NHL

[Viva la FCB+]

13 minutes ago, Spike said:

Hughes is a budget Makar that can't defend.

Agree to disagree. His defence was really solid in the first year and he was neck and neck with Makar for the Calder and deservedly so. Now Makar definitely seperated himself at this point but hes also had the benefit of playing on a much better team. Our team is vastly improved in the off season and yes its only 3 games but our defence looks miles better as well even losing Hamonic it seems. That being said Hughes was an unmitigated disaster defensively for the first half a year last season but he did round it out again in the back half of the season. 

[Spike]

5 minutes ago, Viva la FCB said:

Agree to disagree. His defence was really solid in the first year and he was neck and neck with Makar for the Calder and deservedly so. Now Makar definitely seperated himself at this point but hes also had the benefit of playing on a much better team. Our team is vastly improved in the off season and yes its only 3 games but our defence looks miles better as well even losing Hamonic it seems. That being said Hughes was an unmitigated disaster defensively for the first half a year last season but he did round it out again in the back half of the season. 

Not at all. People get their heads turned by point production and Hughes has that in aces but he was never close to Makar defensively.

[Viva la FCB+]

10 minutes ago, Spike said:

Not at all. People get their heads turned by point production and Hughes has that in aces but he was never close to Makar defensively.

Nonsense. His rookie numbers where pretty much on par with Makar. Makar had him beat on ppg at that time as he missed a few games. But again their rookie seasons one played for a barely bubble playoff team and the other played for one of top 2 in the west, naturally Makars numbers (even corsi) should be better and they where but by a slim margin. 

[Spike]

24 minutes ago, Viva la FCB said:

Nonsense. His rookie numbers where pretty much on par with Makar. Makar had him beat on ppg at that time as he missed a few games. But again their rookie seasons one played for a barely bubble playoff team and the other played for one of top 2 in the west, naturally Makars numbers (even corsi) should be better and they where but by a slim margin. 

Makar stands out on one of the best teams in the league, you could slot him into any team's top two defensive pairing. At 19 he debuted in the Cup Finals and played at a standard higher than nearly every other defender in the finals, this player is a freak, beyond a freak. Nothing I've said has been at Hughes's derision, I just don't think that Hughes is at or will ever be at Makar's level, and that's okay because Hughes is still one of the best young defenders in the league and I'd definitely take him on my team in a hearbeat. Just because McDavid is a freak and above Leon Draistl doesn't mean that Draistl is bad. The two things I will give Hughes is that he is more durable than Makar (hopefully both can have a long career), and he is better with the puck (I think Hughes will end up with more points but less goals at career's end, I think Makar shoots a bit more), but I will always maintain that Makar's all-round abilities and style push him higher than Hughes. He looks more composed, takes less penalties, hits a lot more, gives away the puck less (which I'd tie into their point production, I think Hughes takes riskier plays that have high risk/reward), and has that steely presence of a veteran at 22.  I also understand that you are a Canucks fan and will always rate Hughes higher than me, and I'd do the same thing if Hughes was a Blackhawk.

I think the comparison is unfair and both are quite different. A neat little fact when I was researching their stats was that Hughes' has nearly a perfect production split between PP and even strength. Ultimately I just think their skillset is comparable but Makar has a bizarre level of maturity to his game, plus a bit more physical edge.

I also do not buy the 'he is one a better team argument' one bit. That doesn't diminish his ability or talent.

[Spike]

Seattle fans saying that Philadelphia are their rivals now. The big two game a season rivalry, how embarrassing. Even the Blackhawks and Red Wings rivalry couldn't survive two games a seson, and that was one of the most played rivalries of all time.

[Viva la FCB+]

5 hours ago, Spike said:

Makar stands out on one of the best teams in the league, you could slot him into any team's top two defensive pairing. At 19 he debuted in the Cup Finals and played at a standard higher than nearly every other defender in the finals, this player is a freak, beyond a freak. Nothing I've said has been at Hughes's derision, I just don't think that Hughes is at or will ever be at Makar's level, and that's okay because Hughes is still one of the best young defenders in the league and I'd definitely take him on my team in a hearbeat. Just because McDavid is a freak and above Leon Draistl doesn't mean that Draistl is bad. The two things I will give Hughes is that he is more durable than Makar (hopefully both can have a long career), and he is better with the puck (I think Hughes will end up with more points but less goals at career's end, I think Makar shoots a bit more), but I will always maintain that Makar's all-round abilities and style push him higher than Hughes. He looks more composed, takes less penalties, hits a lot more, gives away the puck less (which I'd tie into their point production, I think Hughes takes riskier plays that have high risk/reward), and has that steely presence of a veteran at 22.  I also understand that you are a Canucks fan and will always rate Hughes higher than me, and I'd do the same thing if Hughes was a Blackhawk.

I think the comparison is unfair and both are quite different. A neat little fact when I was researching their stats was that Hughes' has nearly a perfect production split between PP and even strength. Ultimately I just think their skillset is comparable but Makar has a bizarre level of maturity to his game, plus a bit more physical edge.

I also do not buy the 'he is one a better team argument' one bit. That doesn't diminish his ability or talent.

So i was referring to the Calder race season; in which the better team argument 100% comes into play here along with me saying Hughes was neck and neck with Makar in that trophy race. Thats that season only though. Since then Hughes has been a bit bumpy as I mentioned and meanwhile Makar has only gotten better. Makar is 100% the better player in nearly every aspect at this point, but that was not the case in that rookie season. Thats basically the only point I was making. Makar is in that top teir of defence at this point with the Heiskenans and Hedmans of the game while Hughes is solidly in the second teir at the moment.

[Viva la FCB+]

@Spike I got to see most of the game last night. Hawks off to rough start, all day on our local radio and even the broadcast (corey hirsh whos awful for what its worth) where saying Colliton's jobs in jeopardy and most hawks fans I see on r hockey arent happy with him either. What says you!? I think your squad on paper looks better then your record shows, should be good enough to compete for a playoff spot anyways, no? 

 

[Spike]

36 minutes ago, Viva la FCB said:

@Spike I got to see most of the game last night. Hawks off to rough start, all day on our local radio and even the broadcast (corey hirsh whos awful for what its worth) where saying Colliton's jobs in jeopardy and most hawks fans I see on r hockey arent happy with him either. What says you!? I think your squad on paper looks better then your record shows, should be good enough to compete for a playoff spot anyways, no? 

 

I don't listen to anyone on reddit. They think Philadelphia and Seattle are now rivals.

Here is my opinion, I'm not going to have the most in depth analysis because how many strategies and tactics are there in hockey? Dump and chase, transition rush, left-wing lock forechecking, 1-2-2 forechecking, et al. You know them but I struggle to see how a system change would improve much with a different coach. Ultimately, Patrick Kane isn't backchecking or forechecking, Toews isn't a 100 point centre, and telling them that they now play a strong-side overload isn't going to change the amount of individual mistakes that have been occurring, it isn't going to make Kirby Dach score the three one on ones he has had this season, it's isn't going to stop Fleury from having puck handling meltdowns. Ultimately I think there could be a more cohesive strategy for the Hawks but the tactical management isn't going to change much, right? How much can a head coach do to a game? He can control the lines, when they come out, who is on the the lines for the kill and the play but since hockey is such a fast sport how much of the on ice decision making can he affect? Patrick Kane is always going to play slow and methodical, he will always sit on the puck for as long as he can to make a play, no coach will change that, and if they did, he'd probably ignore them because he is one of the greatest hockey players ever. I just don't understand what other fans want? Maybe I'm too new to hockey to fully appreciate the tactics but it seems to me to be a sport of strategy over tactics, and the overall strategy for the Hawks seems to be puck retention, speed, and puck cycling, which they should be doing very well but are struggling hugely. The Hawks have the best PP in years but everything else is so bad, so something in the offensive system is clicking (Hawks had a very bad PP under Quenville, it was endless puck cycling, pass to the office, pass to blue line, pass to blue line, pass to the office, for two minutes). What do other fans want? Tortorella? The man that would throw a tantrum when Kane and DeBrincat don't backcheck like Patrice Bergeron on every shift? Babcock, whom that manipulates young players and hazes them in front of the locker room?

Maybe it's just a morale problem, maybe they just need a unifying presence to get behind, to buy into an ideal. You'd think they'd have that with Toews back but maybe there is too much discrepancy between the ages of the old guard and young players, without enough players in their 'prime'.

[Viva la FCB+]

2 hours ago, Spike said:

I don't listen to anyone on reddit. They think Philadelphia and Seattle are now rivals.

Here is my opinion, I'm not going to have the most in depth analysis because how many strategies and tactics are there in hockey? Dump and chase, transition rush, left-wing lock forechecking, 1-2-2 forechecking, et al. You know them but I struggle to see how a system change would improve much with a different coach. Ultimately, Patrick Kane isn't backchecking or forechecking, Toews isn't a 100 point centre, and telling them that they now play a strong-side overload isn't going to change the amount of individual mistakes that have been occurring, it isn't going to make Kirby Dach score the three one on ones he has had this season, it's isn't going to stop Fleury from having puck handling meltdowns. Ultimately I think there could be a more cohesive strategy for the Hawks but the tactical management isn't going to change much, right? How much can a head coach do to a game? He can control the lines, when they come out, who is on the the lines for the kill and the play but since hockey is such a fast sport how much of the on ice decision making can he affect? Patrick Kane is always going to play slow and methodical, he will always sit on the puck for as long as he can to make a play, no coach will change that, and if they did, he'd probably ignore them because he is one of the greatest hockey players ever. I just don't understand what other fans want? Maybe I'm too new to hockey to fully appreciate the tactics but it seems to me to be a sport of strategy over tactics, and the overall strategy for the Hawks seems to be puck retention, speed, and puck cycling, which they should be doing very well but are struggling hugely. The Hawks have the best PP in years but everything else is so bad, so something in the offensive system is clicking (Hawks had a very bad PP under Quenville, it was endless puck cycling, pass to the office, pass to blue line, pass to blue line, pass to the office, for two minutes). What do other fans want? Tortorella? The man that would throw a tantrum when Kane and DeBrincat don't backcheck like Patrice Bergeron on every shift? Babcock, whom that manipulates young players and hazes them in front of the locker room?

Maybe it's just a morale problem, maybe they just need a unifying presence to get behind, to buy into an ideal. You'd think they'd have that with Toews back but maybe there is too much discrepancy between the ages of the old guard and young players, without enough players in their 'prime'.

Yeah thats fair, if it was up to canucks reddit Green would have been fired into the sun 100 times so far this season because we arent 5-0-0. Yeah, well said. I do forget that Toews had a year off in between all this too, he isnt the player he once was for sure. 

[Spike]

4 hours ago, Viva la FCB said:

Yeah thats fair, if it was up to canucks reddit Green would have been fired into the sun 100 times so far this season because we arent 5-0-0. Yeah, well said. I do forget that Toews had a year off in between all this too, he isnt the player he once was for sure. 

One thing that has driven me insane is the inconsistency of what players are on the blue line. They have cycled through young players like mad, and these rookies aren't going to improve by bouncing up and down between AHL and NHL. Either give them faith, or let them play in the AHL. STOP TRADING THEM AWAY. Nicholas Beaudin, Henri Jorkiharju, Adam Boqvist,, Ian Mitchell, Wyatt Kalnyuk, Lucas Carlsson, Alec Regula, Dennis Gilbert, Gustav Forsling, these are all defender that have been u-24 that have played for the Hawks in the last few years. None of them are with the Hawks right now, whether it be affiliated or traded away. Riley Stillman is the only u-24 dman they have on the ice right now.

[Spike]

@Viva la FCB I was at the Hawks Wings game yesterday... this is what I had to say about it

Quote

Went to a hockey game yesterday. Awful weather, constant rain and wind, a Chicago speciality, but it is indoor so that is okay. The seats were fantastic 6th row from the ice, skewed just about a quarter of the way towards one net. Sat in front of a group of yuppies, constantly talking, talking, talking, talking, about their lives and themselves. I feel like I know these people intimately and I should be going out to dinner with them. One kept talking about school in the richest suburb in Chicago and how people from New York 'only work for the big banks or wall street', it was maddening being sat next to these crazy, out of touch people that live in their little world so distant from anyone else's.

Also the away fans had some louder chants than the home fans and the people I was by were all limp wristed and never joined in the the chanting and calling. Now, I understand why you lot hate fairweather fans and executive suites so much.

 

 

[Viva la FCB+]

35 minutes ago, Spike said:

@Viva la FCB I was at the Hawks Wings game yesterday... this is what I had to say about it

 

 

That is a sad state of affairs my friend. I did hear your consecutive sellout streak finally ended, going back from the late 00's. I know all about fairweather fans here and they really grinds my gears. Unfortunately thats whats going to be around until you guys build up a prospect pool and retool or fully rebuild. We went through a little bit of that before the Sedins retired, we werent quite bad enough to be in the top end picks but werent good enough to pushing for playoffs its kind of the worst spot to be. At the same time your nearing the end of a dynasty and have 3 cups to show for it so theres that, all we had was a game 7 finals loss and 2 presidents trophies  I typically went to 1 or 2 games a year pre pandemic anyways Im hoping to get to one in the new years, frankly I cant wait.

[Spike]

@Viva la FCB Stan Bowman was just sacked due to the sexual assault cover-up of 2010. Brad Aldrich made advances on several players and then after that was reported and binned, he made an advance on an intern. It's a whole management ordeal, apparently Quennville was in on the cover-up, as well as then president McDonough, Jay Blunk, and Kevin Chevedayoff (what will happened in Winnepeg?). The players knew (that only being Kane and Toews now), and this was before Jeremy Colliton was a part of the org. This is big and it's a fantastic excuse for the management to put Bowman's head under the guillotine and get off as the heroes, especially amongst the team crashing and burning right now.

The Hawks have to get a long term GM in place right now, one that can secure the team going forward. Maybe Sakic or Yzerman want a lakefront house...

[Spike]

Ah I just realised that Quenneville could be fired as well

[Viva la FCB+]

6 minutes ago, Spike said:

@Viva la FCB Stan Bowman was just sacked due to the sexual assault cover-up of 2010. Brad Aldrich made advances on several players and then after that was reported and binned, he made an advance on an intern. It's a whole management ordeal, apparently Quennville was in on the cover-up, as well as then president McDonough, Jay Blunk, and Kevin Chevedayoff (what will happened in Winnepeg?). The players knew (that only being Kane and Toews now), and this was before Jeremy Colliton was a part of the org. This is big and it's a fantastic excuse for the management to put Bowman's head under the guillotine and get off as the heroes, especially amongst the team crashing and burning right now.

The Hawks have to get a long term GM in place right now, one that can secure the team going forward. Maybe Sakic or Yzerman want a lakefront house...

Yeah I had read some of the original report and some of the details that have trickled out since its disturbing and sick. Basically everyone had publically said nothing but this bombshell was always going to drop. Its unfortunately 10 years too late for those involved but better late then never. I think its only Chevy and Quenville as you mention that spills over for other orgs. Its a 107 page report so we'll see how this unfolds further. 

On a side note it sounded like Bowman was the biggest Colliton supporter so he might not be on stable ground anymore either. 

[Spike]

1 minute ago, Viva la FCB said:

Yeah I had read some of the original report and some of the details that have trickled out since its disturbing and sick. Basically everyone had publically said nothing but this bombshell was always going to drop. Its unfortunately 10 years too late for those involved but better late then never. I think its only Chevy and Quenville as you mention that spills over for other orgs. Its a 107 page report so we'll see how this unfolds further. 

On a side note it sounded like Bowman was the biggest Colliton supporter so he might not be on stable ground anymore either. 

The players seem to like Colliton because he gives them agency and apparently has a good relationship with the senior players. Until a permanent GM is installed Colliton is safe.

[Viva la FCB+]

By all accounts ive heard and read the players like Colliton but at the end of the day its a results orientated business and it is fairly ruthless. With new management generally comes a new coach too but well see. 

It also sounds like there is 0 chance the players where unaware of what was going on god these stories are awful. To add the Toews and Kane you still have Keith around and even Ladd. 

[Spike]

Just now, Viva la FCB said:

By all accounts ive heard and read the players like Colliton but at the end of the day its a results orientated business and it is fairly ruthless. With new management generally comes a new coach too but well see. 

It also sounds like there is 0 chance the players where unaware of what was going on god these stories are awful. To add the Toews and Kane you still have Keith around and even Ladd. 

It isn't new management yet. A senior staff member is an interim.

[Viva la FCB+]

22 minutes ago, Spike said:

It isn't new management yet. A senior staff member is an interim.

Well yeah I dont mean this minute, that would some timing if he literally stepped down an hour or two ago and hes already replaced  The interim wont be doing the firing thats for sure. 

[Spike]

Goddamn, apparently he drugged the player and sucked his dick. Threatened him with a baseball bat that he'd never walk again.

[Viva la FCB+]

Kyle Beach came out as John Doe in the reports and did an interview with Rick Westhead. That is an absolutely tragic and heart wrenching read. I hope they take down everyone involved. Hes gone on to name Donald Fehr and the NHLPA even. 

 

https://www.tsn.ca/kyle-beach-john-doe-1.1712468

[Eco]

Crazy what has gone on in Chicago and how quickly the mighty Bowman has fallen. Cap strapped and now this, with a roster that is one of the worst in the league and now back in the news except for the worst of reasons. Absolutely awful what's going on, and I think @Spike is right, I think Quenville is going to get fired after his meeting tomorrow with Bettman. 

 

Also crazy, are the scenes in Montreal. Not only did they stupidly give Ducharme a 3 year extension when everyone and their grandmother knew it wasn't HIM that took us to the Stanley Cup finals, but now Shea Weber has been put on LTIR for one of his numerous injuries, and just yesterday with the media, Drouin made comments that Shea Weber is already 'retired'. 

I'm not sure of the punishments, but I'm sure there would be some if Montreal were caught putting players on LTIR, thus freeing up cap space, instead of them retiring and getting that cap hit. I was reading about the numbers and the hit if Shea were to retire, and while it would be a hit for Montreal, it would crush Nashville as they are still on the line for some of the contract and don't have the space to take on Shea's retirement, but even looking at it now, Nashville will be hit with a $4.6m tag if Shea retires, and that will be on the books until 2026, but Nashville has the space, but certainly would be handicapped for that contract. 

Regardless, with Paul Byron and Shea Weber on LTIR, and the Price in the Player's Assistance Program, we have just over $20m worth of players unable to play. This Price and Weber contract is really going to hamstring the Canadiens until they are off the books in 2026/27.

[Eco]

I'll also say, I much preferred the divisions from last year. Having the all Canadian division was fun, unique, and rather exciting. Sure it got old playing one another each and every week, but the games just felt different, and each game seemed to have more on the line...

Plus we dominated the Canucks which helped us get into the playoffs. 

[Spike]

12 hours ago, Eco said:

Crazy what has gone on in Chicago and how quickly the mighty Bowman has fallen. Cap strapped and now this, with a roster that is one of the worst in the league and now back in the news except for the worst of reasons. Absolutely awful what's going on, and I think @Spike is right, I think Quenville is going to get fired after his meeting tomorrow with Bettman. 

 

The roster isn't bad at all, I've said that a dozen times in this thread, it's the bizarre level of play that is bad. A team with Vezina, Art Ross, Selke, Lindsey, and Smythe awards can't have a bad roster. Not just Quenville, why is everyone ignoring that Kevin Cheveldayoff was in those meetings and is the GM of the Winnipeg Jets. It's worse on Q though because he was the guy that got Aldrich hired.

Quote

Also crazy, are the scenes in Montreal. Not only did they stupidly give Ducharme a 3 year extension when everyone and their grandmother knew it wasn't HIM that took us to the Stanley Cup finals, but now Shea Weber has been put on LTIR for one of his numerous injuries, and just yesterday with the media, Drouin made comments that Shea Weber is already 'retired'. 

I'm not sure of the punishments, but I'm sure there would be some if Montreal were caught putting players on LTIR, thus freeing up cap space, instead of them retiring and getting that cap hit. I was reading about the numbers and the hit if Shea were to retire, and while it would be a hit for Montreal, it would crush Nashville as they are still on the line for some of the contract and don't have the space to take on Shea's retirement, but even looking at it now, Nashville will be hit with a $4.6m tag if Shea retires, and that will be on the books until 2026, but Nashville has the space, but certainly would be handicapped for that contract. 

Regardless, with Paul Byron and Shea Weber on LTIR, and the Price in the Player's Assistance Program, we have just over $20m worth of players unable to play. This Price and Weber contract is really going to hamstring the Canadiens until they are off the books in 2026/27.

That is completely normal and there will not be punishment, it is just listed as an LTIR instead of a retirement, even though the player will never play again. They were not 'caught' every single team does this, and I'm pretty sure Arizona has had five or six players in the past they have traded for just to put on LTIR, and get the trade picks or whatever they wanted to sweeten the deal. Because the only major hurdle is that players can only be placed on the LTIR on the first day of the season so they'll count towards the cap up until that point, so it gives clubs pressure to be cap compliant before that. This is beneficial for multiple reasons, the player still gets paid what they are owed, otherwise retirement voids the contract, the team gets cap relief otherwise the contract would still count against the cap, and they get a lot of insurance money to pay the salary. Marian Hossa, Brent Seabrook,  Nathan Horton, Henrik Zetterberg, are all still under LTIR contract but they've 'retired'.

[Eco]

3 minutes ago, Spike said:

The roster isn't bad at all, I've said that a dozen times in this thread, it's the bizarre level of play that is bad. A team with Vezina, Art Ross, Selke, Lindsey, and Smythe awards can't have a bad roster. Not just Quenville, why is everyone ignoring that Kevin Cheveldayoff was in those meetings and is the GM of the Winnipeg Jets. It's worse on Q though because he was the guy that got Aldrich hired.

Roster is what it is, but I don't think it's all that good. 

Kane is elite, no doubt. 

Toews fell off big time with injuries and his strange sickness, and just haven't been near his same form. 

DeBrincat is good, and I do like him, and I actually like Kubalik on the front line as well. 

I expected more from Strome after his Ottawa days, and Tyler Johnson just doesn't have the speed he did 5 years ago and that was one of his biggest traits. 

Seth Jones certainly isn't bad, but it's not worth the $9.5m cap hit he'll have next year. 

MAF, very underrated goalie, but also 36 so he naturally just isn't the same goalie he was 5-10 years ago.