F1 2024 - USA GP - Friday 18th - Sunday 20th October

[MUFC]

38 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Am I the only one looking at that and thinking Max dive bombs Norris from behind and forces him off the track? He's the king of just about getting away with things. Same with how he's stayed ahead of Sainz without question despite taking an off-track detour to Mexico and back.

Ferrari's look quick. Mercedes looks horrific. 3 years and they still can't get a handle on the behaviour of their car.

@MUFC

[MUFC]

Norris catching Max at the moment.

[MUFC]

Fuck off Max you pushed him off!!!

[MUFC]

Lando.

Track limits.

[RandoEFC+]

Norris gets a 5 second penalty for getting charged off the track by Max . He literally can't come out the wrong side of a stewards decision.

I think that's outrageous. Apparently you can get overtaken on the straight, brake however late it takes to force both you and your rival off track, and you either get given the position back or your rival gets a 5 second penalty for not giving it back. They need to sort this out.

[MUFC]

He's a fucking cunt who continues to get away with these things.

[RandoEFC+]

Also see Lap 1 where Max and Sainz go off the track together because Sainz braked too late. Max returned to the track and stayed ahead so why isn't it a 5 second penalty?

It's a shame because it was a clinic in defensive driving from him but he always has to ruin it by not admitting defeat. He did this to Hamilton about 4 times in 2 races when they were competing for the title. Turned the entire Saudi GP into a farce that year and charged about 20 metres off the track trying to keep Hamilton behind in Brazil if I remember correctly. They should have dealt with him then. For the way he pushes the boundaries I'd love to see how long ago he was last hit with a penalty and how many penalty points he has.

[Tommy]

Charles.  Forza Ferrari! 

[Panflute]

Fact is McLaren took a huge risk by not giving back the position and trying again. Norris was very clearly not ahead at the apex, and he was also on the outside of the track, in which case I'm not even sure that rule is wholly relevant. I also reviewed the footage a couple of times but I can't actually tell whether Max was fully out of track limits with 4 wheels.

In any case, another fumble by Norris. McLaren can whine about Verstappen all they want, but the fact remains that Norris once again had the faster car and didn't make it count. A clear pace and tire advantage and yet he got schooled.

Edited October 20 by Panflute

[RandoEFC+]

6 hours ago, Panflute said:

Fact is McLaren took a huge risk by not giving back the position and trying again. Norris was very clearly not ahead at the apex, and he was also on the outside of the track, in which case I'm not even sure that rule is wholly relevant. I also reviewed the footage a couple of times but I can't actually tell whether Max was fully out of track limits with 4 wheels.

In any case, another fumble by Norris. McLaren can whine about Verstappen all they want, but the fact remains that Norris once again had the faster car and didn't make it count. A clear pace and tire advantage and yet he got schooled.

There was no point in trying again because Verstappen is impossible to overtake because Norris could be 100m ahead going into the braking zone and Max will just launch his car at the apex, force them both off and the stewards will go derp that's a 15 second penalty for Norris.

What Norris should have done was illegally overtaken Max off the track much earlier, taken the penalty and given himself more laps to build a 5 second gap and keep the position because this is what's rewarded in F1 by another flawed rule.

McLaren was not "clearly faster" than Red Bull either this weekend. It's not a fumble. Norris wasn't perfect in that battle. Everything else Max did was good racing but it's objectively ridiculous that you can brake so late that you don't make the corner and force off a competitor and then it's on them to return the position. There's absolutely no skill in what Verstappen did in that moment and about half a dozen drivers got penalties for less throughout the sprint and race.

As an F1 fan I just want to see good racing and I knew as soon as Norris was clearly going to catch Verstappen that Max was going to do something to make it not a clean battle and lo and behold he did. This isn't coming from a Norris fan boy or a Verstappen hater either. Yes I would prefer a close title battle and for Norris to sneak it but I said the same about Verstappen's driving back in 2021 when I wanted him to win it over Hamilton.

[RandoEFC+]

...

[MUFC]

Straight away I was thinking give the place back because Max rarely gets punished. I was saying to my brother straight away that he should do what Max did to Lewis in Saudi. Give him the place back just before the long straight where there is DRS. This way he can stay close and maybe take him. I was saying through the race that if he wanted to take him on the long straight he needed to be half a second at least half a second before that straight. His bet chance was actually a few laps before the incident. He could have been on the long straight with DRS and around 0.300 behind. But he messed up with a shit exit.

Truth is we want a battle a battle but Norris won't be able to do this because yet again his start cost him. Sadly this has been his achilleas heel nearly all of the season. Plus at the start maybe he could have been rougher, but this is difficult to do when you're chasing in the title as there is too much to lose with a DNF risk or car damage.

Could the Lewis move to Ferrari be a masterstroke if they can keep this up into next season?

[MUFC]

Only chance of a good title showdown is if Max has a DNF. Problem is that Ferrari look strong and Merc pull a rabbit out of the hat now and then. 

[RandoEFC+]

28 minutes ago, MUFC said:

Straight away I was thinking give the place back because Max rarely gets punished. I was saying to my brother straight away that he should do what Max did to Lewis in Saudi. Give him the place back just before the long straight where there is DRS. This way he can stay close and maybe take him. I was saying through the race that if he wanted to take him on the long straight he needed to be half a second at least half a second before that straight. His bet chance was actually a few laps before the incident. He could have been on the long straight with DRS and around 0.300 behind. But he messed up with a shit exit.

Truth is we want a battle a battle but Norris won't be able to do this because yet again his start cost him. Sadly this has been his achilleas heel nearly all of the season. Plus at the start maybe he could have been rougher, but this is difficult to do when you're chasing in the title as there is too much to lose with a DNF risk or car damage.

Could the Lewis move to Ferrari be a masterstroke if they can keep this up into next season?

I also think this idea that Max can get away with pushing him off at the start is a farce as well. If Max can't keep at least 2 of his wheels on the track in that move then it's an illegal move. People say "it's lap one, turn one" but if he was 12th and he steamed into the first corner like that he'd lose a corner of his car and be out of the race. Hamilton did a start like that way back in 2008 where he just braked as late as he needed to to get on the inside of Raikkonen, went off but took Raikkonen with him. He got a drive-through penalty for it and rightly so. I'm not saying this is what went through Verstappen's head but he was probably perfectly happy to drop behind the Ferraris as long as he took his title rival down the standings with him. Norris needs to be stronger but we saw this happen to Hamilton, who is one of the best of all time, back in 2021, whenever he went wheel to wheel with Max in the closing stages of the season, because Max will throw his car in anywhere outside of the usual "rules of engagement" and doesn't get punished for it. Hamilton didn't know how to handle it and nor does Norris.

Norris has made his mistakes throughout the season and that is one of a combination of issues that has stopped him winning the championship (probably) along with some bad luck and some poor decisions from McLaren. There's a few things to criticise about Lando but I think a lot of people are very harsh on him as well. People make out that he's had some sort of rocket-ship since Miami. They've had the fastest car on average and he/they should have got more points but some people make out as if he's had a half second car advantage for all of that time like Red Bull did before then. He needs to learn from it though. And if the championship goes begging with a race or two to go, if I was him I'd find an opportunity in one of the dead rubbers to punt Max off the track next time they go wheel to wheel just to show that if they have to go head to head next season, he's willing to get down and dirty as well.

The Ferrari boost has made for some great and unpredictable races in the back end of the season. Leclerc is doing a good job of showing control and consistency. I don't have much hope for Mercedes properly joining the battle next year but it could be a mammoth scrap between Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull. The ideal competitive balance is Red Bull having the 3rd best car but Verstappen has the benefit of being a clear number one driver while Leclerc/Hamilton and Norris/Piastri take points off each other. Could be a serious five-way battle for the title.

[MUFC]

7 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I also think this idea that Max can get away with pushing him off at the start is a farce as well. If Max can't keep at least 2 of his wheels on the track in that move then it's an illegal move. People say "it's lap one, turn one" but if he was 12th and he steamed into the first corner like that he'd lose a corner of his car and be out of the race. Hamilton did a start like that way back in 2008 where he just braked as late as he needed to to get on the inside of Raikkonen, went off but took Raikkonen with him. He got a drive-through penalty for it and rightly so. I'm not saying this is what went through Verstappen's head but he was probably perfectly happy to drop behind the Ferraris as long as he took his title rival down the standings with him. Norris needs to be stronger but we saw this happen to Hamilton, who is one of the best of all time, back in 2021, whenever he went wheel to wheel with Max in the closing stages of the season, because Max will throw his car in anywhere outside of the usual "rules of engagement" and doesn't get punished for it. Hamilton didn't know how to handle it and nor does Norris.

Norris has made his mistakes throughout the season and that is one of a combination of issues that has stopped him winning the championship (probably) along with some bad luck and some poor decisions from McLaren. There's a few things to criticise about Lando but I think a lot of people are very harsh on him as well. People make out that he's had some sort of rocket-ship since Miami. They've had the fastest car on average and he/they should have got more points but some people make out as if he's had a half second car advantage for all of that time like Red Bull did before then. He needs to learn from it though. And if the championship goes begging with a race or two to go, if I was him I'd find an opportunity in one of the dead rubbers to punt Max off the track next time they go wheel to wheel just to show that if they have to go head to head next season, he's willing to get down and dirty as well.

The Ferrari boost has made for some great and unpredictable races in the back end of the season. Leclerc is doing a good job of showing control and consistency. I don't have much hope for Mercedes properly joining the battle next year but it could be a mammoth scrap between Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull. The ideal competitive balance is Red Bull having the 3rd best car but Verstappen has the benefit of being a clear number one driver while Leclerc/Hamilton and Norris/Piastri take points off each other. Could be a serious five-way battle for the title.

I think the problem Norris has and Lewis had in 2021 is that they were behind. This means they can't take risks because Max won't give a shit if they both DNF as he is leading. On one hand we can say Norris should have been more ruthless at the starts but the other issue is that a DNF or car damage will hurt him and not Max. You're right about McLarens decisions, Italy was a screw up on their side. 

Just a shame that McLaren weren't competitive from the start of the season. Next season could be a real classic like it was from 2007 for a few years.

[RandoEFC+]

2 minutes ago, MUFC said:

I think the problem Norris has and Lewis had in 2021 is that they were behind. This means they can't take risks because Max won't give a shit if they both DNF as he is leading. On one hand we can say Norris should have been more ruthless at the starts but the other issue is that a DNF or car damage will hurt him and not Max. You're right about McLarens decisions, Italy was a screw up on their side. 

Just a shame that McLaren weren't competitive from the start of the season. Next season could be a real classic like it was from 2007 for a few years.

This is true. It would be interesting to see how Verstappen behaved as the pursuer in a title race and he was certainly a bit less gung-ho in the early stages of 2022 when it looked like it would be a season-long battle between him and Leclerc.

McLaren have made plenty of mistakes though. Bad pit-stop decisions and wrong tyres at Silverstone after Norris had overtaken Verstappen and both Mercedes on track to take the lead. Got themselves into a complete mess in Hungary and should have allowed Norris the win for the championship points. Should have reversed the cars in Italy as well although I do have some sympathy with them getting caught out by Leclerc's one-stop as nobody expected him to be able to do that. There's other mistakes on McLaren's side as well. Red Bull don't make the same mistakes very often but it's easier for them to do so when they're effectively running a one-car team and Perez is never close enough to him to make their decision-making slightly awkward.

[Panflute]

3 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

There was no point in trying again because Verstappen is impossible to overtake because Norris could be 100m ahead going into the braking zone and Max will just launch his car at the apex, force them both off and the stewards will go derp that's a 15 second penalty for Norris.

What Norris should have done was illegally overtaken Max off the track much earlier, taken the penalty and given himself more laps to build a 5 second gap and keep the position because this is what's rewarded in F1 by another flawed rule.

McLaren was not "clearly faster" than Red Bull either this weekend. It's not a fumble. Norris wasn't perfect in that battle. Everything else Max did was good racing but it's objectively ridiculous that you can brake so late that you don't make the corner and force off a competitor and then it's on them to return the position. There's absolutely no skill in what Verstappen did in that moment and about half a dozen drivers got penalties for less throughout the sprint and race.

As an F1 fan I just want to see good racing and I knew as soon as Norris was clearly going to catch Verstappen that Max was going to do something to make it not a clean battle and lo and behold he did. This isn't coming from a Norris fan boy or a Verstappen hater either. Yes I would prefer a close title battle and for Norris to sneak it but I said the same about Verstappen's driving back in 2021 when I wanted him to win it over Hamilton.

It is indeed a flawed rule, and the 'ahead of the apex' rule really needs to be looked at, and/or account for whether the driver ahead has a reasonable chance of making the corner. But as it stands, that is the way the rule is applied and Verstappen continues to exploit it. He effectively baited Norris into it. Norris should indeed have done it earlier and fight an exploit with an exploit. But he didn't. Max didn't make it 'not a clean battle'. He knew what he was doing within the rules. It was on the limit, but not over it.

Also not sure what similar situations there were where the driver did the same thing as Max and got penalized. People point towards the Russell-Bottas incident, but that was an entirely different situation. The only argument you could make is that Max should've gotten penalized for running Sainz wide on T1, but as we all know drivers tend to get a bit more leeway for first lap tomfoolery.

McLaren was clearly faster on the hard compound. At one point Norris was pulling a second a lap on Verstappen. Then Norris spent like 10 laps following Verstappen in dirty air, and by the time he got by, he still managed to pull a 4-second gap in 3 laps. If that isn't clear overspeed, I don't know what is.

However, the real fumble was on McLaren as a team. F1TV commentators unanimously agreed immediately that Norris would get penalized if he didn't give the place back. From what I read, it was the same on Sky. This was before the actual penalty was issued. So if they all saw it, for McLaren to bluff was obviously the wrong call. Maybe they banked on Norris being able to pull a 5-second gap, which was ambitious, but that penalty might also have been 10 seconds had the stewards also given Norris another track limits violation (which they wisely didn't). So yeah, I consider it a failure on McLaren's part to properly coach their driver during the race. Not sure if Norris would've been given another chance to overtake, but given the speed advantage and the fact Max might've cooked his tires with that last defensive maneuver, it was still better than risking what many commentators considered a slamdunk penalty.

Edited October 21 by Panflute

[RandoEFC+]

44 minutes ago, Panflute said:

It is indeed a flawed rule, and the 'ahead of the apex' rule really needs to be looked at, and/or account for whether the driver ahead has a reasonable chance of making the corner. But as it stands, that is the way the rule is applied and Verstappen continues to exploit it. He effectively baited Norris into it. Norris should indeed have done it earlier and fight an exploit with an exploit. But he didn't. Max didn't make it 'not a clean battle'. He knew what he was doing within the rules. It was on the limit, but not over it.

Also not sure what similar situations there were where the driver did the same thing as Max and got penalized. People point towards the Russell-Bottas incident, but that was an entirely different situation. The only argument you could make is that Max should've gotten penalized for running Sainz wide on T1, but as we all know drivers tend to get a bit more leeway for first lap tomfoolery.

McLaren was clearly faster on the hard compound. At one point Norris was pulling a second a lap on Verstappen. Then Norris spent like 10 laps following Verstappen in dirty air, and by the time he got by, he still managed to pull a 4-second gap in 3 laps. If that isn't clear overspeed, I don't know what is.

However, the real fumble was on McLaren as a team. F1TV commentators unanimously agreed immediately that Norris would get penalized if he didn't give the place back. From what I read, it was the same on Sky. This was before the actual penalty was issued. So if they all saw it, for McLaren to bluff was obviously the wrong call. Maybe they banked on Norris being able to pull a 5-second gap, which was ambitious, but that penalty might also have been 10 seconds had the stewards also given Norris another track limits violation (which they wisely didn't). So yeah, I consider it a failure on McLaren's part to properly coach their driver during the race. Not sure if Norris would've been given another chance to overtake, but given the speed advantage and the fact Max might've cooked his tires with that last defensive maneuver, it was still better than risking what many commentators considered a slamdunk penalty.

I'm still of the school of thought that most of the drivers have some sort of "gentleman's limit". Plenty of drivers force their rivals to the outside and then run them out of track whilst keeping their own car within the white lines. It's all opinions but I think exploiting a rule in that fashion is over the limit even if, by the letter of the law, he might get away with it. I think the same when drivers cynically do an illegal overtake and try to build a 5-second gap when they should give the position back in a fair world. I think the FIA's experiment of "let the teams deal with it" has failed. If you do an illegal overtake you should either be asked to give it back or be informed that you'll get a post-race time penalty equal to the gap between you and the driver you illegally passed, with an extra 5 seconds added on top.

The first lap battle between Sainz and Verstappen, in my opinion, was a clear one on one between two guys. If the stewards have dismissed this as "it's lap one" then I find that very disappointing because the same action could have happened at any point in the race and wasn't prompted by the nature of turn one being quite chaotic and many cars going 3-4 abreast.

McLaren definitely could have done better. Between the incident and T1 the next lap, Norris was clearly driving in a way where he was uncertain whether to let Max back through or not. That may even have been the difference between him not getting a 5-second gap. I think Norris' instinct was that he'd probably have to give the place back but the team told him to hold onto the position probably thinking that it took Norris so long to get his nose in front already, he probably wouldn't get another great chance in the last 5 laps. Hindsight is 50/50 but yes, it's another example of McLaren not quite finding their feet in these situations as a front-running team with pressure and expectation. I'd hope from their perspective that they do a review of their race-day management and decision making over the winter, because chances are they'll have a championship-challenging package next season.

[Panflute]

19 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I'm still of the school of thought that most of the drivers have some sort of "gentleman's limit". Plenty of drivers force their rivals to the outside and then run them out of track whilst keeping their own car within the white lines. It's all opinions but I think exploiting a rule in that fashion is over the limit even if, by the letter of the law, he might get away with it. I think the same when drivers cynically do an illegal overtake and try to build a 5-second gap when they should give the position back in a fair world. I think the FIA's experiment of "let the teams deal with it" has failed. If you do an illegal overtake you should either be asked to give it back or be informed that you'll get a post-race time penalty equal to the gap between you and the driver you illegally passed, with an extra 5 seconds added on top.

The first lap battle between Sainz and Verstappen, in my opinion, was a clear one on one between two guys. If the stewards have dismissed this as "it's lap one" then I find that very disappointing because the same action could have happened at any point in the race and wasn't prompted by the nature of turn one being quite chaotic and many cars going 3-4 abreast.

McLaren definitely could have done better. Between the incident and T1 the next lap, Norris was clearly driving in a way where he was uncertain whether to let Max back through or not. That may even have been the difference between him not getting a 5-second gap. I think Norris' instinct was that he'd probably have to give the place back but the team told him to hold onto the position probably thinking that it took Norris so long to get his nose in front already, he probably wouldn't get another great chance in the last 5 laps. Hindsight is 50/50 but yes, it's another example of McLaren not quite finding their feet in these situations as a front-running team with pressure and expectation. I'd hope from their perspective that they do a review of their race-day management and decision making over the winter, because chances are they'll have a championship-challenging package next season.

I think that Formula One is inherently about finding the limits of the rules and exploiting them until you get reeled in. All teams do it all the time when it comes to building the car, so I don't think one should expect it to be any different from a driver point of view. I would like to see someone do an illegal overtake and build a gap just because it would force the FIA to look into this rule. In the end people can think of it what they want, but the real issue is that the way the regulations are phrased encourage this kind of driving.

With the Verstappen-Sainz incident I do think it was dismissed on the lap 1 basis, because if I recall correctly there were 2 other incidents in that turn that didn't get punished. There's also a precedent of leniency in these situations, so again drivers will be aware of how the rules are applied under those circumstances and adjust accordingly. Whether it's a good idea to effectively ignore lap 1 incidents is a different story, though.

I also got the impression that Norris was first inclined to give the place back, but with McLaren adamantly telling him he was ahead of the apex (he wasn't), he was undermined by his own team. It seems like the team didn't want to decide between hauling out of there and pulling a gap immediately or giving the place back. They just kind of waited with their eyes closed hoping the situation would resolve itself, and it didn't. I can't help but think Red Bull or Mercedes would not have made that mistake. I expect McLaren to be in the right place next season pace-wise to sweep both championships, but with Ferrari having gotten its shit together recently and the ever-present possibility of a Red Bull resurgence, they really need to learn to make the most out of the hand they are dealt.

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, Panflute said:

I can't help but think Red Bull or Mercedes would not have made that mistake. I expect McLaren to be in the right place next season pace-wise to sweep both championships, but with Ferrari having gotten its shit together recently and the ever-present possibility of a Red Bull resurgence, they really need to learn to make the most out of the hand they are dealt.

I agree. I think Red Bull and Mercedes have been around the block enough times recently to tell their driver to just get on with building a 5-second gap because there'll probably be a penalty.

In terms of next season, I think Red Bull might be entering a period of decline. Their car will probably still be competitive next season but they've been falling off a cliff throughout the season and it's really hard to conclude that the loss of Adrian Newey and other key figures hasn't played a role.

I've been assuming that McLaren will start next year with the fastest car but now I don't think you can rule out Ferrari. They should have done a lot better in Singapore as well with their pace but they messed up qualifying. At one point it looked like Ferrari surging ahead of Red Bull would help McLaren win both championships but now it doesn't look as "possible in theory" for Norris to win most of the remaining races and sprints because Ferrari are right in the mix and actually taking points off them too now.

[Panflute]

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

I agree. I think Red Bull and Mercedes have been around the block enough times recently to tell their driver to just get on with building a 5-second gap because there'll probably be a penalty.

In terms of next season, I think Red Bull might be entering a period of decline. Their car will probably still be competitive next season but they've been falling off a cliff throughout the season and it's really hard to conclude that the loss of Adrian Newey and other key figures hasn't played a role.

I've been assuming that McLaren will start next year with the fastest car but now I don't think you can rule out Ferrari. They should have done a lot better in Singapore as well with their pace but they messed up qualifying. At one point it looked like Ferrari surging ahead of Red Bull would help McLaren win both championships but now it doesn't look as "possible in theory" for Norris to win most of the remaining races and sprints because Ferrari are right in the mix and actually taking points off them too now.

I'm always hesitant with Ferrari because the moment you think they're back, they start to fall back again. I remember them also being quite strong near the end of 2023, but then 2024 came along and they were nowhere near Red Bull once again, until the latter started to drop off. I have the most faith in McLaren because nearly all of their updates seem to work, so they appear to have a clear sense of where they're going whereas Red Bull are still trying to figure out where their problems come from.

Next year, the driver pairings of Ferrari and McLaren are also gonna play a huge part in the WDC I expect. With Norris and Piastri on one end, and Leclerc and Hamilton on the other, it's gonna be difficult determining driver hierarchy. So if one team figures this out before the other and starts prioritizing their lead driver, it might be what decides the drivers' championship.

Red Bull I don't know. It looks like a classic case of unrest in the top layer of an organization trickling down to on-track performance with a few months of delay. But as it stands now, I don't think Max will become WDC next year.

[RandoEFC+]

Norris needs to look at this season as if he's Seb Vettel in 2009. Had the best car for most of the season but another driver dominated the first 6-8 races and built up an unassailable lead. Gets his ability questioned by people who refuse to take into account that while he had the fastest car on average, it was in a highly competitive field, he had thus far no experience of a race-winning let alone championship-winning car, and he had a competitive team-mate where his title rival didn't really.

I'm not saying Norris will win the next four championships like Vettel did but it's somewhere to draw inspiration from. Vettel won a few races in 2009 but made lots of mistakes, had lots of crashes and bounced back with a dominant era in F1. A driver's ability to cope with this sort of pressure isn't fixed just because the likes of Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen were just born with the right mentality.

[Panflute]

14 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Norris needs to look at this season as if he's Seb Vettel in 2009. Had the best car for most of the season but another driver dominated the first 6-8 races and built up an unassailable lead. Gets his ability questioned by people who refuse to take into account that while he had the fastest car on average, it was in a highly competitive field, he had thus far no experience of a race-winning let alone championship-winning car, and he had a competitive team-mate where his title rival didn't really.

I'm not saying Norris will win the next four championships like Vettel did but it's somewhere to draw inspiration from. Vettel won a few races in 2009 but made lots of mistakes, had lots of crashes and bounced back with a dominant era in F1. A driver's ability to cope with this sort of pressure isn't fixed just because the likes of Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen were just born with the right mentality.

True, although one factor is that Piastri is probably a cut above his manager Mark Webber when it comes to ability and potential, so that might become a problem for him at some point.

On the other hand, he's had the measure of Piastri since after Baku. Norris's tire management in particular appears to be amazing. If he can keep it up and weeds out the unforced errors/nervousness behind the wheel, the WDC will be his to take next season.

[MUFC]

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I agree. I think Red Bull and Mercedes have been around the block enough times recently to tell their driver to just get on with building a 5-second gap because there'll probably be a penalty.

In terms of next season, I think Red Bull might be entering a period of decline. Their car will probably still be competitive next season but they've been falling off a cliff throughout the season and it's really hard to conclude that the loss of Adrian Newey and other key figures hasn't played a role.

I've been assuming that McLaren will start next year with the fastest car but now I don't think you can rule out Ferrari. They should have done a lot better in Singapore as well with their pace but they messed up qualifying. At one point it looked like Ferrari surging ahead of Red Bull would help McLaren win both championships but now it doesn't look as "possible in theory" for Norris to win most of the remaining races and sprints because Ferrari are right in the mix and actually taking points off them too now.

I understand how Newey leaving would have an impact. But he'd laid down so much groundwork that I have a feeling there could be more to it? My dates could be wrong here but Newey left on the 1st of May to work on some hypercar? Max still won 3 out of the next 4 races. But I don't get the sudden drop off, do you think it could be like 2018 when Ferrari and the FIA had a meeting and kept it quiet about the outcome? Or is it that their upgrades during that period really did go tits up?

I just thought any impact Newey had in leaving would come during 2025 or a for the new regulations. Just not as quick as it has.

Edited October 21 by MUFC

[Panflute]

I don't think it's just Newey leaving. The entire organization was on its ass at the start of the season due to a power struggle in the wake of Horny Horner's leaks. Newey leaving was just part of the fallout. That sort of instability will just affect an organization, starting at the top and trickling down to the on-track performance.

I also don't believe this had anything to do with some secret part Red Bull had to remove from their car due to a regulation change; they weren't necessarily going slower, it's just that some teams came with really good upgrades and were suddenly ahead of them. Red Bull went down a wrong development path and stagnated.