Devil-Dick Willie

And here I am neck deep in mouth breathers trying to be a nice boi and put aside my Australian language to make grounded points as a basis for debate. And you go trying to wind me up. What a naughty naught boy you are. It's 11.30, so I'll depart. I will point out that since I posted my manifesto not a single person has offered any counter to it except @Gunnersaurus, who felt Southgate would have done a bit better but probably still shit in the period prior. Other than that, it's just been the basic point of 'okay we're shit but I still want us to win until we're knocked out'. Which of course you do and have every right to. And mr devil man making a list for comparisons sake but then saying 'nooooo you were supposed to compare germany to France and Italy' who aren't even the topic of discussion and are irrelevant to this conversation. I also couldn't come up with such a list because the only 4 teams who's games I tend to watch religiously are Germany, Australia, England and Hungary. Probably in that order of preference. @Spike take the night shift, use my baseline and take these fuckers to task please. If I wake up tomorrow and no Englishman has admitted their fucking dogshit team has reached 3 semis in 4 tournaments based on a fixture list that's kinder than a kindergarten teacher rather than any actual tactical or skill input, I will be sad.

I can't actually believe what I'm seeing. I offered that England had won 1 game in 6, when it came to facing opposition that was considered equal or superior by myself. You then offered a shitty list of games in which you thought Germany were equals or underdogs with the same idea. That they struggled in those circumstances too. I gave my own list, and then pointed out that in mine or yours, Germany still had a FAR better record in games as equals or underdogs. You now say 'why are you comparing them to England'. Is English that far your second language? if I offer a list of games, and you do the same literally for comparisons sake, yes, I'm going to compare them. Because that was the whole point.

Am I hallucinating? You literally said 'you don't give credit for his big knockout W' and I pointed out that I had, without qualification, done exactly that, twice. Then you ignored it in your next post. That gripe.

Oh, as for 'The Netherlands sucked in 2012 silly billy' yes I am aware of that now. At the time they were world cup finalists at their last tournament, with an elite attack still, and desperate for a win after their L in the first round. I was praying and you better believe that.

Even in your crap list the ratio is much much better than 4 losses, 1 penalties loss, 1 win. (16% wins) My list has us 11 games, 6 losses, 2 penalty wins, 4 wins.(36% wins) It doesn't take a mathematician to tell you one of those is roughly twice as good as the other. That also doesn't acknowledge other mitigating factors that improve the list, such as that Germany have a ridiculous record in shoot outs and thus a draw AET is a much better result for them than for England who have only just started winning shootouts ever. I'll leave jammy shit like that out.

Dropped your little gripe eh? Funny what happens when I drop the insults, people can't hide behind 'don't be a cunt' and have to ignore the facts being sent their way. Okay, so I suppose you silently accept I haven't at any point hidden the win against Germany. Okay your particular augment in summary is 'barely anyone is decent quality, we can't control who we face, we should be happy to still be in this tournament despite everything, because the results in future games aren't foregone conclusions'. Pretty fair summary I'd say. 1. Barely anyone is decent. True. Absolutely true. But you were bookies favorites, both for winners and top scorers. While I don't think that's fair, I know you accept that you're a much better team in theory than you have offered so far. So don't hid behind 'well we're all a bit shit in international football'. If it was truly a pot luck teams like England and Germany and Spain wouldn't qualify top of their qualification groups playing against teams like Sweden, Slovakia and Switzerland every 2 years. 2. We can't control who we play. Never said you could of course, I just want some acknowledgement that a 3/4 tournament run like this is unprecedented. It literally couldn't have happened in the past, because the old Euro format had less teams, and went straight to a top 8 where the WORST possible team left would have been a Switzerland or Turkey. 3. The fact that there is less hype and excitement is palpable. I don't expect you to be personally less excited to be in the tournament still no. All you can do at this stage is go 'fuck we suck, fuck we've been lucky, I hope tomorrow is a better day' as an optimist, or as a pessimist go 'fuck we suck, and unless god keeps offering us favors we're goners, but I have no personal preference for which each and every man choses and haven't alluded as such.

I would give Germany their group games against Portugal and Netherlands, both Ws, in 2012 considering half the shite you've offered here. Here is a genuine list of games where I watched live, thinking 'if both teams play to potential Germany will lose, or I don't know it's too close to call'. Not based on your random assessment, based on how I felt at the time Argentina 2006. Penalties W Italy 2006. L Spain 2008. L Spain 2010. L Netherlands 2012. W Italy 2012. L Brazil 2014 W Argentina 2014 W Italy 2016 W France 2016 L England 2020 L. Now whether we use your list or mine, it's much much better than 5 losses for every win now isn't it?

It's funny for a couple of reasons. 1. My biological father is German. Born in Germany. Spoke German. Adopt a brain. 2. I'd say Germany were favorites in a LOT of those games. But that's the nature of being a top 5 side, and one of the 3 most successful sides in football history. Almost every loss you're ever going to have is going to be against a team who is worse or at best, considered roughly as good. You have offered a very false equivalence. Also you'll notice Italy there a million times. Well known fact they're Germanys kryptonite.

Which is that? He has literally 0 impressive knock out wins IMO. Sweden and Senegal were what I would call par, and I keep explicitly stating that the win over Germany is his 1 silver lining. Obviously Germany were dogshit, and in the middle of 2 world cups where they were evicted at the group stage, but until this post I didn't even mention that, I just gave him the green light on it in multiple posts so don't you dare say I've 'kind of excluded it' when in 2 posts I stated it specifically.

Why why and why? You only didn't suffer the exact same fate (twice) you suffered against Iceland this very tournament due to a moment of brilliance that didn't eventuate against Iceland. Same goes for last Euro against Denmark. I don't think England have improved at all since 2016, and that was their lowest moment. Getting evicted from the 2014 world cup in the group stage without a win, then losing in the first knock out to Iceland by a goal. That is genuinely the level I think you're playing at now, except with a MUCH better team in many positions. I think the miraculous run of fixtures have papered over the cracks wildly. You have a better team now than then, but have embarrassed yourselves literally every game this tournament, rode your miraculous comeback goals to suspect victories, and are in another Semi final (yay) but as @The Palace Fan said, it doesn't feel quite the same to many, and I think that's because as I said even before @The Palace Fan mentioned it, You know how this ends this time. The hope that 'oh my god we have played awfully but just need 2 results against decent teams and we're winners' isn't as exciting a thought as it was 6 and 4 years ago, because you have no reason to believe that it will happen.

Here is a collective and plain chain of logic, that has no insults and isn't aimed at any other members. England, for the last 8 years have been outrageously lucky to reach the semis on such a consistent basis for the following reasons. You have lost 5 out of your 6 games against other top 12 opposition. You have required significant luck against far worse teams than yourself such as Denmark, Slovakia, Switzerland and Colombia in knock out rounds. These aren't minnows (bar Slovakia who were projected as a bottom 4 team this comp) but they were all teams you'd expect to beat somewhere between well, and comfortably. The 1 tournament you played a real top 4 contender for that trophy, prior to the semis, was 2022 world cup, where you were bundled out by France in the quarters. Which is particularly interesting, because I would state, and I think many would agree, that is actually the best tournament you had under Southgate. You won your group comfortably, you beat Senegal 3-0 in the round of 16, and you pushed a strong French team hard. If you are playing football that deserves to reach the semi finals of big tournaments under Southgate's management, what is it that makes you think he'd have beaten Germany in 2010, Italy in 2012, or that you'd escape the group stage of 2014 against Uruguay and Italy? I don't think he'd have done any better at all. When you combine these elements, you get the result I have come to. You are riding a streak of ungodly tournament luck, that a team like France, Spain or even Belgium would have converted into a tournament victory. But despite being graced with kindness in terms of fixtures, and more recently even graced with miracle comebacks against worse teams in the final minutes of games, you have won nothing, and would have been far better off with a different manager, playing better football under the same circumstances. Thus, I don't think you're playing effective football at all. The ends and means are separate entities. England could get the same or similar results with just about any league 1 coach given the same fixtures. Possibly better in some cases.

This coming from someone who never formulates real arguments. Ever. You make a point, I counter with my own, and you go 'well I don't feel the same' and pretend I didn't just offer a valid criticism.

Okay, I apologize. You're absolutely right. I'll delete the shitty part. Now counter my point. Tell me about the effective football that has seen you lose to Croatia, Italy, Belgium x2, France, but beat Germany. The effective football that requires never before seen consistent feats of luck that include injury time winners against Tunisia, an extra time dive against Denmark that was never a pen, an injury time worldie against Slovakia, An 80th minute worldie against the swiss, and your first ever penalty shootout victory against mighty mighty *checks notes*... Columbia?

Oh no, the english are chad and I am soy! What an awful day. Because it's true. It's undeniable. In fact, it's widely accepted until you make the argument that England aren't getting good results, at which point they all point to the piece of paper that says 'semi finalists' on it and won't budge for some reason.

Because you played knock out games against Columbia, Sweden, Denmark, Ukraine, Senegal, Slovakia and Switzerland. There is no nation on earth that would trade your draws in 2018, 2020 and 2024. None. Zip. You play (barely) winning football against mediocre teams and are eaten alive by good ones. As I already elaborated on earlier. You have a 1 and 5 record in 6 games against real decent sides. But sure, you make Semis... because you can beat Slovakia and Denmark AET and Colombia and Switzerland on pens.

This is the elephant in the room, the monster under the bed, and the fart in the elevator all at once though. YOU AREN'T GETTING RESULTS. Flash back to WC 2014. You think a Southgate side who plays southgate football gets out of that group? Brother you just got a miracle from Portugal VS Georgia so you could play slovakia instead of the netherlands... then you got your cheeks clapped by fucking slovakia, and should have lost, but you didn't. Then you should have lost to switzerland, and were bailed out again. Can we all stop living in crazy world where England are this effective football machine that makes semis on the reg because they're sacrificing good football for results? Because you aren't. You suck AND are playing shit football. But for some reason the computer + jesus have collaborated and decided you don't have to play anyone harder than Ukraine until the semis for a 10 year period.

I think it's a special case for a few reasons. 1, as my compatriot in crime said already, this is an English forum. 2, everyone has (mistakenly) sucked the knob of this england team for being a stacked jacked and ready to attack thick and rich best squad in the world side. They're wrong and Phil's bald head, but the reason they're wrong is the back 5 of England is somewhere between mid and solid. The midfield is somewhere between mid and solid, and your attack is bananas. Yet you're playing like a team who has a god tier midfield and defense with nobodies up top, rather than vice versa. The natural way to play with this side is to set up to outscore the opponent. Who cares if Prickford has an oopsie, or Guehi is found out here and there if you're aiming to score 3 goals per game. Finally, I think for a team like Austria or Turkey or Switzerland (all of whom played FAR more enterprising football across the tournament) you'd forgive them for being organized and pragmatic. When you're a top 3 favorite you should be stamping your authority, not scraping past Slovakia AET.

"oh but our negative anti ball was the best way to win". Here is a list of tournament games you have played against real, actual decent teams, who you would say England were not favorites in, as the game was either a coinflip or England slight or major underdogs. Belgium - L Croatia - L Belgium - L Germany - W Italy - L France - L Wow. Some fucking real effective football. Really striving to win tournaments with that aren't we? Good shit Southgate well done mate, sacrificing football for results, and THOSE are the results? Spike is right I'd rather watch a team that's gonna Arsehole Slovakia 4-1, Switzerland 3-2, and Lose 4-2 to a top team every time if those are the results pragmatism is gonna bring me.

Here's the problem you're going to face though. When you get knocked out by the Dutch, or possibly in the final, the rest of the world is once again, just like the 2018 WC and 2020 Euros, going to remember you for being jammy shithouse gits who made it way further than they should based on a lucky draw, who embarrassed themselves at every opportunity and won fuck all. Then, Southgate will be gone, and his total legacy will be 'the guy who's team had the most incredible luck in history and still won fuck all'. That's the reality. On paper it looks much better than it is, and when you look back at this 8 year, 4 tournament period you will wish you had ANYONE else coaching Harry Kane, Phil Foden, Jack Grealish and Bukayo Saka during the peaks of their careers.

I remember how frenzied England fans were in 2018 and 2020, honestly I think the only reason they're not jumping up and down doing the Poznan now is they know how this ends. In 2018 and 2020 there was genuine hope. 'All we have to do is beat Croatia, and we're in the final and anything can happen, or oh hey we're in the final against Italy, anything can happen' and on both occasions (and in 2022) England folded at the first real resistance they faced. This time around we're not subject to the 'It's coming home' rhetoric because everyone has been pavlovian conditioned to know how this ends. At some point England will face a competent team with stars in most positions, and they will lose the game and the tournament. It's just a matter of time. Barely scraping past Slovakia and Switzerland is fine if you can believe you're still in it to win it. The English fans now know better than that. They're here to play gash footy and make up the numbers until the Netherlands or Spain bundle them out with an economy of effort.

God there is no fucking justice in the world is there?

Penalty incident is a bit gross, but Fullkrug was offside so it doesn't matter. Hated it watching it live though because what VAR do and don't rule on and the handball rule always seem to be changing and it always seems to be me getting fucked by it hahaha. Best tournament for Germany since 2016. Shame the 2 best teams had to play so early while England get infinity games against nations you couldn't point to on a map.

I genuinely prefer Italys squad to Englands. But yeah, they were limp af. They're a team who needs to play niggly, controlled football. They were poor start to finish, just jogging about aimlessly.

It's mind boggling isn't it?

Just wait til you find out that there's a million better singers than Sabrina Carpenter, Dua Lipa, Taylor swift and the like, but they don't have wealthy parents and or aren't conventionally attractive.