Cicero Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, Blue said: I'm not backtracking. I said give it a few years because those are the first few examples of what the MLS is thriving towards, but the profile is still higher. Bayern would not have paid 25M for Davies if that's the case. Do you think they'd pay 25M for a player in the Colombian league, even though it is better? Maybe they will be flops in Europe - but I think your argument is a bit weak because they already did well in their respective leagues prior to joining the MLS. Almiron was key in Lanus' title win in Argentina so it's not just the MLS he's been doing well in. If the Argentine league is also not good enough, then we wouldn't have any good South American players in Europe. Savarino, Rossi and Lopez absolutely tore it apart in their leagues, so they made the jump up. All clubs across Europe have been poaching players in South America. You think they will just stop and poach from the MLS instead? Another flaw in your statement. How many players from the Brazilian league or Argentine league have been signed and now play in Europe in the past few years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 minute ago, ScoRoss said: So they can't be within their own country of birth, and then have to be sold to another country? What other criteria do you want to add? Must be left-handed? The Championship has produced better players than the MLS, why would clubs not want to look at better players? Because of their nationality? Because they are playing in their home country? Seems a dumb way to scout. I'm as much to do with Football Italia, as you are with Bayern Munich's transfers. (Although I would be far better at my fictional role than you would at yours) So is Gareth Bale going to start in the Bosnian league then? If we're going by that logic, the Colombian league has been better than the Championship in the last 10 years. James Rodriguez plays for Bayern, Juan Cuadrado plays for Juventus. It isn't though, because they go to a feeder league or feeder club first. We are talking about exports! SALES! Not who produces who. The Championship isn't a selling league to anybody but English clubs, just like the Bundesliga 2 is a selling league to top German clubs. It's not criteria, it's how things work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Cicero said: All clubs across Europe have been poaching players in South America. You think they will just stop and poach from the MLS instead? Another flaw in your statement. How many players from the Brazilian league or Argentine league have been signed and now play in Europe in the past few years? Obviously the MLS isn't as big a destination for European teams than Argentina or Brazil, but it is getting there due to the amount of international footballers you can find at a young age who signed for an American team at a young age. And quite a lot actually. Aguero, Oscar, Gabriel Jesus, Higuain, Marcelo a few examples off the top of my head didn't even go to a feeder league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Blue said: So is Gareth Bale going to start in the Bosnian league then? If we're going by that logic, the Colombian league has been better than the Championship in the last 10 years. James Rodriguez plays for Bayern, Juan Cuadrado plays for Juventus. It isn't though, because they go to a feeder league or feeder club first. We are talking about exports! SALES! Not who produces who. The Championship isn't a selling league to anybody but English clubs, just like the Bundesliga 2 is a selling league to top German clubs. It's not criteria, it's how things work. But you would choose not to scout the EFL and focus on MLS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 minute ago, ScoRoss said: But you would choose not to scout the EFL and focus on MLS? Most big clubs don't give a fuck about the Championship. Only English clubs because that's where they'll find cheaper English footballers that can play well. Bundesliga 2 is the same to top German teams. English clubs don't give a fuck about that division but it is important to teams like Bayern, Schalke, Dortmund etc. The MLS has players who have already been capped by their country and have built profiles. This is more attractive for top clubs. Especially when it comes to building a brand in said country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, Blue said: Most big clubs don't give a fuck about the Championship. Only English clubs because that's where they'll find cheaper English footballers that can play well. Bundesliga 2 is the same to top German teams. English clubs don't give a fuck about that division but it is important to teams like Bayern, Schalke, Dortmund etc. The MLS has players who have already been capped by their country and have built profiles. This is more attractive for top clubs. Especially when it comes to building a brand in said country. So that's a yes... What a weird strategy to ignore a league that has produced so many talented players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, ScoRoss said: So that's a yes... What a weird strategy to ignore a league that has produced so many talented players. It seems you still don't understand... Every league in South America produces talented players and a majority are ignored by big teams. This is about SALES, not production FFS It's ok though, when you're new to football it's hard to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, Blue said: Most big clubs don't give a fuck about the Championship. Why are you still using this to support your argument when we've concluded you can't prove it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, Cicero said: Why are you still using this to support your argument when we've concluded you can't prove it? I can prove it. How many players have gone straight from the championship to Bayern, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus, etc, etc. The Championship isn't a stepping stone league. Only for English clubs who search for local talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Blue said: It seems you still don't understand... Every league in South America produces talented players and a majority are ignored by big teams. This is about SALES, not production FFS It's ok though, when you're new to football it's hard to understand. I love when you resort to personal insults. The true sign that you can't find anything logical to say. Never mind believing I run a news website Better get back to your American football research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, ScoRoss said: I love when you resort to personal insults. The true sign that you can't find anything logical to say. Never mind believing I run a news website Better get back to your American football research. I have been telling you how things are - but you keep arguing something completely different to what I said. Makes me think you are a WUM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Blue said: I have been telling you how things are - but you keep arguing something completely different to what I said. Makes me think you are a WUM. I'll have a blog post up about it on the Twitter feed in no time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, ScoRoss said: I'll have a blog post up about it on the Twitter feed in no time... Go for it. Make sure you use this picture when it comes to describing how you did in this argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I'm actually enjoying this debate with @Cicero because he's raising decent points and actually understood what I've gotten at. You on the otherhand keep waffling on about player production when that's not what I said to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 20 minutes ago, Blue said: I'm actually enjoying this debate with @Cicero because he's raising decent points and actually understood what I've gotten at. You on the otherhand keep waffling on about player production when that's not what I said to begin with. You've based this entire argument on one player going to Bayern. And presented the rest of your opinions as facts. Some argument you put up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, ScoRoss said: You've based this entire argument on one player going to Bayern. And presented the rest of your opinions as facts. Some argument you put up You still don't get it do you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, Blue said: I can prove it. How many players have gone straight from the championship to Bayern, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus, etc, etc. The Championship isn't a stepping stone league. Only for English clubs who search for local talent. So the argument has shifted from 'most clubs' to only Europe's best? Why would Barca want a player from the championship? Aside that, if even the likes of Dortmund and Bayern showed interest in Sancho and Odoi, why wouldn't other clubs follow suit in the abundance of young English talent emerging? Most of which play in the Championship? The Championship is a stepping stone. We send all of our academy products there in the hope they grow well enough to sell them at a higher profit or join the first team. Harry Kane played in the Championship for experience. Madisson, Brooks, and Chilwell are pissing this league after spells in the Championship. You seem to be very fixated on this given Bayern signed a player from the MLS who we all know won't ever be a nailed on starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Just now, Cicero said: So the argument has shifted from 'most clubs' to only Europe's best? Why would Barca want a player from the championship? Aside that, if even the likes of Dortmund and Bayern showed interest in Sancho and Odoi, why wouldn't other clubs follow suit in the abundance of young English talent emerging? Most of which play in the Championship? The Championship is a stepping stone. We send all of our academy products there in the hope they grow well enough to sell them at a higher profit or join the first team. Harry Kane played in the Championship for experience. Madisson, Brooks, and Chilwell are pissing this league after spells in the Championship. You seem to be very fixated on this given Bayern signed a player from the MLS who we all know won't ever be a nailed on starter. Well to begin with, you're wrong that he won't ever be a nailed on starter, as we don't know that. If he was sent straight to the reserve team then maybe, but he's on the bench every game and is being put on near the end of games to build up experience. I think due to his fee he is a bit comparable to Vinicius Junior to be honest. Like I said, I don't count loans because those clubs aren't "exporting" those players, they are importing and then returning them. If you do, then that's you. I don't. And I think the argument to begin with - was Europe's biggest clubs. Sancho and Odoi didn't play in the Championship. before leaving (the former at least) so they aren't really viable examples. For me the best example is Madison, but again he's English. He had to start somewhere, so for me it's only a stepping stone for Premier League players trying to get experience. Otherwise, international players don't choose the Championship, or rather the clubs don't choose them. The MLS actually don't even produce that many Americans. A common complaint I've heard is that players like Pulisic were just passed by completely by the league and got signed by a bigger club, while the clubs in the MLS keep signing players from abroad. Josh Sargent is another good example. Again, name me a player that went to a big club internationally straight from the Championship and not an English team that just wants to expand on local young homegrown footballers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted February 7, 2019 Author Administrator Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Cicero said: Yes but those international footballers are playing at the MLS standard (where their competition are former college players), thus being hard to analyse their quality given they are big fish in a small pond. Look at Madisson, Brooks, and even Chilwell. Purchased from the Championship and are setting the premier league alight their first season(s). Already all three are being monitored by big clubs. Just to point out - Chilwell is a youth product and only went on loan to Championship clubs but I agree with the later point you made about other players plying their trade and learning the ropes, so to speak, for their own benefit in lower-leagues. 9 minutes ago, Blue said: Again, name me a player that went to a big club internationally straight from the Championship and not an English team that just wants to expand on local young homegrown footballers. Oliver Burke went to RB Leipzig a couple of seasons ago from Nottingham Forest. Think it was about £15-20m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Stan said: Oliver Burke went to RB Leipzig a couple of seasons ago from Nottingham Forest. Think it was about £15-20m. That's the argument I was looking for. To me it doesn't change that the MLS is more attractive for top clubs but this is a good example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicero Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, Blue said: Well to begin with, you're wrong that he won't ever be a nailed on starter, as we don't know that. Much like you don't know if foreign clubs have ever inquired or signed players in the championship. 8 minutes ago, Blue said: Like I said, I don't count loans because those clubs aren't "exporting" those players, they are importing and then returning them. If you do, then that's you. I don't. But the point is that it's a stepping stone? They send those players to the Championship to develop? 9 minutes ago, Blue said: And I think the argument to begin with - was Europe's biggest clubs. Sancho and Odoi didn't play in the Championship. before leaving (the former at least) so they aren't really viable examples. You said any clubs outside of England then shifted the goal posts to only Europe's best. Sancho and Odoi are just two examples of the vast gulf in quality of young English talent. Most of which are already with big named clubs so more than likely they will be loaned out to the Championship. Because it's, you know, a stepping stone... 12 minutes ago, Blue said: For me the best example is Madison, but again he's English. He had to start somewhere, so for me it's only a stepping stone for Premier League players trying to get experience. Otherwise, international players don't choose the Championship, or rather the clubs don't choose them. The MLS actually don't even produce that many Americans. A common complaint I've heard is that players like Pulisic were just passed by completely by the league and got signed by a bigger club, while the clubs in the MLS keep signing players from abroad. Josh Sargent is another good example. Chilwell is arguably the second best left back in the league and Brooks just took the piss out of us last week They were championship players 1-2 years ago. You might want to change your argument a couple pages back from all clubs to only clubs outside of England prefer transfers in the MLS rather than the Championship. And even then that still can't be proven. The MLS has a poor model when it comes to homegrown talent and their 'pay to play' approach. Aside the gulf in differences in development programs compared to the states and in Europe, that is why Americans choose to develop abroad. 14 minutes ago, Blue said: Again, name me a player that went to a big club internationally straight from the Championship and not an English team that just wants to expand on local young homegrown footballers. Name me one player that came from any second division in any country that went straight to a top elite club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Cicero said: Name me one player that came from any second division in any country that went straight to a top elite club? Well to begin with, this kind of helps my argument a bit. The MLS being a top flight (more like the only flight) helps it's profile in making it a hotspot for outside of Europe. Most second tiers are feeder leagues for local players as I've said and leagues like the MLS, Eredivisie, Liga MX, Belgian Pro-League is where all the international footballers make the step up. Thus making it overall more attractive. To answer your question though - I've not got many off the top of my head and cba to research but if I remember correctly Pirlo started at Brescia and Goretzka at Bochum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, Cicero said: The MLS has a poor model when it comes to homegrown talent and their 'pay to play' approach. Aside the gulf in differences in development programs compared to the states and in Europe, that is why Americans choose to develop abroad. This is a good point - but for international footballers they give them game time and don't have them in reserve leagues most of the time - it's a reason why I'm happy Marcos Lopez chose San Jose. He'll get game time and consolidate himself. Savarino got in the first team quickly as did Barco, even if the latter hasn't impressed yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 16 hours ago, Blue said: I said I wasn't that passionate to even check I am basing it off the fact that in my lifetime, I can't remember one key player that was exported from the Championship. I even remember more from league 1 (Dele Alli). Loans to me don't count, where as I do remember some from the MLS. So it's not that I don't know, it's that I used my memory and not fact. And I don't know where you got the idea that I was an expert, I just think you are talking rubbish because the situation isn't even comparable. You don't need to be an expert to know that talent comes with the player and not the league. Dele Alli counts, but James Madison doesn't? Both young and English, what can possibly be the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eco Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 4 hours ago, Blue said: Again, name me a player that went to a big club internationally straight from the Championship and not an English team that just wants to expand on local young homegrown footballers. Josh Maja just went from Sunderland (L1), to Bordeaux (Ligue 1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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