FC Barcelona Discussion

[Cicero]

1 minute ago, Asura said:

Asensio? I doubt it mate, that kid is a winger rather than a midfielder, isnt it?

Attacking mid but can play on the wing (like Iniesta). Only plays wide to accommodate either Ronaldo or Bale. 

[SirBalon]

There is no heir to Andrés Iniesta because he is totally unique and one of the greats.  What's for sure is that one day there'll be a permanent fixture in his place because Barça aren't going to play with 10 men.  The closest thing in the squad right now is Denis Suárez, but he's nowhere near that level and probably will never be because Iniesta has been Iniesta.  Maybe in the future he can be something special, who knows.

Isco and Asensio (two Barça fans) are a good shout, but they chose their destiny and as much as it hurts me, I hope they have great careers because I love the way they play the game even though it's totally alien to what Real Madrid are historically.

[Spike]

Isco is a Barca fan.

[Spike]

Iniesta was also a Real Madrid fan and dreamed for playing for them. Footballers aren't 'fans', they are a different breed to you and me.

[SirBalon]

3 minutes ago, Spike said:

Isco is a Barca fan.

That picture is overused... 

Trust me!  There isn't a Spanish kid in Spain that is a City fan.

It's a known fact he's a Barcelona fan.

[Spike]

Just now, SirBalon said:

That picture is overused... 

Trust me!  There isn't a Spanish kid in Spain that is a City fan.

It's a known fact he's a Barcelona fan.

No, it's complete nonsense. No footballer is a fan of a team.

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

Iniesta was also a Real Madrid fan and dreamed for playing for them. Footballers aren't 'fans', they are a different breed to you and me.

Indeed he was a Real Madrid sympathiser.  He was and continues to be an Albacete fan (also the man that's saved them with over €3m invested in the club)

[Spike]

Just now, SirBalon said:

Indeed he was a Real Madrid sympathiser.  He was and continues to be an Albacete fan (also the man that's saved them with over €3m invested in the club)

You will never know the inner machinations of his mind. 'Was' is complete nonsense the child doesn't just die, there will always be a part of him that adores Real Madrid and if he doesn't then the child he was is dead.

[SirBalon]

Just now, Spike said:

No, it's complete nonsense. No footballer is a fan of a team.

Of course they are...  They're people, men who were once boys.  They support clubs but it's true that their profession makes them more pragmatic in their approach to what we see as support.  Take Iniesta for example who we've just touched upon...  He was as you said but now there's very few Cules that will beat him for the passion he has for the club.

It's like being in any profession and how it's seen from outside.

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

You will never know the inner machinations of his mind. 'Was' is complete nonsense the child doesn't just die, there will always be a part of him that adores Real Madrid and if he doesn't then the child he was is dead.

One can only go by what he's said and if there's one person I'll never look at with a side glance when he opens his mouth it's Iniesta.

[Spike]

Just now, SirBalon said:

Of course they are...  They're people, men who were once boys.  They support clubs but it's true that their profession makes them more pragmatic in their approach to what we see as support.  Take Iniesta for example who we've just touched upon...  He was as you said but now there's very few Cules that will beat him for the passion he has for the club.

It's like being in any profession and how it's seen from outside.

You've contradicted yourself. You continue to 'was' 'was' was' 'he was a Madridista' but in the same sentence you also say they are fans men who were boys. So what is it? Either the child inside exists or it doesn't. Footballers are different to you and I because they play for a club.

[Spike]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

One can only go by what he's said and if there's one person I'll never look at with a side glance when he opens his mouth it's Iniesta.

He can have emotions for both you know.

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

You've contradicted yourself. You continue to 'was' 'was' was' 'he was a Madridista' but in the same sentence you also say they are fans men who were boys. So what is it? Either the child inside exists or it doesn't. Footballers are different to you and I because they play for a club.

I'm saying that their profession changes them and that their initial passion for the sport as a fan can't die.  What I do believe is that their allegiances do change as I think Isco and Asensio's will change.

Look at Rafa Nadal...  A Barça fan as a kid (his whole family are Barcelona fans and his uncle Miguel Ángel Nadal played for Barça) and changed to a Real Madrid fan in his teens.  He's a sportsman (obviously not a footballer).  These things happen and they're usually influenced by something.

My brother was a Barça fan as a kid and today he's an Atlético Madrid fanatic living in Madrid so he could be closer to the club.

All that stuff that you can't change club may sound romantic, but it does happen in your early years.  What occurs is that many don't admit where their allegiances were earlier on and infact it would be a great debate on a thread of its own although few would admit the truth.

[Spike]

4 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I'm saying that their profession changes them and that their initial passion for the sport as a fan can't die.  What I do believe is that their allegiances do change as I think Isco and Asensio's will change.

Look at Rafa Nadal...  A Barça fan as a kid (his whole family are Barcelona fans and his uncle Miguel Ángel Nadal played for Barça) and changed to a Real Madrid fan in his teens.  He's a sportsman (obviously not a footballer).  These things happen and they're usually influenced by something.

My brother was a Barça fan as a kid and today he's an Atlético Madrid fanatic living in Madrid so he could be closer to the club.

All that stuff that you can't change club may sound romantic, but it does happen in your early years.  What occurs is that many don't admit where their allegiances were earlier on and infact it would be a great debate on a thread of its own although few would admit the truth.

I'm not saying allegiances don't change, I'm saying that they never fully die. They will always have a fondness for those clubs though. I know, because I know many people like that. Myself included, as a youngster I loved one team because of their players but now I support my home team of Brisbane. I still have a fondness of that team because of when I was a child and I remember all those happy memories.

You just want him to be the man that turned away from Real and walked towards the light. I understand, you're a passionate Cule that is in love with the club. But you are blinded by bias, Iniesta has no reason to hate Real Madrid, he doesn't need to, and from what I've seen he is a model professional that loves the sport. Of course he is going to look back fondly on his youth and remember all the players he idolised. It isn't black v white. I just can't see Iniesta mulling over how much he 'hates Real', I can picture that from someone like Fabregas or Valdes but not Iniesta.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Spike

[Spike]

It's different anyway for pros anyway. The mental gymnastics needed to support one club whilst playing for another is just about impossible. The drive to win for the team is bigger than sitting in the grandstands cheering.

[Spike]

Besides you @SirBalon should know best about having feelings for more than one club. 

[SirBalon]

3 minutes ago, Spike said:

I'm not saying allegiances don't change, I'm saying that they never fully die. They will always have a fondness for those clubs though. I know, because I know many people like that. Myself included, as a youngster I loved one team because of their players but now I support my home team of Brisbane. I still have a fondness of that team because of when I was a child and I remember all those happy memories.

You just want him to be the man that turned away from Real and walked towards the light. I understand, you're a passionate Cule that is in love with the club. But you are blinded by bias, Iniesta has no reason to hate Real Madrid, he doesn't need to, and from what I've seen he is a model professional that loves the sport. Of course he is going to look back fondly on his youth and remember all the players he idolised. It isn't black v white. I just can't see Iniesta mulling over how much he 'hates Real', I can picture that from someone like Fabregas or Valdes but not Iniesta.

I don't think Iniesta hates Real Madrid at all...  Infact I have a respect for Real Madrid inside of me that has nothing to do with the present club run by the man that presides them.  I am a Culé, and proud of it and support what they stand for totally.  But within that social standing (because Spanish football is based on social bias) I can disagree with things on all corners of the spectrum including FC Barcelona.  What occurs is that few here know where to begin with arguments like that which is good because it remains football.  What I don't like is for anyone to pretend to portray a deep understanding of something that is a lot more complex than football alone which is thankfully what English football club support is.

Anyway...  I'm veering way off the mark there.  I agree...  Iniesta will probably hold feelings toward Real Madrid although I guarantee you that he is more Culé than any now!

As for Fàbregas...  It's curious you should quote him because of all the Catalan players in recent years, he's the only one that's ever repeated that he'd have no problem in playing for Real Madrid.  Now, if you said Xavi!  There's a different story.  Valdés has always kept himself to himself and Piqué for example who is very vocal against everything Real Madrid stands for these days has a history in his family that is very Real Madrid.

[SirBalon]

4 minutes ago, Spike said:

Besides you @SirBalon should know best about having feelings for more than one club. 

Mine is a unique situation in this forum as I wrote in the other forum when I joined.  I know many people like me, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish.

[Spike]

12 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Mine is a unique situation in this forum as I wrote in the other forum when I joined.  I know many people like me, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish.

We are all unique.

13 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I don't think Iniesta hates Real Madrid at all...  Infact I have a respect for Real Madrid inside of me that has nothing to do with the present club run by the man that presides them.  I am a Culé, and proud of it and support what they stand for totally.  But within that social standing (because Spanish football is based on social bias) I can disagree with things on all corners of the spectrum including FC Barcelona.  What occurs is that few here know where to begin with arguments like that which is good because it remains football.  What I don't like is for anyone to pretend to portray a deep understanding of something that is a lot more complex than football alone which is thankfully what English football club support is.

Anyway...  I'm veering way off the mark there.  I agree...  Iniesta will probably hold feelings toward Real Madrid although I guarantee you that he is more Culé than any now!

As for Fàbregas...  It's curious you should quote him because of all the Catalan players in recent years, he's the only one that's ever repeated that he'd have no problem in playing for Real Madrid.  Now, if you said Xavi!  There's a different story.  Valdés has always kept himself to himself and Piqué for example who is very vocal against everything Real Madrid stands for these days has a history in his family that is very Real Madrid.

I never said he wasn't more of a Cule just that he is also fond of RM. You said that he 'was' and I disagreed because I feel that deep down fond memories never die. People are more complex than 'was' - 'now is'. And just because someone 'is' a fan doesn't mean they are 'passionate', which is an issue I have with supporters claiming that 'X is a fan of Y' because they project their own passion on 'X' and expect them to have the same passion. I see it all the time, most recently with Lukaku scoring against Chelsea. Chelsea fans couldn't understand why a professed 'Chelsea supporter' would celebrate scoring against the club; it's because they don't understand the difference between a 'fan' and a 'professional'. Not everyone has strong opinions on the social and morality of different football clubs. 

That is the trick though, I didn't say Fabregas wouldn't play for RM, just that I could see him saying that. This is the man that kissed the badge of Arsenal and explicitly said 'he hated Chelsea'. Look at him now.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Spike

[SirBalon]

8 hours ago, Spike said:

We are all unique.

I never said he wasn't more of a Cule just that he is also fond of RM. You said that he 'was' and I disagreed because I feel that deep down fond memories never die. People are more complex than 'was' - 'now is'. And just because someone 'is' a fan doesn't mean they are 'passionate', which is an issue I have with supporters claiming that 'X is a fan of Y' because they project their own passion on 'X' and expect them to have the same passion. I see it all the time, most recently with Lukaku scoring against Chelsea. Chelsea fans couldn't understand why a professed 'Chelsea supporter' would celebrate scoring against the club; it's because they don't understand the difference between a 'fan' and a 'professional'. Not everyone has strong opinions on the social and morality of different football clubs. 

That is the trick though, I didn't say Fabregas wouldn't play for RM, just that I could see him saying that. This is the man that kissed the badge of Arsenal and explicitly said 'he hated Chelsea'. Look at him now.

That tells us more about common human conditions than anything else.  The way Figo left Barça and what he says today and the same with Luis Enrique vice versa doing it to Real Madrid.

[Spike]

8 hours ago, SirBalon said:

That tells us more about common human conditions than anything else.  The way Figo left Barça and what he says today and the same with Luis Enrique vice versa doing it to Real Madrid.

Maybe I'm different to you (or I don't know the whole story) but I don't feel like Figo or Enrique betrayed either club. Figo's release clause was met and Barcelona didn't match a contract, he had no obligation to stay with a club that didn't meet the contractual demands and they mutually parted. Enrique didn't renew his contract (or wasn't offered one) and was free to play for whomever he desired. I don't see that as betrayal but rather professional loyalty. Both players gave their all to the clubs when playing. Yeah, it's not 'romantic' but at the end of the day I suppose Figo and Enrique felt more at home and respected at the other 'classic' club. Even then, I think Figo turned out to be more of an Interista than anything else!

[SirBalon]

3 hours ago, Spike said:

Maybe I'm different to you (or I don't know the whole story) but I don't feel like Figo or Enrique betrayed either club. Figo's release clause was met and Barcelona didn't match a contract, he had no obligation to stay with a club that didn't meet the contractual demands and they mutually parted. Enrique didn't renew his contract (or wasn't offered one) and was free to play for whomever he desired. I don't see that as betrayal but rather professional loyalty. Both players gave their all to the clubs when playing. Yeah, it's not 'romantic' but at the end of the day I suppose Figo and Enrique felt more at home and respected at the other 'classic' club. Even then, I think Figo turned out to be more of an Interista than anything else!

Figo is a case apart!

Those that defend him will say that the whole issue revolved around him moving from Barça to bitter rivals Real Madrid (remember that in Europe nothing compares to that rivalry...  Ever!  Not even Celtic v Rangers or Partizan v Red Star). The problem is that players have moved between both clubs for decades and notable moves we have the Dane Michael Laudrup who moved from Barcelona to Real and the German Bernd Schuster who done the same thing (Schuster actually played for Barça, Real and Atlético Madrid).  Both were insignia players for Barcelona and both are still adored by the Barça fans.

What happened with Figo then?

Forget how the deal was done and the mundane details thrown by one party on the "matching of wages".  Barcelona matched whatever wages Florentino Pérez was willing to offer him because Barcelona didn't know how much had been offered and they told him that whatever it was, they'd match it.  The ONLY issue surrounding the Luis Figo move from FC Barcelona to Real Madrid CF were the weeks previous to his move and the campaign Florentino Pérez used to win the presidential elections.

These were the moves three weeks previous step by step (where it matters to the fan);

• Florentino Pérez states he has a marquee signing if he wins the elections.
• The greatest investigative sports press in the world which resides in Spain (always) ascertained that it was Figo and announced it.
• Florentino Pérez refuses to deny that this was the case.
• Figo denies it and in the last match of the season kisses the crest (yes I know we've all seen this before).
• Figo then offers an interview to SPORT and TV3 (TV3 is the regional Catalan tv station) where he says he is the Barcelona captain and that he would never move to Real Madrid which appeases the Barça fans and believe it's all paper speculation.
• Florentino Pérez wins the elections to become President of Real Madrid and presents Luis Figo as the first of the "Galacticos"

 

Luis Enrique's move from Real Madrid to Barcelona caused a storm for these reasons which are different but certain actions caused the storm later on;

• Luis Enrique refuses to sign an extension to his contract.
• The Madrid based press state that he is plotting a move to rivals FC Barcelona.
• He is quizzed on holiday and he refuses to answer by smiling when asked if it's true (this is his rather underhand character which he maintains today and despises the press).
• He then goes for free to Barça and states that he's arrived at the best club in the world and that his career was being washed away in his past club which was only a stepping stone to get to his dream move.  (remember that both clubs hold themselves as something special and those aren't the words you should choose)
• In his first appearance for Barça he give the hand on the inside of his elbow to the Bernabéu crowd  and practically tells them to fuck off.
• He then subsequently talks bad about Real Madrid and his experiences at the club whenever asked.

Luis Enrique's actions aren't enjoyed even by the Barça fans (the more moderate ones) and at most is treated as a curious situation because he was the first to cause such a storm in that manner of bad mouthing publicly.

Luis Figo on the other hand is treated as an authentic traitor and he's come out with various reasons as to why that move happened blaming the Barcelona board. Even if it's true that the Barça board messed up (which believe me, Barça fans are willing to believe).  Nothing justifies his public statements beforehand rubbishing the rumour and stating that he was Barcelona through and through and was their captain.

Remember...  Players as important and as big as him for the Barcelona fans had gone to Real Madrid and nothing like was seen in his return to the Camp Nou as a Real Madrid player was ever witnessed and probably never will again because clubs protect themselves now with these things using clauses and even players won't do that move, or at least NEVER in that fashion.

This has been a basic explanation of the situation revolving both players and there's obviously more to it and much more detail.  There's also the emotion of fans at play here which are the ones that matter and the actions and sentiments we are disputing here on a level of whether they're justified in feeling.

Both sets of fans are justified to have felt like they continue to feel when either name is mentioned in my view.  I won't dispute or ever pretend to do so with any of the two sets.  I understand the issue and the sentiments they both have for either club depending what colours you support.

There is no room for mediation or looking for equilibrium in terms of social behaviour.  Clubs are seen as important as family over there and something like that is like...  Well imagine!  Imagine what it's like if a family member betrays you with lies and deceit.

Edited May 5, 2017 by SirBalon

[Spike]

20 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Figo is a case apart!

Those that defend him will say that the whole issue revolved around him moving from Barça to bitter rivals Real Madrid (remember that in Europe nothing compares to that rivalry...  Ever!  Not even Celtic v Rangers or Partizan v Red Star). The problem is that players have moved between both clubs for decades and notable moves we have the Dane Michael Laudrup who moved from Barcelona to Real and the German Bernd Schuster who done the same thing (Schuster actually played for Barça, Real and Atlético Madrid).  Both were insignia players for Barcelona and both are still adored by the Barça fans.

What happened with Figo then?

Forget how the deal was done and the mundane details thrown by one party on the "matching of wages".  Barcelona matched whatever wages Florentino Pérez was willing to offer him because Barcelona didn't know how much had been offered and they told him that whatever it was, they'd match it.  The ONLY issue surrounding the Luis Figo move from FC Barcelona to Real Madrid CF were the weeks previous to his move and the campaign Florentino Pérez used to win the presidential elections.

These were the moves three weeks previous step by step (where it matters to the fan);

• Florentino Pérez states he has a marquee signing if he wins the elections.
• The greatest investigative sports press in the world which resides in Spain (always) ascertained that it was Figo and announced it.
• Florentino Pérez refuses to deny that this was the case.
• Figo denies it and in the last match of the season kisses the crest (yes I know we've all seen this before).
• Figo then offers an interview to SPORT and TV3 (TV3 is the regional Catalan tv station) where he says he is the Barcelona captain and that he would never move to Real Madrid which appeases the Barça fans and believe it's all paper speculation.
• Florentino Pérez wins the elections to become President of Real Madrid and presents Luis Figo as the first of the "Galacticos"

 

Luis Enrique's move from Real Madrid to Barcelona caused a storm for these reasons which are different but certain actions caused the storm later on;

• Luis Enrique refuses to sign an extension to his contract.
• The Madrid based press state that he is plotting a move to rivals FC Barcelona.
• He is quizzed on holiday and he refuses to answer by smiling when asked if it's true (this is his rather underhand character which he maintains today and despises the press).
• He then goes for free to Barça and states that he's arrived at the best club in the world and that his career was being washed away in his past club which was only a stepping stone to get to his dream move.  (remember that both clubs hold themselves as something special and those aren't the words you should choose)
• In his first appearance for Barça he give the hand on the inside of his elbow to the Bernabéu crowd  and practically tells them to fuck off.
• He then subsequently talks bad about Real Madrid and his experiences at the club whenever asked.

Luis Enrique's actions aren't enjoyed even by the Barça fans (the more moderate ones) and at most is treated as a curious situation because he was the first to cause such a storm in that manner of bad mouthing publicly.

Luis Figo on the other hand is treated as an authentic traitor and he's come out with various reasons as to why that move happened blaming the Barcelona board. Even if it's true that the Barça board messed up (which believe me, Barça fans are willing to believe).  Nothing justifies his public statements beforehand rubbishing the rumour and stating that he was Barcelona through and through and was their captain.

Remember...  Players as important and as big as him for the Barcelona fans had gone to Real Madrid and nothing like was seen in his return to the Camp Nou as a Real Madrid player was ever witnessed and probably never will again because clubs protect themselves now with these things using clauses and even players won't do that move, or at least NEVER in that fashion.

This has been a basic explanation of the situation revolving both players and there's obviously more to it and much more detail.  There's also the emotion of fans at play here which are the ones that matter and the actions and sentiments we are disputing here on a level of whether they're justified in feeling.

Both sets of fans are justified to have felt like they continue to feel when either name is mentioned in my view.  I won't dispute or ever pretend to do so with any of the two sets.  I understand the issue and the sentiments they both have for either club depending what colours you support.

There is no room for mediation or looking for equilibrium in terms of social behaviour.  Clubs are seen as important as family over there and something like that is like...  Well imagine!  Imagine what it's like if a family member betrays you with lies and deceit.

Interesting. I was unaware of the controversies surrounding both of the transactions. I thought they were just 'simple' (they really never are) switches to the otherside (think Zlatan being sold to Inter, fierce rivals but nothing thought of it, though a lot of people have played for the 'trio of Italia'). I can now far better understand the hatred of Figo by many cules, I was unaware he fervently denied transferring and openly lied about switching clubs. Figo indirectly insulted the fans of Barcelona by hiding his intentions whereas Enrique just full insulted the club and the fans of RM. While I admire his honesty and brutality (probably something I may have in common with him, haha) it didn't need to be said even if he did feel that way. 

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

Interesting. I was unaware of the controversies surrounding both of the transactions. I thought they were just 'simple' (they really never are) switches to the otherside (think Zlatan being sold to Inter, fierce rivals but nothing thought of it, though a lot of people have played for the 'trio of Italia'). I can now far better understand the hatred of Figo by many cules, I was unaware he fervently denied transferring and openly lied about switching clubs. Figo indirectly insulted the fans of Barcelona by hiding his intentions whereas Enrique just full insulted the club and the fans of RM. While I admire his honesty and brutality (probably something I may have in common with him, haha) it didn't need to be said even if he did feel that way. 

Many people admire Luis Enrique's "sincerity" and many others just ask, why?

I'm in the middle with Luis Enrique although if I ever do sway a bit on that bird wire because of a gust of wind, I tend to nearly fall into the "Why" camp.  Keeping your mouth shut isn't lying and refusing to answer the questions the press put before you because in Spain they're more interested in sensationalism and controversy is the more intelligent action and that isn't lying...  It's keeping things to yourself because you're in the media spotlight and in my personal view as a player that earns a good living, part of the job description is to be a diplomat or if you can't reach that far within your character, then keep hush.  There is a part of him I admire though and that is sticking it to the press which is his biggest enemy as he doesn't trust them at all.

But Luis Enrique on the whole is a curious character and I've heard plenty of anecdotes on him like this one by an ex-member of the training staff a couple of years back; "With Luis Enrique you have to walk around like you're stepping on feathers and don't want to ruin them.  The most likely thing you'll get from Luis Enrique when wishing him a good morning within the halls of the Camp Nou is a "What's so good about this particular morning then!"...  He's a strange fellow that seems to think in terms of targets for each individual day."

I can believe that anecdote considering his love and passion for Triathlons which he is an avid participant and one of the best around.  A sport consisting of individualism and various mind-blowing exhausting targets.

All of that stuff he's ever said about Real Madrid is a step too far for me even if it's true.  For example, Gerard Piqué gets accused in a similar vein but for me it's different.  Piqué pulls the cords publicly on what he feels are general injustices.  Take for example that other public issue Luis Enrique has with the present Espanyol coach, Quique Sánchez-Flores...  Back in their Real Madrid playing days they both had some sort of dressing room argument which has persisted to this day.  The first game this season between the two clubs at the Camp Nou had the situation where traditionally the two coaches from both clubs take a picture together by the Barcelona based press...  Luis Enrique said he'd do it and then didn't turn up leaving Sánchez-Flores looking like a right plum on the pitch at the stadium...  When Luis Enrique was quizzed on it he said he got into a movie on his tablet in the office and forgot the time.   On the return game which was last week the press didn't even bother to ask them to both do the picture and when they asked Quique Sánchez-Flores what he thought about Luis Enrique and his refusal to shake his hand or do the picture he said this curious thing;  "I'm reading a book right now you know!"  To which a journalist asked; "Which book?"...  The Espanyol coach answered; "It's a book by Caroline Dream called 'The Clown In You", it's good you know"  Not a good way to go mending the situation with Luis Enrique is it.

 

As for Luis Figo...  My opinions of him as a player have never changed.  He is one of the greatest I have seen...  But he is a liar and a traitor!

Edited May 5, 2017 by SirBalon

[Spike]

I must say that Quique got the last laugh with that book remark.