Dutch are Nazi remnants - Erdogan

[SirBalon]

Just now, Spike said:

I do! Because I'm arguing about the founding. I was never talking about modern USA. I have always been debating about the founding of the USA. Yes, America became an incredible mix of cultures that turned into a unique culture no matter how small or how significant, I have never denied but I have always debated that the USA was founded by the sons of colonists from Western-Europe and by the time they had founded the USA they had their own distinct culture founded on reformed Christianity, English and enlightenment.

Many French settlers lived in North America, in particular Louisiana but they weren't USA/Americans till they land was bought by Napoleon! They've been influential in the years since but they weren't a part of those men that created the nation.

Ok...  And where does that actually get us by selecting that particular detail?  What does it offer us?

[Spike]

8 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Mate... Almost the whole bloody California has Spanish towns and city names with its capitals all being Spanish names.  If that isn't a mark of other cultures having had a major effect on the whole thing then I don't know what else where the OBVIOUS stakes are.

San Diego isn't Saint James and Los Angeles isn't called The bloody Angels.  I won't even go into Texas because that's just mental.

Then why has the dominant culture their been WASP for the past two-hundred years? I'm not saying there isn't an influence but majority of the culture isn't formed on a basis of Spaniards, it's the WASP. It's insginificant but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

[Spike]

6 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Ok...  And where does that actually get us by selecting that particular detail?  What does it offer us?

Because you just don't how much the Constitution affects the American state of mind. I've lived here for nearly four years and I can tell you that what happened in 1776 oozes out in the culture of this nation, everything owes itself to that. Yeah, the Cajuns invented some nice food and talk weird even they feel the rights, liberties and freedoms the constitution bestows. I never understood it either but I've witnessed it, everything revolves around that one document.

California wouldn't be what it is today without the constitution and in turn manifest destiny. Sure it holds some roots to the Spanish but the ultimate deciding factor is the what it became, and California didn't become what it is right now because of the Spanish.

There is a lot of FInnish people in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. They have some unique cultural traits but they are still American. There are Germans in Wisconsin, the same applies to them. What I'm saying is that the Spanish were never the majority so they never formed the overarching culture of Cali or Texas, they influenced it but what it is today is because of the WASP.

[Spike]

Just like the Umayyads may have had some influence in Galicia but Galicia didn't become what it is today because of them.  Obviously the Leonese, Castillans, Galician and Portuguese Kingdoms had a far larger and longer influence, as did the Romans.

Like Louisina you can say the Iberians influenced the Romans, but you can't say they had apart in the founding of Rome. The Iberians were very important to Rome but they weren't the people that laid the founding ideals.

[SirBalon]

10 minutes ago, Spike said:

Because you just don't how much the Constitution affects the American state of mind.

Oh believe me mate, I do know!  I haven't lived there permanently but I've been there many years 7 or 8 times a year.  Obviously living in an actual country gives you an even deeper understanding.  But (I hope our American friends aren't offended by this next statement), Americans on the whole are very simple in terms of social complexities and outer border understanding which is where their biblical vision of their constitution is rooted in.  In other words, they're conditioned to be how they are.

As Salvador Dalí once said about America...  "Wonderful country and extremely interesting which is why I love to visit it.  You have New York and Los Angeles where you feel like you are in a real civilisation and from there onwards even the Africans shouldn't be embarrassed".

He actually went on to make even worse statements, but I won't even go into that.

Yeah...  The constitution is their second bible, but that doesn't exclude the fact that the culture and everything about it is a mixed kebab of all sorts.

[Panflute]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

Then what 'ethnic identities' founded America? English was the language, the men that wrote the Constitution were of dominantly English heritage (save for Jay), the were all of reformed-Christian religious backgrounds (Protestant, Anglican, Huguenot), they were all born in British America, save for Hamilton, as he was born in British Indes. So they all share a similar culture, linguistic, religious and heritage to only a few nations in a very small part of the word (western-Europe). Yes, that isn't ethnic homogeneity (but that is an impossibility, no? I retract that remark, it was poorly worded), but they all share the same cultural and philsophical identity, freedom and liberty. The constitutions is what defines America, culturally and historically, until you experience what the USA, you cannot really understand the importance of those founding fathers. The USA was not founded by Spaniards in Florida, California and Texas, it was not founded by French Louisianians, it was not founded by the Native tribes, the ground-work was laid out by majority British settlers and Dutch settlers, some Germans, some French, but the nation itself was founded by several men that shared the same ethnic, religious and cultural roots. They weren't Frenchmen, the weren't Brits, and they weren't Dutchmen anymore, they were the sons of those people, they had become something else and founded America.

You have to ask, where did they enlightened ideals come from? I'm not arguing that America was built on the back of 'one ethnicity, one goal' but it was coincidentally founded by people of very similar heritage and very similar culture. The englightened ideals are western-European, especially British, French, Dutch, German, etc. They aren't Spanish, they aren't Italian, they aren't Greek, Chinese, Japanese, Kenyan or Syrian. It is no coincidence that the few people that did create America can trace their roots back to a very small part of the world. Throughout the first 200 years of the USA and colonies they were the majority of the people and are the Dutch and English really that radically different, as opposed to the Italians and Ukranians? Or Spanish and Egyptians?

 

 

"The constitution is what defines America" ---> exactly my point. The USA is and always has been a civic nation like France, not an ethnic one like Germany was at one point. Hence why the USA from the start has been better accustomed to immigration.

[Spike]

8 minutes ago, Panflute said:

"The constitution is what defines America" ---> exactly my point. The USA is and always has been a civic nation like France, not an ethnic one like Germany was at one point. Hence why the USA from the start has been better accustomed to immigration.

So what are we debating about? I was just stating coincidentally the birth of the USA wasn't as diverse as it is now.

[Panflute]

Just now, Spike said:

So what are we debating about? I was just stating coincidentally the birth of the USA wasn't as diverse as it is now.

That America was never a nation-state, but a civic entity.

[Spike]

3 minutes ago, Panflute said:

That America was never a nation-state, but a civic entity.

You could argue that for the colonies but definitely not for what it became in 1776. I guess a lot gets lost in translation online. It's just that my history book states when the nation was born (not counting slaves) 85% were British and the rest were mainly Dutch. Just going by what I know.