Saturday 25th March - World Cup Qualifiers (European)

[Panna King]

Just now, oliveandblue said:

Is Cilessen really that bad that he can't take the #1 shirt?  I've always felt he was acceptable enough.

He doesnt play for his club so he isnt going to start. Mostly Zoet is good but with This back 4 he isnt confident at all, Indi is awful and de ligt was never going to work. Van Dijk and de Vrij are so much better but both injured.

[SirBalon]

2 minutes ago, Romesh said:

Martinez won't take this squad of so much talent anywhere.

Nobody has managed it yet because they're a bunch of individuals with big egos that think they've already made it.  It's not the first time this has occurred with golden generations that fail no matter who the coach is.

[SirBalon]

3 minutes ago, oliveandblue said:

Is Cilessen really that bad that he can't take the #1 shirt?  I've always felt he was acceptable enough.

He plays in the Copa del Rey for Barça and to be honest he's been extremely solid without any mistakes.  The problem is that he has Ter Stegen there and he knew this when he said yes to the offer.

[oliveandblue]

6 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

Nobody has managed it yet because they're a bunch of individuals with big egos that think they've already made it.  It's not the first time this has occurred with golden generations that fail no matter who the coach is.

At the club level, most of them really have arrived.  I wonder if they should pass the armband to someone else in that side.  I never thought of Vertonghen as that type of guy. 

I still think Belgium tops the group.  Greece won't play this hard every match.

[Stan]

I just find it staggering that Martinez has waited til 83rd minute to replace a defender with an attacking player despite having had to chase the game since Greece's goal shortly after half-time or even after the red card. I'm sure Everton fans had the same criticisms of Martinez when it came to making subs. Either making them too late or making the wrong ones.

[Stan]

Belgium finally score!! Eventually Lukaku comes to life and scores with a really good goal. In the area, chests and volleys on the turn past the keeper. 1-1. 

[SirBalon]

15 minutes ago, oliveandblue said:

At the club level, most of them really have arrived.  I wonder if they should pass the armband to someone else in that side.  I never thought of Vertonghen as that type of guy. 

I still think Belgium tops the group.  Greece won't play this hard every match.

This is one of the things that can occur when you rip young players from their habitat early and they move to big foreign clubs at a very young age. They don't get to learn team ethics and they think they've already made it. It's a mentality of "I'm good enough, he's good enough and it should work". Nothing works like that espcially a collective environment. 

[Stan]

Another red card for Greece right at the death.

Lukaku must have had something said to him as he's lost his head. 

[oliveandblue]

...France is quietly putting together a very comprehensive qualification campaign.  It's a weak group, but they handled a bad start to win by 2. 

[Panna King]

1 hour ago, SirBalon said:

I agree mate...  It's evident that the fundamentals have been lost and that there isn't a belief in the essence of what has always been Dutch football since the revolution in the late 60s.  It was always evolving but always kept its essence.  Something back along the footballing lines is going seriously wrong and in my opinion a large part (I stress, not all) is to do with not holding onto your youth at club level.

Multi culture has ruined Dutch football that is the honest truth. 

[SirBalon]

1 minute ago, VanPanna said:

Multi culture has ruined Dutch football that is the honest truth. 

I don't see that mate... One of the great Ajax eras was very "multicultural" and that Dutch national side with those players was great too... They underachieved or maybe they were unlucky too. 

[Panna King]

1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

I don't see that mate... One of the great Ajax eras was very "multicultural" and that Dutch national side with those players was great too... They underachieved or maybe they were unlucky too. 

There is a big problem, Turks and Moroccans are the footballers now from the youth and they choose money rather then a career.

[oliveandblue]

4 minutes ago, VanPanna said:

Multi culture has ruined Dutch football that is the honest truth. 

Germany and France have both dealt with it just fine.  It's not that, but rather something else.  Not totally sure what it is, though.  The Eredivisie isn't what it used to be - perhaps that's a huge issue.

[Panna King]

Just now, oliveandblue said:

Germany and France have both dealt with it just fine.  It's not that, but rather something else.  Not totally sure what it is, though.  The Eredivisie isn't what it used to be - perhaps that's a huge issue.

They are bigger countries with a bigger pool of players. They dont have problems when players have to ask Ronaldo on what country they should play for, like what El Ghazi done. 

[SirBalon]

3 minutes ago, VanPanna said:

There is a big problem, Turks and Moroccans are the footballers now from the youth and they choose money rather then a career.

 

1 minute ago, oliveandblue said:

Germany and France have both dealt with it just fine.  It's not that, but rather something else.  Not totally sure what it is, though.  The Eredivisie isn't what it used to be - perhaps that's a huge issue.

It's deep rooted in club football where the problems lie and it could happen all over with the destruction of international football as has been known historically.  Look at those eastern European clubs that used to compete for the European Cup (Champions League) or even the French sides.  Infact we're talking Dutch here and who can say we will see a Dutch club seriously compete to win that tournament even in the next 10 years?

As I said in my first post to Van Panna in relevance to this.  For me the biggest reason is young players being taken out of their environment...  Their original clubs and fundamentally their country's league.  That is how the philosophy is drummed in and how it becomes successful.  When the national clubs succeed, it creates a reasonable mind set or confidence to carry it over to the national side.  We must eliminate the part where over valuing or overrating players is in question which even if they play in their home league and don't move abroad at an early age, they obviously won't compete at the highest stage.

[Panna King]

Blind has to go anyway and a foreign coach needs to come in. We need to be educated again on a different style as this isnt working at all. 

[SirBalon]

Just now, VanPanna said:

Blind has to go anyway and a foreign coach needs to come in. We need to be educated again on a different style as this isnt working at all. 

That would be the biggest error EVER!

I'm not saying Blind is blameless or crap (which is what you seem to be saying)...  Maybe he does have to go, but a Dutch coach HAS to be the only option.  Belief in Dutch football ethics is the only way for Dutch football to came back to the fore.

The "small country" excuse isn't a just cause for a reasonable explanation mate.  We've had this argument before in the other forum and I think the Scottish guy WeirdWorld (I think I'm right in saying it was him) came out with that excuse for Scotland and I came out with Holland's success in the past, Uruguay which is one of the most underpopulated footballing nations in the world and others.  For me it's what I said in my previous posts and obviously there will be other issues too, I don't discount that.

What do you think Cruyff would've said about all of this?  He certainly wouldn't have gone down the "multiculturalism" route or the low population pool within the nation.

[Panna King]

3 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

 

It's deep rooted in club football where the problems lie and it could happen all over with the destruction of international football as has been known historically.  Look at those eastern European clubs that used to compete for the European Cup (Champions League) or even the French sides.  Infact we're talking Dutch here and who can say we will see a Dutch club seriously compete to win that tournament even in the next 10 years?

As I said in my first post to Van Panna in relevance to this.  For me the biggest reason is young players being taken out of their environment...  Their original clubs and fundamentally their country's league.  That is how the philosophy is drummed in and how it becomes successful.  When the national clubs succeed, it creates a reasonable mind set or confidence to carry it over to the national side.  We must eliminate the part where over valuing or overrating players is in question which even if they play in their home league and don't move abroad at an early age, they obviously won't compete at the highest stage.

The players need to be educated a football intelligence but alot are moving at the age of 15 to a big club and never to be seen again. The problem is the players that are doing this is mostly African and Turkish back ground players as they are the majority of the youth players in the last several years, it is a culture thing. Ajax saw this happening several years ago and Edgar Davids was appointed as a representative to stop the young kids from doing this.   Johan Cruyff was accused for being racist for doing this as it was his idea to have a black person who would be able to relate with them.  Things have got better in the terms that now there are more people playing football again and the resurgence of street football which made the Dutch famous for. 

[Panna King]

14 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

That would be the biggest error EVER!

I'm not saying Blind is blameless or crap (which is what you seem to be saying)...  Maybe he does have to go, but a Dutch coach HAS to be the only option.  Belief in Dutch football ethics is the only way for Dutch football to came back to the fore.

The "small country" excuse isn't a just cause for a reasonable explanation mate.  We've had this argument before in the other forum and I think the Scottish guy WeirdWorld (I think I'm right in saying it was him) came out with that excuse for Scotland and I came out with Holland's success in the past, Uruguay which is one of the most underpopulated footballing nations in the world and others.  For me it's what I said in my previous posts and obviously there will be other issues too, I don't discount that.

What do you think Cruyff would've said about all of this?  He certainly wouldn't have gone down the "multiculturalism" route or the low population pool within the nation.

Johan Cruyff actually blamed multi culture alot, as i said above he was involved in a very public row with role of Edgar Davids at Ajax. 

 

During a television interview on Sunday, Davids alluded to racist treatment during a meeting of the board and, although Davids was not specific, another board member – Steven ten Have – pointed the finger directly at Cruyff. Ten Have alleged that Cruyff said to Davids: "You are only on the supervisory board because you are black."

Cruyff has not denied making such a statement, with the 64-year-old former Holland international instead seeking to put his remark in context. "Ajax is a multicultural club and we have found that many talented immigrant players quit when they reach puberty," he said in his weekly Dutch newspaper column.

 

"So we wanted to tackle this problem with someone from the same background, who had come through it. And that was Edgar Davids. During one of our fights I pointed that out to him. But it had nothing to do with his skin colour."

Davids has appeared keen to defuse the situation. He explained: "I never said, and I want to emphasise that, that Johan Cruyff was a racist, despite this unfortunate remark on his part. I would also like to make clear I have deep respect for the soccer player Johan Cruyff."

[SirBalon]

11 minutes ago, VanPanna said:

Johan Cruyff actually blamed multi culture alot, as i said above he was involved in a very public row with role of Edgar Davids at Ajax. 

 

During a television interview on Sunday, Davids alluded to racist treatment during a meeting of the board and, although Davids was not specific, another board member – Steven ten Have – pointed the finger directly at Cruyff. Ten Have alleged that Cruyff said to Davids: "You are only on the supervisory board because you are black."

Cruyff has not denied making such a statement, with the 64-year-old former Holland international instead seeking to put his remark in context. "Ajax is a multicultural club and we have found that many talented immigrant players quit when they reach puberty," he said in his weekly Dutch newspaper column.

 

"So we wanted to tackle this problem with someone from the same background, who had come through it. And that was Edgar Davids. During one of our fights I pointed that out to him. But it had nothing to do with his skin colour."

Davids has appeared keen to defuse the situation. He explained: "I never said, and I want to emphasise that, that Johan Cruyff was a racist, despite this unfortunate remark on his part. I would also like to make clear I have deep respect for the soccer player Johan Cruyff."

I remember that Cruyff situation because as you can appreciate, everything "Cruyff" to the last detail was always on the front line in Spain.  No way was he a racist and alluding to that is shameful from anyone.  We've had issues of a similar calibre in English football with outspoken ex-black footballers like Sol Campbell and John Barnes.  I'm not saying that the fundamental fight they're battling out isn't just, but the finger pointing is mostly erroneous and causes a lot of friction that doesn't help anyone.

Johan Cruyff was never a racist!  He was passionately in love with the sport and few people have done more to promote the sport in poverty stricken areas of the world and many of those are areas where there are a lot of black children or of other cultures that aren't white.

Cruyff was a hard man to deal with and anyone that has followed his career will know this.  He had a belief and for him as long as the fundamentals of that belief were adhered to then evolution within it was something inevitable and which he always said was necessary.

[Panna King]

31 minutes ago, SirBalon said:

I remember that Cruyff situation because as you can appreciate, everything "Cruyff" to the last detail was always on the front line in Spain.  No way was he a racist and alluding to that is shameful from anyone.  We've had issues of a similar calibre in English football with outspoken ex-black footballers like Sol Campbell and John Barnes.  I'm not saying that the fundamental fight they're battling out isn't just, but the finger pointing is mostly erroneous and causes a lot of friction that doesn't help anyone.

Johan Cruyff was never a racist!  He was passionately in love with the sport and few people have done more to promote the sport in poverty stricken areas of the world and many of those are areas where there are a lot of black children or of other cultures that aren't white.

Cruyff was a hard man to deal with and anyone that has followed his career will know this.  He had a belief and for him as long as the fundamentals of that belief were adhered to then evolution within it was something inevitable and which he always said was necessary.

Yea he isnt of course but he was just telling the truth like i mentioned it is a huge problem here due to the high number of youth players with mixed back grounds. Holland in general has a muli culture problem in general but it is effecting football alot.  It was a year yesterday that Johan left us btw.

[SirBalon]

24 minutes ago, VanPanna said:

It was a year yesterday that Johan left us

Yeah I know mate... FC Barcelona announced today that they will be putting a statue outside the Camp Nou of Johan Cruyff and the Mini Estadi will now be named the Estadi Johan Cruyff.

The council of the city of Barcelona will also be naming a road after the great man.

[Dalmore]

Even with 9 plasyers we could have grabbed 3 points last night in Belgium! No worries though, even with a draw we still have the momentum we need to go through.

[Panna King]

Danny Blind the Dutch coach is meeting with the KNVB this afternoon the Dutch FA to talk about his future, it looks like they will sack him.  Louis Van Gaal could make a return or Frank de Boer. 

 

https://www.ad.nl/nederlands-voetbal/knvb-vanmiddag-al-om-tafel-met-bondscoach-blind~a10264b8/

[SirBalon]

30 minutes ago, VanPanna said:

Danny Blind the Dutch coach is meeting with the KNVB this afternoon the Dutch FA to talk about his future, it looks like they will sack him.  Louis Van Gaal could make a return or Frank de Boer. 

 

https://www.ad.nl/nederlands-voetbal/knvb-vanmiddag-al-om-tafel-met-bondscoach-blind~a10264b8/

If it's between Van Gaal and De Boer, then it's got to be Frank.  Going bawards in time isn't good and De Boer should be given a chance.