The Artful Dodger

Flanagan and Downing are not treated like golden boys by our media. You're a protected club, always have been. Hopefully people see what I've been saying for years now.

I'm not sure exactly what this means, they want us to go and get tested but we're not obliged? If it means there's a better chance of us getting the pubs back open for Christmas then i'll be forcing my neighbours down there.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54791144 Giggs has form for this, nobody seems to remember but it was in the papers about him punching his girlfriend in the 1990s. The Manchester United PR machine is so good that it's basically been forgotten. Nicky Butt, Andy Cole too. Is there a culture of wife beating at Old Trafford?

They’d be foolish to get rid of Guardiola, whatever they they do this season.

This is very true. These are incredibly tough decisions to make but have to made, our government prevaricated on everything and tired to go down a middle path of both worlds, leaving us in a terrible situation where we have a high death toll and countless lives set to be ruined by the financial catastrophe that is round the corner. Tell you what, prior to this all I was getting restless in my current job but I’m extremely grateful to have it now, fairly secure and shouldn’t be at risk from all this, at least not immediately. It’s very bleak. I still don’t think our government really have a plan.

Who is poking who? It seems to be that certain people believe they deserve more protection than any other. You should be secure in your beliefs, unless there is something more sinister about Islam that I’m missing? I say this as someone who wants to avoid what I think we can all see is coming. We need Muslim communities to give over with mealy mouthed statement and stop trying to qualify beheading other human beings with ‘well but he did show a cartoon’..... Otherwise you know what will happen and it won’t be pretty.

It just seems to me that the right-wing of Labour cannot tolerate the left, but everyone accuses the left of being intolerant. During in the Blair years, which are as right-wing as Labour has ever been, stalwart left wing MPs like Corbyn, McDonnel and Skinner stayed in the party, despite disagreeing with a lot of what went on, they fought for Labour. When the left get in, loads of MPs leave and then some actively campaign for the Tories (words cannot describe how much I detest Ian Austin). The narrative is the wrong way round.

I agree with all this, anti-Muslim bigotry is a problem that needs to be combatted and Western countries behave largely against the interests of their own citizens at times. I think we need to deal with things on local level and international level. We need condemnation and resolute defiance from all sections in France, but a move to disengage from the middle east all round.

The issue is, without Corbyn do you get a regression to Blair type Labour? If so, then there's no point in having a Labour party at all.

Starmer has shot himself in the foot by his naked aggression towards the left of the party, sure they may not be able to deliver a majority but they tend to be the people who knock on doors and get voters out. Don't see that happening now, unless he drastically changes his lane. In seats they need to win they'll be relying on the flat bloated right-wing Labour.

Labour should be ok to retain the seats they have even with this, they may see a drop of support in Liverpool and London but they'll be so safe Labour that they'll win anyway.

I don't think so, it's supposed to be resolutely non-religious. That can take the form of aggressively anti-religion, crucifixes are also banned, effecting a lot of people. I'm absolutely amazed you are tacitly trying to say that France is to blame for what has happened. Wow, we're going to hell in a hand cart if supposed liberals won't even stand up and say no, fundamentalist Islam is not welcome here. If you won't see now what an issue this is then you never wiill. That's your view, but it's not widely held. Facial recognition is a large part of being a human being. Just as we ban people from wearing balaclavas in certain areas it is ok to restrict face coverings of all types in certain areas. Again, I don't support a blanket ban but certainly in court, banks etc I agree.

All true on a Macro level, won't find many bigger critics of Western foreign policy than me. But I don't think this is the time. People have been beheaded in the street, for no other reason than they satirised someone in Islam. This cannot be traced back to France's actions, this about fundamentalist Islam and what seems to be the acceptance of these values by moderate Muslims. Nobody should be protesting at a school about being taught things. I don't want to sound alarmist but there are certain principles you have to accept if you live a country. This is deeply worrying that people will not tolerate people taking the mick out of them. It's a miserable, sour existence and has no place anywhere as far as I'm concerned.

I don't get your point, the reason France is so stringent (overly so in my view) is because it is is so aggressively secular. There are pros and cons to that, but I'm aghast that people can be talking about why France is so bad when people have been beheaded in the street. On face coverings, I don't get why anyone would want to live in a society where people can't see each other in a public area. It's why masks are troubling for people.

I'm not sure that is the case. France is perhaps the most fiercely secular country in the world, it stems from the revolution and the ideas espoused in it. At the time it was seen as being horribly atheistic, and it was fiercely anti-Catholic, or certainly some elements were. To be French for many is to completely exclude religion, it is irrelevant to being citizen and is something to be practised only in private. The Hijab is not banned, only complete face coverings in public space. I do think this is bad law, although I do support in certain public spaces, and France should rethink it. But to paint out France as the bad guy in this absurd.

I'm not sure that's right, the protests are not justified at all. Whilst I wouldn't want to ban anyone peacefully protesting, it is not provocative to criticise and yes, take the mick out of people's belief systems. We should not extend extra sympathy or protection to Muslims because they seem to be unable to accept that people don't agree with them and lampoon their beliefs, like they do anyone. This is a crucial moment now, I think even liberals need to stand up and be counted. Fundamentalist Islam and terrorists should not be conflated with all Muslims, it's wrong and dangerous. However, we should not accept this attitude that the outrage about people drawing cartoons is somehow justified. It is not and never will, it's babyish, stupid and should be fiercely opposed.

The right to ridicule the beliefs of others is an absolute foundation stone of any liberal country. Satirising Mohammad is not 'hate speech' or 'racism', people from all communities should accept this or we're in for big problems.

It boils down to the fact that Labour shouldn't be one party. I maintain that the left of the party is not this intolerant mass that people think it is, in fact it is the centre or right of the party who cannot tolerate the left and always make moves to oust them from it. See the 1930s/1980s and now. I'm trying to put in perspective, he's not lost me completely but if Ian Austin rejoins (a man who actively campaigned for the Tories in the last election) then I won't be able to vote Labour. I vote Green in the council elections anyway, they're the only viable alternative to Labour here.

Don't agree, if you someone is accusing you of being a racist bigot you have a right to defend yourself. The judgment is there for all to see, people can make their own decisions. Starmer had done this for purely political reasons, he's sending out a message to the right-wing 'this is your party again now'. Corbyn was a poor, stupid leader but suspending him isn't right.

If labour becomes the party of Ian Austin again, I'm done.

Horrific beheadings in France, again. This is going to come to a head soon (no pun intended), people are not going to tolerate people being slain in such gruesome fashion by Islamic fascists, the people protesting about that teacher drawing cartoons of Mohammed are part of the problem here.

Liverpool cases are dropping, how much that is to do with the measures or whether the virus had reached it's max level here is not clear. The issue is that it's gone through the young and into older communities, where it's often more serious. I think a national lockdown is pretty much inevitable, but it could have been done a couple of weeks ago. This slowly shutting down anywhere but London is madness.

‘At times..’?

London and the South East are the priority, that's very clear. As soon as London went into Tier 2, guess what there is financial help available for them? Not when Liverpool and Manchester were there though. It's a joke and shows how much we need a federal England. There is no way on earth London would be in a lockdown by itself, this is why we're seeing this farce of every other city being put in tier 3. It's all to protect London. London was the hotspot at the start of this, would never ever haven been locked down. When will the North realise that the south is laughing at them.

Your last paragraph sums up how I feel. This is all about making ourselves feel like we can control something uncontrollable. It’s telling that it is us in the West who having the hardest time with this. We are used to having everything under control, this is something we are not used to. A reminder that the world is not subject to us and that there are dangers out there.