Dr. Gonzo

Yeah but attributing that to all Venezuelans, many of whom are simply trying to flee the shitty situation Maduro's government has caused, is just stupid. Also if bribery is a problem, it's not just the Venezuelan government to blame. Criminals, regardless of where they are from, will always take advantage of a culture of corruption. Bribery going far is indicative of a culture of corruption being rampant in Peru and Chile and is a societal issue for Peruvians and Chileans to address if the problem has gotten out of hand. Making blanket statements like "they are vile from their government to their people" because of the actions of criminals is no different to those people who are anti-Latino in the US because Mexican cartels cause crime in the US. Or people who are anti-black in the US because "they have gangs and commit crimes." Or the many people around the world that end up hating anyone from the Middle East because "they're all terrorists." That kind of thinking doesn't actually address any problems, it just causes bigotry to spread.

That was genuinely hilarious

I think it would have to be some sort of multinational coalition of peacekeepers setting up a transitional government. Some Arab countries would need to be involved, I think. Probably Jordan, Egypt (due to proximity & history) and Oman (due to their long time role as being mediators for conflicts between Arabs and/or Middle Eastern nations). Realistically, though, I imagine the Saudis would want to be involved. Then pair them with the US, UK, and Germany as the western peacekeepers & mediators. Rightly or wrongly, the US and Israel are often seen as one in the same, with regard to this conflict. The US isn't going to be seen as an unbiased and objective protector of Palestinian interests - so this transitional government will not be seen as legitimate. Also, I'm not sure the US has the best track record of nation building - the occupation of Afghanistan led to a government that on paper could stand up on it's own two feet, but in reality was just a government and military on paper and the US funding they received was largely stolen by corrupt officials. I don't think you get a transitional government set up that's seen as legitimate without it being a multinational coalition backing it. Otherwise those cries of "colonialism" and "we are anti-imperialists" (which I think are ridiculous, given the history of the Arab conquests - what was that if not colonialism and imperialism?) will never die down and extremists will cling to keeping the conflict alive forever.

Don't be quick to tar all Venezuelans as vile. They are desperate people living under serious oppression - the circumstances that lead people to do things that they wouldn't otherwise do.

Yeah. It's twice now too people have tried to equate the suffering of Palestinians with the suffering of the people of Iran in this thread as well. And I think that's pretty ironic considering the point of view of many Iranians, all over the world, but especially those in Iran. So many Iranians, especially in Iran, view Palestinians as one of their oppressors. They pay their taxes and they see a government completely neglect their needs and spend a huge amount of money on backing groups like Hamas, as well as spending money to improve the lives of Palestinians rather than focusing on their own citizens. That resentment grew a lot last year when loads of Palestinians and Lebanese in the west expressed support for the Iranian government against the citizens demanding basic human rights. And nowadays, when you see an Iranian that comes out as super pro-Palestinian, it's usually someone that is very much pro-IR and against the people of Iran. Like the guy who commit the terror attack in France recently. I do my best to not harbour the same sort of resentment to all Palestinians. I know that most Palestinians are born into oppression that comes at them from basically every angle, external and internal. They're fed loads of propaganda from a young age and especially for those within places like Gaza. They're not allowed to have dissenting political opinions. Like Iranians, they face constant oppression from the same group of people that claim to be their protectors. They're basically groomed from a young age to either fight until they are martyred or to become unwilling cannon fodder for the sake of Palestinian propaganda. But Hamas, like the IR & Israel, are oppressing the people of Gaza. To quote the wise @Spike: "Just because the person holding the chains is the same colour as the slave, doesn't make it more ethical." And saying that doesn't excuse or justify Israel's own war crimes and human rights violations. That is categorically untrue. The Nakba was a violent and forced removal of Palestinian Arabs from their homes. The history of this conflict is tinged with loads of human rights abuses. Hamas's crimes decades later don't suddenly absolve Israel's crimes. For there to be meaningful and lasting peace, Israelis and Palestinians need to recognise and reconcile that the horrific mistakes of their current and past leadership that have led the conflict to this point. Wiping out Hamas and leaving a group of shellshocked civilians behind left to their own devices in the aftermath is not going to do much in the way of fighting the extremism that keeps the cycle of violence going. I think people on both sides of pro-Palestine/pro-Israel have done a lot to sort of whitewash and rewrite their histories. It's not helpful to anyone who wants to see Israelis and Palestinians living normal lives where they don't have to worry about getting killed.

I usually just use AP to find new news, then google around for different sources to see what the more biased takes are

Well that’s the issue isn’t it. The Palestinians don’t have any allies that are less extreme because of what they’ve done to other Arab nations they’ve been refugees in. So they just have Qatar and Iran feeding an already radicalised society more extremism. If your only means of resistance is to guarantee the slaughter of your people - it’s not a good resistance though. And they’ve let radicalism take root in Israeli politics with their decades of escalation. So it’s created a vicious cycle. It’s why Israel and Palestine should be a matter resolved by world powers. We cannot trust 2 sides of extremists to do anything other than escalate. The UN needs to force a resolution to this. It’s absurd the number of Jews and Arabs in the West that have been murdered in the aftermath of this war breaking out. People far far away from the battlegrounds thinking they need to fight it out where they live because they’ve been blinded by paranoia and propaganda from these 2 extremist sides.

Also for all the talk of how casualties are so disproportionate… it should be mentioned, it’s not for Hamas not trying to kill as many Israelis as they can. They’ve literally been launching missiles deliberately targeting civilian targets. Are we supposed to be annoyed with Israel for having defense systems in place for protecting innocent lives simply because Hamas has no regard for their own civilians?

Considering Hamas has basically done nothing for Gaza other than get loads of people killed, yes. Hamas is their government and also has said they’re not responsible for protecting civilians. How do you justify this “slave revolt” when the side you seem to be totally fine with doesn’t seem to give nearly as much of a fuck about dead Gazans as you do?

I don’t watch any TV news. Reading the news is better for you. It’s got the same biases but they’re easier to pick out. TV news is just naked propaganda designed to be most effective because the psychology of TV viewers has been well studied & effective propaganda techniques have existed for centuries. I can also read relatively quickly so I can probably read from 4 sources and get 4 different perspectives, which is sort of useful. MSNBC is the same as Sky by the way. Knowledge is power. I’m not undermining anything about Iran. Iran funds Hamas. They don’t give a fuck about Palestinians as being anything other than a useful pawn in their war against Israel and the US. Honestly, supporting Hamas is just tacit support of the Islamic Republic’s reign of terror. So you’ll find I’m being consistent in my views. I think as a result, I’ve got a better understanding about what Hamas is really all about than most. But they knew the response they would elicit from Israel. They were counting on it. Meanwhile I have criticised the way Israel’s fought this war. They’re fighting like cowards in the least effective way to take out a terror group that has put civilians in the firing line.

Lmao the red cow from South Park is real? Religious people are fucking mental.

Try to bin him off to the Saudis? He won't get a game at Newcastle, but any of their other clubs and he's probably a good fit. I also think United need to sack off their scouting department tbh. They're really good at identifying high profile players we've all heard of and identifying that big amounts of money can bring those players in. But they're not so good at identifying players that are going to change things on the pitch for Man Utd in any serious way.

Was that CC is Klaas?

Yeah they've become a collection of players that just down tools when the going gets tough. You'll never win anything with players that think they've made it at the top level just because they play for a big club... that know it's too expensive to clear them out compared to just sacking a manager. I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again. How on earth is Martial still at Man Utd? Rashford's a good player and I do think part of the reason he's struggled to kick on when he looks he's turned a corner is because he's played under so many different managers it's hampering his development... but at the same time, how do you justify performances where you just turn up and mope around the pitch when its your boyhood club you're playing for? That's the sort of player you want to see have pride and passion for the crest on the shirt and if he's just turning up looking like he couldn't give a fuck? I do think Ten Hag needs to go sooner rather than later, though. Although, I hope he stays long enough for us to play you.

I think that was @Batard

I think Hamas propaganda is just as much of a problem as Israeli propaganda. They're both trying to remove all nuance from any discussion about the conflict and push people onto one side over the other. The internet is full of it, lots of absolute language to get all of us to firmly take a side. When really, I think most people want this conflict to stop popping up constantly and for them to just start living like normal neighbors. Hating each other silently, without bombing anybody.

Could argue that spreading Hamas propaganda is tacit support isn't it?

I've got a lot of sympathy for most Gazans. Most of the people who live/lived there weren't even born the last time elections were allowed to be held in Gaza. They've had to live with Hamas "governing" them - so with Hamas stealing every bit of money that could go some way to helping their lives be any better, while also being told their greatest purpose in life is to die fighting the Jews when they grow up. I've got no sympathy or time for anyone that thinks Palestinian leadership has done a fucking thing for Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank. The current Palestinian leadership just exists to suck up money from Iran and Qatar and to use Palestinians as cannon fodder in a seemingly endless war, while hoping the heavy handed responses they illicit from Israel... who for some reason has leaders too fucking stupid to not think about what the blowback of their actions might mean for the future in this conflict... gain them enough sympathy in the west to have people regurgitate their propaganda. Again, I don't see why the world just sits by while Israel and Palestinian leadership just fuck around trying the same things and getting innocent people killed. They're both incapable of following international law, they're both incapable of de-escalation. I don't understand why the UK and US have to continually side with Israel at the cost of further instability in the region. Just put the foot down and let the UNSC have a peacekeeping mission. If Israel complains about it being a violation of their sovereignty, remind them of the creation of their country and the Nakba and tell them to shut the fuck up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_citizens_of_Israel 20% of Israel's population are Arabs that identify as Palestinians. Also, I think ethnically there's probably not a whole lot of difference between Palestinian Arabs and Jordanian Arabs if any.

I'm pretty sure Europe's still buying Russian oil and gas tbh. They're just buying from Azerbaijan (who have their own oil and gas, but also buy shitloads of both from Russia) and pretending none of it came from Russia.

Israel's got Arabs living there in peace though. They've even got Arab politicians. I think Israel's government does a lot that is worthy of condemnation - especially the far-right members that make up the current governing coalition. But to say the whole country wants every Palestinian dead I think flies in the face of reality. Yes, I think it's very fair to say that Israel's government has not acted in the interests of peace or stability for Israel and the Middle East. By the same token, it's fair to say that Hamas and the PA have done the exact same thing - they've acted to continually escalate the conflict. Hamas isn't a legitimate "resistance" for Gaza or Palestine. It's a group of violent radicals that want to wage war on Jews. Not just Israelis - it's in their charter, all Jews around the world. They've taken active steps to put Palestinians in harms way for their own goals. There is no peace, for Israelis or Palestinians, with them still around. I don't think any of us are experts, and certainly none of us are the word of god (lol, what a term for a conflict raging in the "holy lands") - but I certainly think you are right that his type of comment is exactly what Hamas want to hear come from the mouths of westerners. They did not commit the attack on October 7th without expecting Israel to come in with a heavy handed approach. It will never happen because of the makeup of the UN Security Council... but trusting Israelis and Palestinians to resolve this conflict with it ending in peace is a huge mistake the world is making. Nothing Israel's government has done since 1995 has been in the interest of a lasting and meaningful peace. Nothing Hamas or the PA have done have been in the interest of making a lasting and meaningful peace. Neither Israeli or Palestinian leadership have demonstrated they are capable of handling the crisis, nor have they demonstrated capability in improving the situation over the past few decades. Neither of them can even be trusted to follow international law. I don't know why the rest of the world has any faith in either of the two parties.

If he's going to go ahead with it, it's either because he's got some assurances from the US that there won't be consequences - like Saddam used to do. I think this is doubtful though, even considering Venezuela having oil sanctions removed, because before Saddam was an enemy of the US... he was one of their boys, and only really jeapordised that once he invaded Kuwait. Maduro is not one of the US's preferred dictators. Or he's going to go ahead with it as a favour to Putin, to take eyes further away from Ukraine. But unlike convincing Iran to let Hamas and the Houthis go ahead with destabilising the region, this is much closer to home for the US. And in a region where the US has close allies and Guyana being part of a trading block that enjoys close ties to the US. If Maduro wants to take this further than nationalistic chest thumping for propaganda purposes, I don't think he's got an easy route to success. His troops would need to cross a jungle with no roads, it would be further economically isolated by countries in the region, and probably find itself on the end of a naval blockade and the subject of US airstrikes. There's not any fear of nuclear war with Venezuela that exists with Russia's war on Ukraine. There's not the fear of a region igniting like a barrel of TNT the same way there is with Israel-Palestine. It would be a war in the Americas started against the interest of a pretty pro-US trading block... with the US military relatively available to swoop in considering the withdrawal from Afghanistan. There's no real appetite in the US for another Middle Eastern war... but I don't think that would be the case for a war in the US to stand up for a fledgling democracy of English speakers with the 4th highest GDP per capita in the Americas. It's basically a suicidal proposition for Maduro. And while these authoritarian "strongmen" look like idiots a lot of the time, they're usually smart enough to know that self-preservation is their number one priority. Maduro can't steal the wealth of Venezuela or live comfortably without guaranteeing that his reign isn't under threat. It's why Iran starting shit with the US and Israel is done with their proxy militias, like Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, the billions of militias they have in Iraq and Syria - it gives them that degree of plausible deniability that doesn't have them in the crosshairs of the US or Israel. If he's stupid enough to attack, I'd be surprised. But I think it'd be one of the last decisions he makes as the leader of Venezuela. I think more realistically this is like the typical chest thumping regimes like this do - it's for domestic consumption, not foreign consumption.

Swifty was fun because trying to decipher what he was trying to say was always a challenge. I feel a bit bad because I'm pretty sure reading his posts were peering into a window of deep mental illness. I dunno what his problem was @DeadLinesman was... but the posts almost always made me laugh. It's been a while since @The Liquidator's come on here and copy+pasted someone else's post from a Chelsea forum on here and expect us to understand the references in the post - but I quite enjoyed that. I'm pretty sure he blocked me years ago, but I still enjoyed replying to him and getting constantly ignored while he'd tell me what ShedEndWilliam had to say about Chelsea's last performance.

I'm pretty sure Kel (Holocaust denier) and Voice of Reason (advocate of racial hatred) are far worse than an idiot attempting cyber bullying. You're in control of yourself and how you react to people being dickheads. Nobody but Kel or Voice of Reason was in control of their abhorant views.

Nah mate you can't play it off like a joke - we all know you were dead serious - you're even still trying to defend it!