3.Liga & Below - 2020/21

[Rucksackfranzose]

6 hours ago, SchalkeUK said:

The Professional game is hard - a reserve league would get young players to compete against other young players and the level of work etc would not give them the experience they need to prepare for the higher form of football.  Playing against other clubs as reserve sides in a proper league is a better  form of education.  Taking Grammar School pupils to the local Comprehensive for lessons would never be contemplated - not because of any form of elitism, but because it's a different world and it wouldn't work.  We dare not put too many young players into the first BL teams at once, but experience against senior Pro's who are in the last years for their careers is far better than forming a 'kids' league.

You are aware that helping the big clubs to educate their younger players isn't the main reason of their existence for smaller clubs?

 

[Rucksackfranzose]

I apologize for the harsh sound in the post above. Still DFB have over 24000 member clubs, 36 of them play in the highest 2 tiers. To suggest second teams should play in the pyramid because it suits the younger players of said 36 clubs best, is its tail wagging the dog not the other way round.

[Eco]

What's stopping the league from just having U-23 teams like they do in England, and have a smaller pyramid scheme? It would give the players more playing time, and those players that aren't good enough to start for the A-Team but are higher than 23 years of age, can get filtered down and play for smaller clubs, thus potentially increasing the field of play all around. 

Something about Bayern II winning 3. Liga just makes me frustrated. Rregionnal is filled with these reserves teams and it would be nice if they all played together in a U-23 league. 

[nudge]

5 minutes ago, Eco said:

What's stopping the league from just having U-23 teams like they do in England, and have a smaller pyramid scheme? It would give the players more playing time, and those players that aren't good enough to start for the A-Team but are higher than 23 years of age, can get filtered down and play for smaller clubs, thus potentially increasing the field of play all around. 

Something about Bayern II winning 3. Liga just makes me frustrated. Rregionnal is filled with these reserves teams and it would be nice if they all played together in a U-23 league. 

Well it would still have the same financial sustainability issues @Rucksackfranzose mentioned in his original post, wouldn't it? No interest, no sponsors, no TV broadcast, yet you still have organisational and travel costs. Also, if you just make the pyramid scheme smaller (let's say, only clubs in 1. and 2. Bundesliga), what happens to the U23 teams of those clubs that play in lower leagues and thus aren't allowed to participate? Should they just dismantle their U23 teams altogether, as they have no competitive matches to play?

[Rucksackfranzose]

17 minutes ago, Eco said:

What's stopping the league from just having U-23 teams like they do in England, and have a smaller pyramid scheme? It would give the players more playing time, and those players that aren't good enough to start for the A-Team but are higher than 23 years of age, can get filtered down and play for smaller clubs, thus potentially increasing the field of play all around. 

Something about Bayern II winning 3. Liga just makes me frustrated. Rregionnal is filled with these reserves teams and it would be nice if they all played together in a U-23 league. 

In RL Südwest Hoffenheim II played Freiburg II with an attendance of, I'm not lying, 31 people, although these city/town are pretty close geographically. Now imagine Sandhausen and Kiel, two cities that are much further away. Do you really think a nationwide league with such attendances is worth creating? Really?

[Eco]

3 minutes ago, nudge said:

Well it would still have the same financial sustainability issues @Rucksackfranzose mentioned in his original post, wouldn't it? No interest, no sponsors, no TV broadcast, yet you still have organisational and travel costs. Also, if you just make the pyramid scheme smaller (let's say, only clubs in 1. and 2. Bundesliga), what happens to the U23 teams of those clubs that play in lower leagues and thus aren't allowed to participate? Should they just dismantle their U23 teams altogether, as they have no competitive matches to play?

Having a U-23 team is something that teams could determine whether or not they want to have. one. It shouldn't be based on which league the Pro team is in, more about if the team wants to pay for a U-23 squad. 

There is likely no better solution then the one we have now, I'm just trying to think of better ways than what we have now. 

1 minute ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

In RL Südwest Hoffenheim II played Freiburg II with an attendance of, I'm not lying, 31 people, although these city/town are pretty close geographically. Now imagine Sandhausen and Kiel, two cities that are much further away.Do you really think a lnationwide league with such attendances is worth creating? Really?

Well, maybe I'm shocked to say this is where the States benefit from our league system. 

Atlanta United II plays in the USl against teams like New York Cosmos, Tampa Bay Rowdies, and other classic clubs. 

 

[Rucksackfranzose]

8 minutes ago, Eco said:

Having a U-23 team is something that teams could determine whether or not they want to have. one. It shouldn't be based on which league the Pro team is in, more about if the team wants to pay for a U-23 squad. 

There is likely no better solution then the one we have now, I'm just trying to think of better ways than what we have now. 

Well, maybe I'm shocked to say this is where the States benefit from our league system. 

Atlanta United II plays in the USl against teams like New York Cosmos, Tampa Bay Rowdies, and other classic clubs. 

 

Well exactly that's the point, they play New York Cosmos not Inter Miami II, who they would face if there was a proper reserve round. So you actually appreciate Atlanta United II playing classic clubs, but want to deny Freiburg II, who faced Offenbach , Ulm, Homburg and us -4 former Buli clubs- the same favor, doubledealing, one could say.  And the club with the most reserve teams are Viktoria Berlin, don't fancy telling them, they can't play for the club they want to play for, because only a few selected clubs are allowed of reserve teams.

[nudge]

1 minute ago, Eco said:

Having a U-23 team is something that teams could determine whether or not they want to have. one. It shouldn't be based on which league the Pro team is in, more about if the team wants to pay for a U-23 squad. 

There is likely no better solution then the one we have now, I'm just trying to think of better ways than what we have now. 

So basically what you are suggesting is a U23 league for richer clubs that can afford paying increased costs of having their U23 team play competitive matches, while the clubs that are not as well off would be pretty much forced to dismantle theirs because they can't afford participating in this new U23 league because of the costs. Nah thanks. I'm not a fan of reserve teams playing in 3. Liga/Regionalliga either, but this just widens the gap between richer and poorer clubs which is already massive enough.

[Eco]

31 minutes ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

Well exactly that's the point, they play New York Cosmos not Inter Miami II, who they would face if there was a proper reserve round. So you actually appreciate Atlanta United II playing classic clubs, but want to deny Freiburg II, who faced Offenbach , Ulm, Homburg and us -4 former Buli clubs- the same favor, doubledealing, one could say.  And the club with the most reserve teams are Viktoria Berlin, don't fancy telling them, they can't play for the club they want to play for, because only a few selected clubs are allowed of reserve teams.

It's not that at all, as I'm not suggesting anyone give up their II squads, I was simply asking you all what you think the pros and cons are of adopting a system that England appears to have. I'm not an expert in the English game, so their system could absolutely be set up only for those rich clubs, but frankly I just don't know. 

I have never suggested only the rich clubs have reserve teams, but was only throwing out a couple of ideas to get a better perspective. 

28 minutes ago, nudge said:

So basically what you are suggesting is a U23 league for richer clubs that can afford paying increased costs of having their U23 team play competitive matches, while the clubs that are not as well off would be pretty much forced to dismantle theirs because they can't afford participating in this new U23 league because of the costs. Nah thanks. I'm not a fan of reserve teams playing in 3. Liga/Regionalliga either, but this just widens the gap between richer and poorer clubs which is already massive enough.

Again, I'm very confused where this idea came about that I'm doing anything more than just starting a discussion about the likelihood of this being adopted, and being successful, and not just for the rich clubs, but for all clubs. 

If I watch 3. Liga, I want to see teams that are not reserve teams, and same for Regionalliga. There are so many classic clubs in Germany, that you have clubs like Ulm, Aachen, RW Essen, that find themselves in the Regionalliga, doing worse than the reserve sides of the rich teams. Thus I was only thinking about ways to potentially avoid it. 

But I understand that finances are the biggest concern, and that if you have Freiburg II vs Augsburg II that the only people in attendance are likely some family members and that's it. 

[SchalkeUK]

1 hour ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

I apologize for the harsh sound in the post above. Still DFB have over 24000 member clubs, 36 of them play in the highest 2 tiers. To suggest second teams should play in the pyramid because it suits the younger players of said 36 clubs best, is its tail wagging the dog not the other way round.

No not really, the idea that young players or even young professionals should be given as many chances to raise their level of competence is paramount to the future of the game.  In a league where the level is maintained by keeping them together would not do that - putting them against old pros or others who are earning a living in lower leagues would challenge them to continue to improve rather than just get a little better than their peers.  Those teams in BL3 3 and lower are as important to the game as the BL itself and I had no intention of belittling that - simply to give the new generation something to aim for other than simply their Club first team.

[nudge]

2 minutes ago, Eco said:

It's not that at all, as I'm not suggesting anyone give up their II squads, I was simply asking you all what you think the pros and cons are of adopting a system that England appears to have. I'm not an expert in the English game, so their system could absolutely be set up only for those rich clubs, but frankly I just don't know. 

I have never suggested only the rich clubs have reserve teams, but was only throwing out a couple of ideas to get a better perspective. 

Again, I'm very confused where this idea came about that I'm doing anything more than just starting a discussion about the likelihood of this being adopted, and being successful, and not just for the rich clubs, but for all clubs. 

If I watch 3. Liga, I want to see teams that are not reserve teams, and same for Regionalliga. There are so many classic clubs in Germany, that you have clubs like Ulm, Aachen, RW Essen, that find themselves in the Regionalliga, doing worse than the reserve sides of the rich teams. Thus I was only thinking about ways to potentially avoid it. 

But I understand that finances are the biggest concern, and that if you have Freiburg II vs Augsburg II that the only people in attendance are likely some family members and that's it. 

It's all good, I think we get it that you are just discussing things and not trying to start an elitist U23 league for rich clubs in Germany  It's just that I don't see any way for your suggested idea to work, as even if that's not your intention, a setup like that would definitely favour richer clubs while excluding the poorer ones. By creating a nationwide league for U23 teams only, you're basically asking the clubs to pay more for the "privilege" of playing other U23 teams while travelling larger distances (since the league is nationwide and not regionalised) and not getting much if any income from ticket sales, TV rights or sponsoring - so essentially, you're increasing the costs of participating while decreasing the quality and attractiveness of competitive matches. Those clubs that can't afford that (and you have to consider that most clubs in 3. Liga and below are already struggling financially and have very limited resources) would be punished in this scenario, as they'd be forced to either cough up the money they don't really have or deny their youngsters the opportunity of playing competitive matches altogether. It's a no-go for me, as youth and amateur football should be kept as affordable as possible... 

[Eco]

14 minutes ago, nudge said:

It's all good, I think we get it that you are just discussing things and not trying to start an elitist U23 league for rich clubs in Germany  It's just that I don't see any way for your suggested idea to work, as even if that's not your intention, a setup like that would definitely favour richer clubs while excluding the poorer ones. 

My thought process was that by taking the Reserve teams out, you would think have extra spaces for regional teams. So an Almennia Aachen have a better chance of making it into 3. Liga, or another one of clubs at that level, which would only produce more revenue for those clubs. 

I'm worried that with the current set up, we will see the day where no one can compete with Bayern Munch II, Dortmund II, RB Leipzig II in 3.Liga, so the winner of the actual league will be the 4th best team in the table, and those 4 reserve teams will be taking spots that could have been filled by more non-reserve teams. 

14 minutes ago, nudge said:

 as youth and amateur football should be kept as affordable as possible... 

I completely agree with this, but I still think they way things are now, the bigger clubs are benefiting the most, as these reserve sides are taking the spots in these leagues of pro clubs that are struggling for promotion because they are fighting against a beast that they just can't financially compete with (that being Bundesliga Reserve sides). 

[Rucksackfranzose]

22 minutes ago, Eco said:

My thought process was that by taking the Reserve teams out, you would think have extra spaces for regional teams. So an Almennia Aachen have a better chance of making it into 3. Liga, or another one of clubs at that level, which would only produce more revenue for those clubs. 

I'm worried that with the current set up, we will see the day where no one can compete with Bayern Munch II, Dortmund II, RB Leipzig II in 3.Liga, so the winner of the actual league will be the 4th best team in the table, and those 4 reserve teams will be taking spots that could have been filled by more non-reserve teams. 

I completely agree with this, but I still think they way things are now, the bigger clubs are benefiting the most, as these reserve sides are taking the spots in these leagues of pro clubs that are struggling for promotion because they are fighting against a beast that they just can't financially compete with (that being Bundesliga Reserve sides). 

That fear of a 3.Liga consisisting of more or less only reserve teams is as old as 3.Liga. The reality is every II team that once was in the 3.Liga and in the first season that's bee Bayern II, Werder II , Stuttgart II, Dortmund II, and Mainz II all have been relegated, including Bayern II, who were newly promoted last season and are tipped to fight against relegation this season by experts. History tells all in all another story than the picture you paint here, so far. It's also not the second teams fault that more historic clubs like RW Essen, Alemannia Aachen, Borussia Neunkirchen and Wattenscheid 09 lived beyond their means for decades and now aren't capable of competing at a standard they were used to anymore, either.

EDit: Actually it were 6 second teams in the first season, forgot about Leverkusen II, who have been dispatched meanwhile because they were relegated from RL West.

[nudge]

31 minutes ago, Eco said:

My thought process was that by taking the Reserve teams out, you would think have extra spaces for regional teams. So an Almennia Aachen have a better chance of making it into 3. Liga, or another one of clubs at that level, which would only produce more revenue for those clubs. 

I'm worried that with the current set up, we will see the day where no one can compete with Bayern Munch II, Dortmund II, RB Leipzig II in 3.Liga, so the winner of the actual league will be the 4th best team in the table, and those 4 reserve teams will be taking spots that could have been filled by more non-reserve teams. 

I completely agree with this, but I still think they way things are now, the bigger clubs are benefiting the most, as these reserve sides are taking the spots in these leagues of pro clubs that are struggling for promotion because they are fighting against a beast that they just can't financially compete with (that being Bundesliga Reserve sides). 

To be honest, as it stands now, 3. Liga is a graveyard for participating clubs; each season spent there means a huge financial loss. The costs are too high, the revenues are too low - so I'm not sure the likes of Alemannia Aachen would even want that.

I think in general  it's time to think of some structural changes in the overall pyramid. I'd personally be leaning towards the idea of DFL taking over the 3. Liga (making TV money distribution fairer to decrease the gap between the clubs), with U23 teams then not allowed to participate above 4th division.

[Eco]

What happened to Regionallga Bayern? It seems like it's not taking place this year..? I can't seem to find the table or fixtures using my typical English language sources. 

[nudge]

6 minutes ago, Eco said:

What happened to Regionallga Bayern? It seems like it's not taking place this year..? I can't seem to find the table or fixtures using my typical English language sources. 

It's a right mess. The 19/20 season was suspended due to corona and the participating clubs voted to resume it and continue in autumn, so as a result, Bavarian football association cancelled the 20/21 season, and once the competition resumes, it will be officially known as a 19/21 season  Supposed to restart in October.

[Eco]

Lubeck go down after Unterhaching score. 

1-0 still in the first half, but Lubeck don't appear to be able to hold onto the ball much. 

[Rucksackfranzose]

First match in the Luswigspark since over 3 years and I didn't get a ticket. Starting to take Covid personally. Ah well at least SR broadcast the match live on TV.

[Eco]

12 hours ago, Rucksackfranzose said:

First match in the Luswigspark since over 3 years and I didn't get a ticket. Starting to take Covid personally. Ah well at least SR broadcast the match live on TV.

Good win for you guys today against Hansa. 

[nudge]

Another victim of Matchday 2.

 

[Eco]

I have never heard of so many managers getting fired after Matchday 2...so crazy to me. 

[Eco]

Saarbrucken up 1-0 early 

[Rucksackfranzose]

13 points after 5 matches, 11 goals scored with only 3 conceded, and top of the league although we have 1 game in hand, if the 3.Liga season would continue for my FCS as it begun, that would be delightful. Spitzenreiter, Spitzenreiter, hey, hey!

[Faithcore]

Very proud of our team today. Could not train the whole week, missed the last 2 matches due to quarantine and still we somehow managed to win in Unterhaching with some players in the starting lineup and squad who did not have a single training before and could not even travel with the team 2 days ago.

Our goalkeeper had a worldclass performance tonight and everyone was running their heart out.

[nudge]

1 minute ago, Faithcore said:

Very proud of our team today. Could not train the whole week, missed the last 2 matches due to quarantine and still we somehow managed to win in Unterhaching with some players in the starting lineup and squad who did not have a single training before and could not even travel with the team 2 days ago.

Our goalkeeper had a worldclass performance tonight and everyone was running their heart out.

Imagine if you've bet 5 Euro on MSV winning, that would have been quite something!