Tuesday 20th February - Chelsea 1-1 Barcelona (1st Leg)

[RandoEFC+]

Runaway La Liga leaders only scraping a draw against a team battling for the top four in England. Pretty clear the EPL is back to being the best league in the world again.

[SirBalon]

8 minutes ago, Cicero said:

@SirBalon Im sorry but in what way exactly did Barca play better? Useless Possession? 

We were unlucky not to see out the game 3-0 given those chances. Juventus all over again. 

Juventus all over again would’ve been Chelsea winning 3-0 mate. It ended 1-1 and in terms of playing better it was a case of controlling the moments of the game which is why the result ended the way it did.

I know you can quote two balls that hit the woodwork and that Chelsea had the more threatening moments inf front of goal especially in the first half.  But that’s the nature of playing away in the Champions League and it’s not the first time we’ve seen this from Barça or other sides in this competition. I remember a game agat not Man City where Barcelona didn’t actually control the game but ended up winning 0-4 (or was it 1-4, it doesn’t matter).

But more to my benefit in what I said is that there’s been plenty of games that have gone like today’s in all three competitions Barcelona have been involved in and yet they’ve (on the most part by a massive margin) come off benefitting with a positive result which a 1-1 away from home in Europe is and always has been.

In saying this, I’ve already said that Chelsea played a very good game, a game they wouldn’t have played three or four weeks back but you’ve got a bit of your mojo back in the past few weeks with results and performances. It was always going to be a close game and more so because Barcelona under Valverde don’t play the game that was predicted in many posts earlier in this thread. It goes to show many either haven’t been watching Barça under Valverde or haven’t analysed it well enough because his Barcelona doesn’t play an open attacking game unless things turn for the best really early on and then the side just open up and play like they’d know how by design.  His (Valverde) football is methodical, almost Conte-like to be honest.  It’s very controlled but with the difference on it being based on grinding the opponent down..

Now that final sentence on that last paragraph is something people should look into where stats do really matter.  Have a look at how many games Valverde’s Barcelona have won in the second half especially the final 20 minutes this season. These things don’t happen by accident and what I was saying is that the game tonight went by design.

[Spike]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

Chelsea were good no doubt about that but Barcelona were better overall without making too many chances though.

But this game can be told in one single word... MESSI!

No they weren't. Just because they passed the ball more often doesn't mean they were better. Possession ultimately means nothing if it isn't utilised, which it wasn't tonight. It wasn't defensive possession, it wasn't offensive possession, it was moving the ball around for lack of ideas.

Fact: Barcelona scored on a mistake.
Fact: Barcelona didn't make as many chances as Chelsea, despite having possession.  
Fact: Barcelona's defence couldn't handle a mediocre winger from shooting outside the box, he did the same trick three times and could have (save for inches) had a hattrick.
Fact: Numerous times Messi and Suarez crossed the ball into nobody, they had 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% possession yet still had awful production.
Fact: Messi had an awful game save for his goal

Barcelona were horrible. They as usual wanked the ball around, doing nothing with it, they could only score from a mistake from a player on his third professional season courtesy of the greatest player of all time. Barcelona draw level despite themselves, which many hate to admit is the mark of a great team, to get a result despite being beyond rubbish.

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

Fact: Barcelona scored on a mistake.

99% of goals are mistakes as was Chelsea’s. There’s only one fact which is 1-1 at Stamford Bridge. Don’t rack your brain on searching for something that can’t change things mate.  Passing is also a part of the game and the protagonist should be the home team under normal circumstances. Like I said, Chelsea played a very good game but the result as it stands is your typical good result away from home which was more than merited.

[RandoEFC+]

If you have more possession and draw all that actually is is another way of saying you wasted more of the ball than your opponent.

[SirBalon]

Just now, RandoEFC said:

If you have more possession and draw all that actually is is another way of saying you wasted more of the ball than your opponent.

There’s no “other way”.  There’s only a result!

Possession grinds a team down, makes an opponent run after the ball while the other team is in control of the ball (hence control). You’re just searching for something that doesn’t exist but if it makes you feel better to create something else, then by all means be my guest.  The score was 1-1.. A draw!  I haven’t heard any Barça player after the game in the post match interviews say anything other than that their disappointed it wasn’t a win but that’s Chelsea also laced well.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

Considering you rate Neymar so highly I understand how you think and it’s correct under that understanding.  But Messi is better than he’s ever been... Messi isn’t a ball juggler anymore and doesn’t have to rely on scoring almost 100 goals a year like he used to. He is now an all round footballer, a complete footballer and a master of most football crafts. You’ve never seen anyone better, nobody here has and you should just sit back and enjoy it if it’s possible and stop analysing something you or any of us have no understanding about.

Just limit it to adjectives about how good he is. 

I can see your point but I see Neymar do a lot more with the ball than Messi. Leo has always been a better ball juggler and always will be but I'm still completely on the fence as to whether I'd take a quality player who is effective over a player who does everything he wishes to with the ball, which is why I still think Maradona is the best in history. He had both.

[Spike]

Just now, SirBalon said:

99% of goals are mistakes as was Chelsea’s. There’s only one fact which is 1-1 at Stamford Bridge. Don’t rack your brain on searching for something that can’t change things mate.  Passing is also a part of the game and the protagonist should be the home team under normal circumstances. Like I said, Chelsea played a very good game but the result as it stands is your typical good result away from home which was more than merited.

99% of goals aren't mistakes, don't be silly. The home advantage = dominance in possession is just awful logic. You can't surmise that possession = attacking football, Chelsea attacked Barcelona very aggressively, more aggressively than Barcelona did to Chelsea. Every time Chelsea had the ball, they moved in numbers aggressively attacking upwards the pitch.  Why are people constantly surprised that team let Barcelona play around with the ball? In what universe would it be wise for Chelsea to duel Barcelona for possession? It ultimately means nothing as it is what is done with the ball is more important and from what I saw Chelsea attacked with bravado when they had the ball. 

I just don't understand this bizarre concept that the team with possession is inherently attacking team. The game may look like that, but upon examining the sport closely, it is easy to see that having the ball can be defensive and offensive in nature. 

The teams were equal today, despite your insistence 'they were better overall'. As you said yourself the score is 1-1. 

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

There’s no “other way”.  There’s only a result!

Possession grinds a team down, makes an opponent run after the ball while the other team is in control of the ball (hence control). You’re just searching for something that doesn’t exist but if it makes you feel better to create something else, then by all means be my guest.  The score was 1-1.. A draw!  I haven’t heard any Barça player after the game in the post match interviews say anything other than that their disappointed it wasn’t a win but that’s Chelsea also laced well.

Not searching for anything mate, just commenting. It just bores me how people constantly go on about possession. If you had more possession and won then fair play, dominating the ball paid off for you and helped you by grinding them down to score and by keeping the ball off them to stop them from scoring.

However if you dominate possession and don't win then there's no point in dominating possession in the first place. In fact if you had more of the ball but translated that into the same or less goals as your opponent you could say that was actually a negative reflection on your team in some scenarios.

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Blue said:

I can see your point but I see Neymar do a lot more with the ball than Mess

What do you see here?

 

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Spike said:

99% of goals aren't mistakes, don't be silly. The home advantage = dominance in possession is just awful logic. You can't surmise that possession = attacking football, Chelsea attacked Barcelona very aggressively, more aggressively than Barcelona did to Chelsea. Every time Chelsea had the ball, they moved in numbers aggressively attacking upwards the pitch.  Why are people constantly surprised that team let Barcelona play around with the ball? In what universe would it be wise for Chelsea to duel Barcelona for possession? It ultimately means nothing as it is what is done with the ball is more important and from what I saw Chelsea attacked with bravado when they had the ball. 

I just don't understand this bizarre concept that the team with possession is inherently attacking team. The game may look like that, but upon examining the sport closely, it is easy to see that having the ball can be defensive and offensive in nature. 

The teams were equal today, despite your insistence 'they were better overall'. As you said yourself the score is 1-1. 

Does that make you feel better?

[Spike]

Just now, SirBalon said:

Does that make you feel better?

Don't be a prick. I'm having a conversation about footballing philosophy with you, I actually expect more open mindedness from you. 

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

Not searching for anything mate, just commenting. It just bores me how people constantly go on about possession. If you had more possession and won then fair play, dominating the ball paid off for you and helped you by grinding them down to score and by keeping the ball off them to stop them from scoring.

However if you dominate possession and don't win then there's no point in dominating possession in the first place. In fact if you had more of the ball but translated that into the same or less goals as your opponent you could say that was actually a negative reflection on your team in some scenarios.

You can’t always win!  Barcelona weren’t playing Huddersfield Town, they were playing Chelsea at Stamford Bridge mate.  Chelsea have gained form in the past few weeks and they’re the reigning Premier League Champions.  On form they’re as competitive as anyone in the Premier League and playing away to them has always been traditionally difficult for anyone and that includes Barcelona, more free flowing Barcelona sides that done a lot worse in the past in terms of a final result.

Its about putting things into perspective where competitiveness is in question.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

What do you see here?

 

Not sure what you're expecting to show me. I'd like to actually see him play football 11 consistently like Neymar and Messi. 

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

Don't be a prick. I'm having a conversation about footballing philosophy with you, I actually expect more open mindedness from you. 

I’m not being a prick mate and I’m not trying to get at you. It’s a known fact quoted by every single football analyst and past players and managers that almost every goal is a mistake along the way by the opponent. You started by respa being me with a made up fact that it isn’t true and from there on I as conditioned for the rest of your comment.  Barcelona didn’t close down Willian quickly enough with ample time that they had which isn’t an error but you forgot to analyse that.  Forget it... The tie isn’t even over anyway.

[RandoEFC+]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

You can’t always win!  Barcelona weren’t playing Huddersfield Town, they were playing Chelsea at Stamford Bridge mate.  Chelsea have gained form in the past few weeks and they’re the reigning Premier League Champions.  On form they’re as competitive as anyone in the Premier League and playing away to them has always been traditionally difficult for anyone and that includes Barcelona, more free flowing Barcelona sides that done a lot worse in the past in terms of a final result.

Its about putting things into perspective where competitiveness is in question.

I'm not commenting specifically on tonight, more playing devils advocate with the common phenomenon of fans using possession as a barometer of a teams performance.

[SirBalon]

Just now, Blue said:

Not sure what you're expecting to show me. I'd like to actually see him play football 11 consistently like Neymar and Messi. 

I’m showing you someone that does a lot more than Neymar and Messi with the ball.  I’m responding to your comment!

Hes probably a shot footballer, who knows. What’s for sure is that he isn’t a professional footballer but you’ve got your analysing all mixed up. You have to look for other ways to prove Neymar is better than Messi other than knowing how to mess around with the ball a lot more.  Do that and I’ll read it more avidly.

[Guest]

Just now, SirBalon said:

I’m showing you someone that does a lot more than Neymar and Messi with the ball.  I’m responding to your comment!

Hes probably a shot footballer, who knows. What’s for sure is that he isn’t a professional footballer but you’ve got your analysing all mixed up. You have to look for other ways to prove Neymar is better than Messi other than knowing how to mess around with the ball a lot more.  Do that and I’ll read it more avidly.

That's the thing: I don't know if he's better than Messi. He's better technically as there are things he can do that Messi can't, but Leo is still close + is more effective. I'm on the fence here. I just don't think he's as good as he was in 2015.

[Spike]

7 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I’m not being a prick mate and I’m not trying to get at you. It’s a known fact quoted by every single football analyst and past players and managers that almost every goal is a mistake along the way by the opponent. You started by respa being me with a made up fact that it isn’t true and from there on I as conditioned for the rest of your comment.  Barcelona didn’t close down Willian quickly enough with ample time that they had which isn’t an error but you forgot to analyse that.  Forget it... The tie isn’t even over anyway.

Everything can be construed as an error in retrospect. I feel it is an odd way of classing the sport as opposed to cut and dried mistakes, for instance passing the ball directly to an opponent. It would eventually become a game of shoulda, coulda, woulda.

[SirBalon]

6 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I'm not commenting specifically on tonight, more playing devils advocate with the common phenomenon of fans using possession as a barometer of a teams performance.

I’ll tell you where in my opinion possession dishes out a negative vibe in terms of analysing a final argument on how a game went.

For some reason people seem to feel that when possession is quoted wether by a football pundit or a mere fan that this is a conclusion to saying a team attacked more.  Now this detail has always left me bemused because where does knowing how to hold onto the ball and make your opponent run after shadows ever mean that this is exclusive to pummelling the opponent’s goal area?

What if I were to say to you that possession is another’s way of controlling a game and wasting your opponent’s energy and that it was also another more effective way of defending because without the ball your opponent simply cannot score unless the team in possession puts it in the back of their own net?

We have two ways of defending that I will put to you (although there are others)... Putting 11 men behind the ball (known as parking the bus) or knowing how to pass the ball and not let the other team sniff it for long periods of time.

If we look at it that way then maybe we can all get away from making assumptions that don’t exist.

Also I want to add this... The usual way a team that is good in possession gets attacked is on the counter.  Now, counter attacking football leaves the impression of more threat being created because it’s based on a quick transition which I don’t need to tell anyone what that looks like when you’re observing it. And the fact that a counter is usually occurring in a load of space a team has left which means the opportunity will be more clear cut than the team searching to methodically calculate how to get through a brick wall and any gap in the cement.

[SirBalon]

7 minutes ago, Blue said:

That's the thing: I don't know if he's better than Messi. He's better technically as there are things he can do that Messi can't, but Leo is still close + is more effective. I'm on the fence here. I just don't think he's as good as he was in 2015.

You don’t know because he’s simply isn’t. The argumber is ridiculous and you’re the only one I’ve ever heard (apart from social media trolls) even contemplating in comparing both Messi and Neymar at this moment in time. What the future holds nobody knows, but right now they’re on different stratospheres.

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Spike said:

Everything can be construed as an error in retrospect. I feel it is an odd way of classing the sport as opposed to cut and dried mistakes, for instance passing the ball directly to an opponent. It would eventually become a game of shoulda, coulda, woulda.

Passing the ball is a technique that requires a high technical skill level mate.  With that I’m not saying it’s superior to any other high end football skill.  What I do know is that it’s beneficial and never negative for those that use it because it creates various outcomes with the most influential one being fatigue in the rival’s physical energy levels.  Infact it wasn’t Marcelino (the Valencia coach) who said last week after the Copa del Rey Semi Final defeat that he was more worried about how his team were going to recover physically for their next encounter than the sadness the team might be feeling at being eliminated.  He added that playing  Barcelona meant planning in a very different manner to playing any other top side in the world including Real Madrid.

[Spike]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

Passing the ball is a technique that requires a high technical skill level mate.  With that I’m not saying it’s superior to any other high end football skill.  What I do know is that it’s beneficial and never negative for those that use it because it creates various outcomes with the most influential one being fatigue in the rival’s physical energy levels.  Infact it wasn’t Marcelino (the Valencia coach) who said last week after the Copa del Rey Semi Final defeat that he was more worried about how his team were going to recover physically for their next encounter than the sadness the team might be feeling at being eliminated.  He added that playing  Barcelona meant planning in a very different manner to playing any other top side in the world including Real Madrid.

No one is disagreeing with that. 

[SirBalon]

Just now, Spike said:

No one is disagreeing with that. 

So if you can agree with that mate, why can’t you agree with the fact that means control of the game. The fact a rival capitalises on errors of possession (which will occur) and causes a threat isn’t control. All I said was that Barcelona controlled the game and that the result was a brilliant one away from home.

[Spike]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

So if you can agree with that mate, why can’t you agree with the fact that means control of the game. The fact a rival capitalises on errors of possession (which will occur) and causes a threat isn’t control. All I said was that Barcelona controlled the game and that the result was a brilliant one away from home.

Not necessarily. That is too reductionist. While it is usually the easier method, I disagree that controlling the ball is the only method of controlling the game.