Premier League to Introduce Concussion Substitutes

[Stan]

 

 

[Burning Gold]

It's a necessary move and I'm mildly impressed they've done it this quickly, but the implementation just sounds like loads of unnecessary fuckery.

A maximum of two concussion subs per team with the opposition allowed to use the equivalent number? So if Tottenham had decided to take Kane off last night, we'd be allowed a 4th substitution just because? And what if two more players got a head injury? Just say to the second one "sorry kid, the other lads got in before you so you have to play on even though you don't know where you are or what your name is"?

Just have an independent adjudicator assess the players for concussion and take them off. No limits, but independent assessment to make sure it's genuine

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

It's a necessary move and I'm mildly impressed they've done it this quickly, but the implementation just sounds like loads of unnecessary fuckery.

A maximum of two concussion subs per team with the opposition allowed to use the equivalent number? So if Tottenham had decided to take Kane off last night, we'd be allowed a 4th substitution just because? And what if two more players got a head injury? Just say to the second one "sorry kid, the other lads got in before you so you have to play on even though you don't know where you are or what your name is"?

Just have an independent adjudicator assess the players for concussion and take them off. No limits, but independent assessment to make sure it's genuine

I read it as an equivalent number of concussion subs, not just a normal sub.

Good point about 2+ players got a head injury. Renders it a bit irrelevant to an extent.

[Burning Gold]

4 minutes ago, Stan said:

I read it as an equivalent number of concussion subs, not just a normal sub.

Good point about 2+ players got a head injury. Renders it a bit irrelevant to an extent.

Getting a bit GCSE English here, but I read it as the other team gets additional subs to make it "even"; if it was just concussion subs then just saying "two per team" would be sufficient and you wouldn't need the other clause.

[Dr. Gonzo]

How are they going to be sure of a concussion?

[DNA]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

How are they going to be sure of a concussion?

Yea this will get abused if not officiated correctly, enough players go down holding their heads to waste time in the final minutes as it is.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, DNA said:

Yea this will get abused if not officiated correctly, enough players go down holding their heads to waste time in the final minutes as it is.

I suspect it’ll require a team physio doing a cursory concussion check on the sideline. But I wonder if managers might instruct their physios to say certain players are concussed to get extra substitutes.

I don’t really trust any side to be totally honest, tbh. I think they might have to do things like say any player deemed concussed needs to spend at least 1-2 weeks out or something like that to dissuade people from abusing it during things like the fixture pileup in December.

[Stan]

Just now, Dr. Gonzo said:

I suspect it’ll require a team physio doing a cursory concussion check on the sideline. But I wonder if managers might instruct their physios to say certain players are concussed to get extra substitutes.

I don’t really trust any side to be totally honest, tbh. I think they might have to do things like say any player deemed concussed needs to spend at least 1-2 weeks out or something like that to dissuade people from abusing it during things like the fixture pileup in December.

This is my thinking, too.

It's the only way I can think of to stop clubs taking the piss when they're 1-0 up in the late moments of a game. There at least has to be a minimum amount to be used as a deterrent I would think.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Stan said:

This is my thinking, too.

It's the only way I can think of to stop clubs taking the piss when they're 1-0 up in the late moments of a game. There at least has to be a minimum amount to be used as a deterrent I would think.

It makes sense. We now know that a concussion is a serious diagnosis because it's a big head injury that has a high likelihood to have at least some permanent effects to whoever suffered from one - whether those are mild effects or really serious. It's typical for someone diagnosed with a concussion to be advised to avoid strenuous (which many doctors say even includes driving) activity for around a week (or more depending on what the concussed person is reporting as happening - things like severe headaches and constant ear ringing can be present in people with bad concussions for a long while).

I am glad that more people in football are recognising there's the potential for brain injury in football and want to take it more seriously. It should be taken very seriously. And part of taking it seriously is not letting rule changes be exploited if a player has taken a knock to the head. So part of treating it seriously would be ensuring anyone who suffers a concussion doesn't put their head at further risk by returning to training/playing too early.

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It makes sense. We now know that a concussion is a serious diagnosis because it's a big head injury that has a high likelihood to have at least some permanent effects to whoever suffered from one - whether those are mild effects or really serious. It's typical for someone diagnosed with a concussion to be advised to avoid strenuous (which many doctors say even includes driving) activity for around a week (or more depending on what the concussed person is reporting as happening - things like severe headaches and constant ear ringing can be present in people with bad concussions for a long while).

I am glad that more people in football are recognising there's the potential for brain injury in football and want to take it more seriously. It should be taken very seriously. And part of taking it seriously is not letting rule changes be exploited if a player has taken a knock to the head. So part of treating it seriously would be ensuring anyone who suffers a concussion doesn't put their head at further risk by returning to training/playing too early.

It's a little concerning reading what Vertonghen was talking about recently. 

Suffered for 9 months after a head injury with Alderweireld but carried on playing, poorly by his own admittance, and was a catalyst for his move away to Benfica, yet he still had symptoms.

Which is a cause for another point - doctors/physios have to have the last word on a player continuing or not. You see players insist on returning to play after getting some treatment even if a doctor/physio could have said no. If players really care about their own welfare (and why wouldn't they?) then they should listen to the medical professional, right?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/15/jan-vertonghen-reveals-head-blow-led-to-nine-months-of-dizziness-and-headaches-tottenham-ajax

Quote

 

A blow to the head in the Champions League semi-finals last year left Jan Vertonghen dizzy and suffering from headaches for nine months, and ruined the last season of his contract at Tottenham, the Belgium international said.

The centre-back, who left Spurs for Benfica on a free in August, was involved in a sickening collision with his teammate Toby Alderweireld against Ajax. He had concussion symptoms for months, and was left fearing every coming together in training or a match.

“Lots of people don’t know it but I suffered a lot from that hit: dizziness and headaches,” he told Belgium’s Sporza TV on Tuesday. “This is now the first time I tell about it. It affected me in total for nine months and that’s why I couldn’t bring on the field what I wanted to.

“I just didn’t know what to do. It was game after game and training after training. Every time there was a new impact. Then the lockdown came and I was able to rest for two months, after that it was a lot better.”

Vertonghen admits he felt compelled to keep on playing for the sake of his career, even though he knew it was affecting his performance.

“I had only one year of contract left, so I had to play. But when I played, I played badly. Not a lot of people knew about it, that was my own choice.”

Vertonghen’s admission comes as lawyers for a number of former rugby players sent a letter of claim to World Rugby, the Rugby Football Union and the Welsh Rugby Union in a class-action suit that alleges a failure to protect them adequately has led to early onset of dementia.

 

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

16 minutes ago, Stan said:

It's a little concerning reading what Vertonghen was talking about recently. 

Suffered for 9 months after a head injury with Alderweireld but carried on playing, poorly by his own admittance, and was a catalyst for his move away to Benfica, yet he still had symptoms.

Which is a cause for another point - doctors/physios have to have the last word on a player continuing or not. You see players insist on returning to play after getting some treatment even if a doctor/physio could have said no. If players really care about their own welfare (and why wouldn't they?) then they should listen to the medical professional, right?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/15/jan-vertonghen-reveals-head-blow-led-to-nine-months-of-dizziness-and-headaches-tottenham-ajax

 

I think a lot of players just want to play because they love playing football and with some injuries, particular concussions where we're still learning quite a lot about them and it's only very recently that they've been taken as seriously as they are... a lot of players I think have a bit of an old school mentality about it.

I also think a lot of players that return to play right after an injury are typically not thinking their injury is that bad because they've hurt themselves and their body has released endorphins to mask the pain, so they're not even close to aware of how badly they might be injured. There've been players that have walked off after ACL injuries who probably shouldn't have walked off, but they didn't realise how serious it was because of the endorphins.

Concussions are tough for all any sport I think - coaches want to play their best players and a concussion doesn't show as many outward signs of something wrong. Dizziness and a player reporting frequent horrible headaches and a constant ringing in their ear might be something a manager might think is bullshit. And because of how new a lot of the knowledge about the seriousness concussions is... I think a lot of players and managers have something of a "just get on with it" attitude to it.

[ScoRoss]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I suspect it’ll require a team physio doing a cursory concussion check on the sideline. But I wonder if managers might instruct their physios to say certain players are concussed to get extra substitutes.

I don’t really trust any side to be totally honest, tbh. I think they might have to do things like say any player deemed concussed needs to spend at least 1-2 weeks out or something like that to dissuade people from abusing it during things like the fixture pileup in December.

Other sports have a 2 week period where you aren't allowed to do almost any physical exercise. Pretty sure football would be the same.

Pretty sure the guidance I've been used to, but thankfully have never had to follow, has that you aren't even allowed to go for a run in the first seven days since a concussion.

[Burning Gold]

51 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think a lot of players just want to play because they love playing football and with some injuries, particular concussions where we're still learning quite a lot about them and it's only very recently that they've been taken as seriously as they are... a lot of players I think have a bit of an old school mentality about it.

I also think a lot of players that return to play right after an injury are typically not thinking their injury is that bad because they've hurt themselves and their body has released endorphins to mask the pain, so they're not even close to aware of how badly they might be injured. There've been players that have walked off after ACL injuries who probably shouldn't have walked off, but they didn't realise how serious it was because of the endorphins.

Concussions are tough for all any sport I think - coaches want to play their best players and a concussion doesn't show as many outward signs of something wrong. Dizziness and a player reporting frequent horrible headaches and a constant ringing in their ear might be something a manager might think is bullshit. And because of how new a lot of the knowledge about the seriousness concussions is... I think a lot of players and managers have something of a "just get on with it" attitude to it.

Fans as well. Players of course care for their own wellbeing, but they're under a lot of pressure to continue from all sides, including internally. The decision needs to be taken out of their hands. That's probably the most important thing to be honest.

[Burning Gold]

Rory Smith from NY Times confirmed that teams get a bonus sub if their opposition use a concussion subsitute. That's insane. Premier League clubs have voted down proposals to allow extra substitutions three times now, but now they have to let their opposition have one if they want to take a player off for concussion.

"Sorry Sander, you're going to have to play on because I'm shit scared of the reds bringing on Takumi Minamino"

[Stan]

26 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

Rory Smith from NY Times confirmed that teams get a bonus sub if their opposition use a concussion subsitute. That's insane. Premier League clubs have voted down proposals to allow extra substitutions three times now, but now they have to let their opposition have one if they want to take a player off for concussion.

"Sorry Sander, you're going to have to play on because I'm shit scared of the reds bringing on Takumi Minamino"

Okay yeah that's pretty counter-intuitive and disappointing to read to be honest. 

It sounds like they have the game's entertainment ahead of player welfare if that's the case.