both took issue with. I suppose the feeling sorry for yourself comment was pretty annoying and catty itself, fair enough. In my defence, from my point of view I've come and made an off hand comment about the result of a game I didn't watch and next time I login I've been quoted by all three of you and two of you were already on the front foot with the Red vs Blue turf war. Some of the stuff that followed is just uncalled for really, probably from me as well, I don't know. I'm not having MadLad telling me I'm the one in a mood or going off the rails when I've only responded to the posts that quoted me directly and tried to explain my reasoning. It's akin to that phase where people would just call each other rattled for having a different opinion to try and get the other person to have a meltdown and look stupid. I didn't say that you were wrong either, only that I disagreed with you and I wasn't bothered enough about it to have a debate, especially as we were only arguing over wording at the end of the day. It's ridiculous to me that we're even having this exchange to be honest but everything I said on the previous page is genuine and not a part of this argument. We've had about 3-4 shitty arguments since the derby and that timing isn't a coincidence, I just can't be arsed with it anymore to be honest. It's not what I log in for and I have no desire to instigate a situation where people are telling me to fuck off and giving me shit. As soon as the derby stuff gets dragged up yet again I know this is our destination, which is why next time I should just have some common sense and stay out of Liverpool threads for a while, or at least duck out when we end up on this road, which is a shame but then at least we can waste less of our time on this.

The comment wasn't aimed at either of you, or even aimed at Liverpool fans or anyone in particular. It was aimed back at people and media, some Liverpool fans, some not, and a general narrative that was formed around Liverpool's injury crisis. My point was simple "I told you so, Liverpool were going to be fine". If anything that's actually a compliment towards your team. I didn't quote or tag a single one of you in it, and I've fully explained the Henderson thing and adjusted what I originally said because @LFCMike made perfectly legitimate counter-points. That's how this forum usually works. I couldn't be less arsed about who's "right" or who "wins the argument" here. My motivation is purely wanting to be able to have a fair debate with you both again which is just getting impossible when it comes to our clubs. It's not working though is it, so I'm done here, even though I know I'll get sucked into replying again in less than 10 minutes.

Again, I'll refer you back to the thing about other members being grown-ups. You're the one who picked this argument. I've actually taken back the main thing you took issue with because I'm trying to meet halfway instead of picking a side and then trying to bait the other into "having a meltdown" by making silly comments like this one and the others I highlighted earlier. Laugh it off if you want, enough other people will. If that's how you want to act on the forum then that's absolutely fine, honestly. You're entertaining far more often than tedious like you're being now, and when you take the Liverpool/Everton axis out of it, I tend to agree with most of what you have to say on VAR and other teams and stuff. But after spending all day every day with teenagers, my appetite for getting stuck into the partisan stuff when I come on here in the evening is pretty limited personally, and that's fine too, each to their own. But the facts of this case are, I commented on something that was relevant to the thread, you and Gonzo both came back with catty, irrelevant comments about Everton, and now you're trying to make out that I'm the one who has lost his head or gone off track "like my team" or whatever it was you said. Put it this way, we've had some cracking debates on here about all sorts over the years. I'm finding it really hard to have a sensible debate with you lot lately because it keeps descending into this and it makes me not want to bother commenting in the first place, and if you're not arsed about that then fine, but I think it's a shame because where we used to have a decent balance of honest debate and also having a laugh with some banter (apart from when Cannabis started doing "always the victims" sort of things), at the moment things feel pretty toxic. And this isn't me trying to guilt trip anyone or win the argument by taking some moral high ground, it's just my take on it.

I didn't debate that, in fact I said all along that even with their injuries Liverpool are comfortable favourites for the league. You have a stronger squad than last season and nobody else is really any good this season, certainly nobody else is near consistent enough. The bits I was laughing at (and you already know this) were the bold bits making out I was having some sort of meltdown because I took issue with you calling all 6 of your absentees absolute key players, a point I've expanded on and even withdrawn in the case of Henderson in response to Mike who responded like a grown up instead of just seeing the Everton badge next to my name and spaffing a bunch of partisan nonsense and a few laughing emojis into a post because you think it'll get you validation from all the other Reds.

I'd love to live in your world sometimes. Genuinely hilarious take. Fine, every one of your injuries is an absolutely key player you can't do without as evidenced by your 3-0 win over Leicester without all of them. This is the only response so far that's actually worth replying to because you've managed to steer clear of trying to make it about Everton. But I've already said that yes, Henderson and Thiago obviously would have played ahead of Jones. I also don't doubt Henderson's quality like some people somehow still do as you'll see if you read any of my posts analysing England's midfield situation for the last 3 years of so. I just don't think that you can class every first team player as "absolutely key players". Liverpool's absolutely key players are Alisson, Van Dijk, Salah, Mane and probably the full backs. Players where you're significantly worse off without them. I think if you took Henderson, Thiago, Gomez out of the team in isolation then there isn't that big of a drop off to the players behind if they're all fit. If you're missing 3 of them in the same position and you have to play someone like Jones then yes, you could say that they all would have played ahead of him but they're not necessarily key players on their own. That's all I was trying to say but I should know better than to comment in a Liverpool thread and be surprised when I come back to 4 notifications and numerous attempts to try and have an irrelevant dig at Everton. If we have to discuss Everton then it's like if we had Sigurdsson, Doucoure and Gomes all unavailable and had to play Davies. Yes they all probably would have played ahead of him but I wouldn't go on to describe them all as absolute key players. Hopefully that clears things up. When did I say that you shouldn't be nervous? I didn't. In the Liverpool thread there were people saying shite like Liverpool are underdogs for the league now and that Leicester should be embarrassed if they lose this game. Not everyone was saying it, and it wasn't exclusively Liverpool fans, it was just a shit shout that I challenged at the time and then I've come and said I told you so because I was right. There has been a narrative during the City v Liverpool era that City have this massive advantage because of all of their £50m bench players. I'm not saying that Liverpool have that now but with Jota and Thiago coming in this season it's not like you have to live in fear of having a few injuries. It's mad how defensive you've got. My original comment wasn't even aimed at Liverpool fans specifically, just the general narrative. I've already said if you want to call Henderson a key player then I'll give you that. This isn't a hill I have any desire to die on. You're the one who replied directly to me and started bringing up Richarlison and Everton again.

Thiago has been here 5 minutes and Henderson isn't even a guaranteed starter. I'm not having "absolute key players" for both of those two. I'll let you have one of them because they would have started ahead of Jones. This is not an argument I'm at all arsed about to be honest though so have all 6 if you still need to feel sorry for yourselves, I've had my say.

Salah, Alexander-Arnold and Van Dijk are perhaps absolutely key but I'm hard pressed to think of the others. There's this narrative that Liverpool don't have much depth because the comparison is always made with Man City. The fact is, most of Liverpool's usual bench players would get into the starting lineups of almost any other team in the league. Jota is a £30-40m player, so is Keita, Matip, etc. Looking at that lineup, Curtis Jones is the only one who isn't an established senior player. Other teams have players like that playing regularly, such as James Justin on the opposition. People were saying that the title was gone, Leicester should be embarrassed if they don't beat you. Compared to the reality of the situation, reactions like that were hysterical in my opinion.

Oh look, "injury-ravaged" Liverpool actually did okay after all of that hysterical whinging. Colour me shocked.

Another draw? Seriously? I'll go to Elche this time then.

Results - Gameweek Two Casualties (9) The vast majority of players have been punished this week for a cagey start to the Bundesliga competition, with Leipzig proving to be the overwhelming favourite pick for Gameweek One and Bayern their successors this week. The champions' draw at home to Werder Bremen eliminates @RandoEFC, @Bluewolf, @Rucksackfranzose, @DeadLinesman, @Lucas, @Michael and @Storts. Also falling this week are @...Dan, as Gladbach were foiled at home by Augsburg's 88th minute equaliser, and @Eco, who pinned his hopes on Freiburg only for them to fall victim to Mainz and a first half hat trick from Jean-Philippe Mateta. You are all eliminated from this round of the competition. Consolation? Everyone eliminated here gains 1 bonus point on top of their basic score of 1 for a correct pick due to finishing joint 3rd. And as we're down to the last two already, it probably won't be long until I tag you all again for the start of the next round. Survivors (2) It's been a while since we had a true head-to-head in Last Man Standing but that's what we'll get in Gameweek Three (perhaps even longer) from @Dan and @Viva la FCB, who are the only two men left alive. A winner in the 88th minute from Aleksandar Dragovic secured their survival this week, and they will forge ahead on a level playing field having pursued an identical Leipzig-Leverkusen combo to make it this far. Congratulations chaps, please progress to make your picks for Gameweek Three. Preview - Gameweek Three For this week, you will need to pick, as usual, your match winner for the week. As we're down to two players, you also need to make the additional pick of an anytime goalscorer (this doesn't have to be from the same match as your match winner). We aren't yet in tie break territory, at this stage your chosen goalscorer will only come into play as a tie breaker in the event that you both fail to pick a match winner. Good luck.

Looks like the Everton DNA kicked in. We just can't help ourselves can we? Oh well, 3 points is 3 points.

Been at a christening but just caught up on the goals on reddit, some nice stuff, hopefully we bag a hatful and build some confidence.

I'll check this all out tomorrow but at least one person chose Leverkusen so at least we don't have to do a 15 man tie break.