nudge

Nah I'd say better let's not bring this thread back on topic

Did the feet of the poacher survive the ordeal?

I may be inclined to just drink those beers and skip the movie altogether

Depends how bad the movie is...

Ah it's a pity; I thought you had some fancy rating system there Like 8 beers in 3 hours makes the movie enjoyable

You'll have to explain your rating system to me

Joe's just taking the piss anyway...

I think you misunderstood me in terms of the fuel filter... They removed the original filter from the fuel valve prior to the fire and that's why they were under investigation! They didn't change anything after the explosion and weren't required to; the fuel system supplier actually brought in completely new valves for all teams as that fire showed the faults and defects of the previous valves and could have potentially led to more similar incidents if not changed. Have fun at the birthday party haha, not much to discuss here anymore... Besides I have a work deadline for tomorrow anyway.

Flat Earth TV

Because Lunar Overshoes...

That first link is not some dude saying what "he thinks"; it's a well researched book with references and documentation. A great read regardless of what your opinion on this whole thing is. A lot of well-documented details that are hard or even impossible to find otherwise. I'm confused with the meaning of the bolded sentence though. So just for clarification: the whole point of the fuel filter tampering allegations was the fact that Benetton removed the original filter from the fuel valve, it was alleged to speed up their fueling process and was thought to have caused that Verstappen fire in the pits. They never actually tried to hide the fact that they had the filter removed and as it turned out, other teams had written permission from the fuel system supplier to do it; this was mostly because there have been numerous previous incidents with the original valve with nozzles and leaks and whatnot and teams looked for solutions to it (removing the filter was one of them). Therefore, Benetton was found not guilty over Verstappen's pit fire and weren't given punishment for removing the filter. Yes sorry I misread the part of your post about McLaren; thought you said they were cleared off any wrongdoing completely and only Benetton were charged. So yeah, basically both teams got the same fine for delaying the data; both had illegal systems in their cars, both were deemed innocent and avoided punishment because of circumstantial evidence. Other questions you're asking are very interesting for sure, you can also add a few others such as why the FIA didn't actually punish ANY team for having illegal aids despite promising "draconian" punishments for it before the season? Why didn't Williams or any other team on the grid launch official complaint and ask for investigation if they were suspected Benetton were cheating? Why didn't Williams appeal Schumacher's title after Adelaide crash? Would Senna have beaten Schumi had he not been killed early in the season? We don't know the answers to any of those and we can speculate all we want; it doesn't make it a fact though. Senna did make allegations about other drivers/teams "cheating" prior to 1994. He was accusing David Leslie for running an illegal car in Silverstone 1983 because Leslie took pole position ahead of him haha. He used to get into fights with officials in F3 before that when he was getting being beaten by Brundle as he saw it as a big conspiracy against him whenever he wasn't winning. Martin Brundle even said himself that Senna "convinced himself that Benetton was cheating" and that turned into his weakness. Jos came out with his accusations only some 15 years later and admitted that he had no evidence for his claims; he just felt there was no way Schumacher would have been that fast while he struggled with his car. In fact he said in an earlier interview shortly after leaving Benetton that he couldn't handle the car as it was not suited to his driving style. So it just sounds like sour grapes to me; but once again as I said before I wouldn't be surprised if Benetton were up to something after all.

Yeah that's why I took my time to actually find and post reliable links to sources from well-researched books and respectable racing magazines and articles instead of just some random posts on some discussion board. "All but 4 teams" was meant in regards to fuel filter tampering (see my original post); it was based on Benetton's defense where they admitted that they have removed the filter and never even tried to hide the fact that they did and have provided a list of incidents and teams that got permission from Charlie Whiting and Intertechnique to remove it hence why they were cleared and weren't punished for Verstappen's fire in the pits. Other sources I quoted document other teams having the same or similar prohibited systems in their software and also being accused of cheating so I'm not sure why you'd say that "nothing can be found". Yes you are wrong here. Benetton, McLaren, and Ferrari were the three teams that had to hand over the data in that particular case but only Ferrari actually did it. Both Benetton and McLaren were fined for delaying it. McLaren were not cleared of any wrong doing either; it was confirmed that the gearbox control device fitted to car No. 7 (Mika Hakkinen) Marlboro McLaren Peugeot at the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix was in breach of the Formula One Technical Regulations.They escaped punishment because they convinced the FIA that they didn't "intend to infringe the regulations" and were told to remove the illegal aid but still got their 100000$ fine for failing to hand over their data on time (just like Benetton). The official FIA press release here: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-press-release-on-benetton-mclaren-hearing/919/ Same with Benetton who were found to have the LC system in their software but convinced the FIA that they never used or intended to use it. Actual official statement: "The FIA had enlisted software analysts Liverpool Data Research Associates to inspect Benetton’s source code, and ruled that “according to LDRA the best evidence is that Benetton was not using ‘launch control’ (an automatic start system) at the 1994 San Marino Grand Prix. Had the evidence proved they were, the World Motor Sport Council would have been invited to exclude them from the World Championship. Given the evidence available, such a course of action would obviously have been wrong.” (Motorsport Magazine; Page 14, September 1994). In other words both teams got away due to the presumption of innocence. I didn't mention it because it's clearly stated in that Motorsport Magazine timeline article that I posted. Of course Ferrari and Larini denied it afterwards. The same way that Benetton or McLaren or anyone else denied any wrong doing. Doesn't mean either of them were telling the truth though. The same line of defense (i.e. the systems are redundant and only used in training/practice) was also used by other teams who had the TC/LC systems in their code. Fact is, numerous teams were found to have it but not a single team - including Benetton - were found guilty of using it and none received any punishment. Besides one of the links I provided actually documents how FIA found that Ferrari used the engine rev limiter illegally and were told to remove it once it was discovered. They were also found to not have correctly adhered to the cut holes in the airbox rule after their win in Hockenheim yet that wasn't punished either (source: https://www.racefans.net/2014/07/31/1994-german-grand-prix-flashback/) Results after 1994 San Marino and pending investigation: Monaco: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Schumacher Spain: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Hill Canada: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Schumacher France: Quali: P1 Hill; Race: P1 Schumacher Silverstone: Quali: P1 Hill; Race: Hill (Schumacher disqualified) Germany: Quali: P1 Berger; Race: P1 Berger (Schumacher DNF) Hungary: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Schumacher Spa: Quali: P1 Barichello; Race: P1 Schumacher (disqualified afterwards for excessive plank wear) Monza: Quali: P1 Alesi; Race: P1 Hill (Schumacher didn't participate due to his ban) Portugal: Quali: P1 Berger; Race: P1 Hill (Schumacher still banned) Jerez: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Schumacher Japan: Quali: P1 Schumacher; Race: P1 Hill Adelaide: Well we know how that went... Anyway Mansell was P1 both in quali and the race. Overall, hardly a reduction in performance and race wins during/after the investigation and doesn't support the idea that they stopped doing whatever they've been doing prior to that. It's interesting you mention the skid block; I never disputed that ban as it was proven by scrutineering and Benetton/Schumacher received their punishment. It's also interesting that Ferrari apparently had the skid block on Berger's car worn beyond the legal limit at Hockenheim already (the first race that the 10mm skid block was introduced and the one Ferrari went on to win); unfortunately I can't find any sources online on that now so nevermind. I have all recordings of full F1 races since 1981 on my external HD... I'll give the 1989 another watch but whichever way you look at it, both Senna and Prost took each other out on two occasions in order to win the title. I respect Senna a lot as a driver; love the aggressive pushing-the-limits style but he was just as capable of dirty tricks and unsportsmanlike behaviour and put winning above everything else just like Schumacher. Anyway that's also a bit irrelevant.

The "not knowing him" comment was directed at Cannabis, not you. It's one thing to point out his on-track antics and controversies which, as you said, were being shown live and thus accessible to anyone, and a completely different thing to make completely unsubstantiated claims about him being a "despicable and horrible character" which, in fact, couldn't be farther from truth. Other teams bent the rules slightly? Where exactly do you draw the line? Which illegal aids/systems are only "slight bending of the rules" and which ones should be considered a grave offence then? Now as I said in my previous post, I don't have any doubts about Benetton using illegal systems if they could get an advantage and also get away with it. I know that there was a LC system on the car and as you said, their excuse was that it was problematic to remove and that it was disabled for the races. Now, the thing is, due to the mess of all the newly introduced changes and regulations, other teams have been doing exactly the same. It's obviously not easy to find proper reliable sources online considering the events are 25 years old and Internet wasn't that accessible, but here are some: A scanned excerpt from the book 1994: The Untold Story of a Tragic and Controversial F1 Season where it explains how banning electronic aids simply led to the teams disarming them instead of purging them completely as that was thought to potentially create unforeseen errors elsewhere: https://imgur.com/a/qQtyrDT It doesn't name all the teams but alleges it was a common practice and then mentions Williams specifically with some details. Scanned article of the Motorport Magazine (September 1994 issue) which also explains why the teams left the TC/LC in their cars instead of deleting them and along with Benetton also names Ferrari, McLaren, and Williams as other teams who had those "redundant" electronic systems in their software: https://media.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/september-1994/full/14.jpg ; https://media.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/september-1994/full/15.jpg Ferrari driver Nicola Larini (stand-in for injured Alesi) admitted to the Italian press about having TC - here's an Italian source where they mention how Larini explained his poor start in Pacific GP by saying that he forgot to activate the traction control: https://www.automoto.it/formula1/formula-1-nicola-larini-il-mediano-cacciato-da-schumacher.html Hard to find an actual primary source in English given that's it Italian originally but here's a scan of Motorsport Magazine again which briefly mentions it: https://media.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/december-2004/full/45.jpg and there's also this article which mentions Ferrari using an illegal "variable rev limiter" and being caught by FIA and being told to remove it: https://www.racefans.net/2014/04/15/schumacher-wins-traction-control-row-brews/ McLaren charged with using illegal fully automatic gearbox: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing-mclaren-face-charges-over-automatic-gearbox-benetton-choose-temporary-replacement-for-1447142.html The removal of the fuel filter was unveiled to be not done solely by Benetton after another team (Larrousse) presented the letter from Intertechnique (fuel rig provider) which confirmed the permission for filter removal procedures months prior to Benetton investigation thus leading to realisation that other teams were well aware of the practice and could have been doing the same given that most of them experienced issues with the fueling systems at some point(Ferrari, Lotus, Jordan, Arrows are being specifically mentioned here). https://www.racefans.net/2014/08/14/1994-hungarian-grand-prix-flashback/ ; https://media.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/september-1994/full/22.jpg That was my main point - the 1994 season was very messy and everyone was trying to find loopholes because essentially FIA decided to ban things they couldn't properly police, which led to a lot of grey areas that were being constantly exploited by most if not all teams. You can argue one thing just as well as you can argue the other; the problem with videos like the one you posted is that they only argue one thing while completely ignoring everything else and that's my biggest gripe with it. As I always said, I never denied that Schumacher was capable of bad unsportsmanlike decisions in the spur of the moment on the track whenever winning was concerned. But even if you disregard all the circumstances and the events leading to that final race of 1994 and say he was the only one who cheated to get the title, that's one occasion only where he could be considered to have won the title unfairly. 1997 (and 2006 to a certain degree) was complete madness; as I said I'm not disputing that; but in the end it didn't benefit him. Not much different from Senna's title in 1990 and Prost's one in 1989 then. Are both of them blatant cheats then? Especially Senna, considering his overall antics on and off track? Or did he get a free pass when he unfortunately died and became a cult legend instead? What does it have to do with cheating allegations though? Fair enough you don't like it but that's it. Tensions run high when you're racing so I don't know why people act surprised when drivers let their emotions spill over after an incident, regardless of who's fault it is. Yeah yet the video you posted and every debate I ever heard on this subject only focuses on one season which was highly chaotic and messy in the first place while completely disregarding the circumstances and 6 other titles and labeling him a "cheating champion". Anyhow, this cost me way too much time I should have rather spent working. Especially considering that it's essentially pointless anyway.

So you know him, I take it?... Nah don't think so. Really can't be arsed to have this "discussion" again, it's been going for years now. It's no secret Schumi was ruthless and always pushing the limits on track and was capable of dirty tricks in order to win at any price necessary; I don't think even his biggest fans ever denied that. 94 in Adelaide with Damon Hill and 97 in Jerez with Villeneuve as well as the qualifying incident in Monaco 06 are good examples of that. I won't dispute the 97 and 06 ones at all because they were indeed very blatant attempts to gain advantage unfairly, but both backfired completely and he didn't benefit from them one bit. Now let's take a look at the 1994 season. I love it how that video MUFC posted uses some certain facts to nicely confirm its claims yet conveniently leaves some other ones that do not fit into the narrative out. First of all, everyone who follows the sport for that long knows that all teams have always done their best to find a way around regulations and get an advantage, whether fairly or not; the general attitude was always along the lines of "it's not cheating if you don't get caught" and that's why we always had so many parts and systems deemed illegal and banned at some point. Now in that particular season such cheating was extremely rampant, and I don't doubt for one second that Benetton was one of the teams who did it but it's a bit weird that only they are being brought into the center of these allegations despite the fact that they were the only ones who actually got shafted with penalties and fines throughout the season while the others were not. What's even weirder is the fact that it's Schumacher who's being blamed for his team running allegedly illegal cars as if he was some sort of a mastermind behind that. Anyway, let's take a more detailed look at the specifics of these claims. Those fuel valves allegations - as it was found out later in that season, fuel filter tampering was done by all but 4 of the teams on the grid that year and Benetton's was only investigated because of Verstappen's car going into flames in the garage. Benetton was cleared off any cheating here. Launch/traction control - apparently was hidden somewhere in the software of the car but has never been proved to have actually been used (doesn't mean they didn't either). Meanwhile, Ferrari were caught running traction control at the Pacific GP and one of their drivers openly admitted it but they were let off the hook completely. McLaren were caught using an illegal fully automated gear shifting in Häkkinen's car but escaped without any punishment as well. Schumacher crashing into Hill in Adelaide was borderline for me but in fact Hill benefited heavily from Schumacher race bans earlier in the season - 3 of which were later deemed invalid as per the FIA's own rules - and that's the only reason he was anywhere near Schumi in Championship points in the first place. But nevermind, even if you take that one WDC from him because of the Hill incident and the allegations that Benetton had an illegal car, it's still 6 on his account that he won fair and square as the best driver all while helping build a proper team from a mess that was Ferrari and which then went on to dominate for almost a decade despite not winning a single one since the 70s. No controversies or British media narratives who always painted him as a ruthless German villain can take it away from him.

No, I don't like Rosberg one bit, but I also never tried to pass my opinion of him as a fact - not to mention that I was pretty neutral and didn't even have a strong opinion on him while he was still racing and afterwards; that is until he started spouting his populist-like clickbait worthy bile at any opportunity to whoever would listen in the last year or so. Be it any source of media or his own "vlogs" or podcasts Highly competitive adrenaline-fueled teenagers getting into a fight and throwing a few punches; what a shocker... Why would the actions of his father define him? He doesn't bare any responsibility for that and I find it quite a bit weird to judge him and paint him with the same brush because of it. Besides, Max did have enough self-control and maturity not to plant his fist into Ocon's grinning face last year after all... Jos would have eaten him alive Yeah, Zetsche, what a complete tool!

Not quite - Williams is run by Claire Williams, daughter of the legendary Frank Williams who was the founder of the team and led them to glory and numerous Constructors' and Drivers' Championships in the 80s and 90s. It went spiraling into a downfall at some point and they've been struggling for quite a while now. The guy with tons of money (Lawrence Stroll) is a Canadian billionaire and he paid sponsorship money to Williams in order for his son (Lance Stroll) to get a seat in F1 - which is actually not so uncommon in F1 and motorsports in general. Now he's one of the owners of Racing Point (former Force India) and obviously his son now drives there. Just ask @Cannabis; he's a big fan and expert on everything related to the Stroll family. Williams meanwhile still struggle extremely and are a real mess so the documentary was quite realistic there, I'd say

I'm a fan of Sauber (now named Alfa Romeo) in F1 and Porsche everywhere else. As for Mercedes, I really like Toto Wolff and Niki Lauda, not so much the team overall and can't stand the CEO of Daimler/Mercedes Benz haha. Their (road) cars are class though; always have been.

Yeah, they are only mentioned and seen in the background here and there. To be fair, I think it is a good thing as this way it was more focused on other teams and drivers rather than the usual Ferrari/Mercedes - Vettel/Hamilton wankfest.

Yes they are planning it and try to get both Ferrari and Mercedes participating this time as well (they were the only two teams that disagreed to participate in filming and give access to camera team during Season 1).

Well it was a bad incident and he had a poor run last season where he made a lot of similar mistakes a few races in a row so the criticism is understandable, it's just that they chose to portray one driver as a completely one-sided villain while only showing his teammate in a positive light as a victim that annoys me; it's not how a documentary works. In this particular example it doesn't even make sense as Max and Ricciardo are pretty good friends off-track and both speak positively about each other and their relationship.

You don't like Verstappen, we get it All I see in that video is a normal reaction of someone who's angry to have lost the race because of a racing incident. Literally the same reaction as 99% other racing drivers. Yes, Max is a hothead, yes he drives aggressively and takes some unnecessary risks, yes he's blunt and temperamental when he's pissed of, but the way this narrative has been spun (and I don't only mean the Netflix series) makes him look like a one-sided maniac villain who likes to crash into other people. I like how Toto Wolff put Rosberg in his place when the latter tried to label Max as a narcissist in his podcast in order to blow his own horn afterwards.

That is one of my biggest gripes with the series - the amount of bias is through the roof as they spin the narratives for dramatization in order to have a hero and a villain for their stories. Ricciardo/Max is one example, Ocon/Perez is another. Making Grosjean look like the village idiot all the time is the third. Worshipping Leclerc and milking his story is another one but it's not exclusive to this show... I still enjoyed the series but was disappointed with their approach in the end.

Our work here is done fellas. Another one down the rabbit hole of formula racing!

Factor 50 is good. I live in a region with similar temperatures and only use sunscreen if I spend the day at the beach; but it's definitely a good idea if you're outdoors for a while in general. Never used spray but don't think there would be much of a difference...

It's one pit crew per team (not per driver) as per F1 rules.