Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted August 3, 2019 Subscriber Posted August 3, 2019 Hope that's not true as there's no way Ocon beats Hamilton even semi-regularly.
Eco Posted August 3, 2019 Posted August 3, 2019 14 hours ago, Tommy said: Why would you want Nico gone though? I like Nico, but he's been one of the greatest under performers in recent memory. I like Ocon, a lot, though. And with the French connection, it makes sense. Something has to change with Renault. We have fallen behind McLaren, and close to Racing Point. Too many issues with this supposedly "increase in investment" we were supposed to get.
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted August 3, 2019 Subscriber Posted August 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Eco said: I like Nico, but he's been one of the greatest under performers in recent memory. I like Ocon, a lot, though. And with the French connection, it makes sense. Something has to change with Renault. We have fallen behind McLaren, and close to Racing Point. Too many issues with this supposedly "increase in investment" we were supposed to get. Theres no point blaming the drivers though. Ocon has achieved nothing that Hulkenberg couldn't have done in the same position. He is just younger and more hyped. Renault have one of the best driver pairings on the grid. Like when Honda had Button and Barrichello in 2007-2008 with an awful car, Button was a winner of one race in nine years and Barrichello was a beta/number 2 driver. Give them a good car in 2009 and they brought home both championships. Ricciardo and Hulkenberg are like that now.
Eco Posted August 3, 2019 Posted August 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, RandoEFC said: Theres no point blaming the drivers though. Ocon has achieved nothing that Hulkenberg couldn't have done in the same position. He is just younger and more hyped. Renault have one of the best driver pairings on the grid. Like when Honda had Button and Barrichello in 2007-2008 with an awful car, Button was a winner of one race in nine years and Barrichello was a beta/number 2 driver. Give them a good car in 2009 and they brought home both championships. Ricciardo and Hulkenberg are like that now. You may be right, but as I have mentioned, something HAS to change, so it's only certain you look at all the pieces. Riccarido was a winner at RB, and Nico has yet to grace the podium. So that's where I'm basing this off of. Cyril is a nut, and probably great for Netflix and his hatred for Christian and RB, but the chassis and engine still seem far below other teams so something needs to change, just trying to figure out where that comes...
Moderator Tommy Posted August 3, 2019 Author Moderator Posted August 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Eco said: I like Nico, but he's been one of the greatest under performers in recent memory. That's because he always drove for "small" teams. It used to be because of his height, and the weight disadvantage teams feared because of it. He never had a shot at a top team, even though he would have deserved it.
nudge Posted August 3, 2019 Posted August 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, Eco said: You may be right, but as I have mentioned, something HAS to change, so it's only certain you look at all the pieces. Riccarido was a winner at RB, and Nico has yet to grace the podium. So that's where I'm basing this off of. Not a fair comparison. It's a bit harder to win races and get on the podium when you're driving a Williams, Sauber, Force India and Renault compared to driving a top 3 car at Red Bull... Nico is definitely a good driver. Maybe if Renault sorted out their engine reliability issues and managed to build a chassis that is not shite and has same issues every year, they wouldn't have to blame their drivers for poor results.
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted August 3, 2019 Subscriber Posted August 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, Eco said: You may be right, but as I have mentioned, something HAS to change, so it's only certain you look at all the pieces. Riccarido was a winner at RB, and Nico has yet to grace the podium. So that's where I'm basing this off of. Cyril is a nut, and probably great for Netflix and his hatred for Christian and RB, but the chassis and engine still seem far below other teams so something needs to change, just trying to figure out where that comes... I bet Cyril is actually pretty normal and measured, but the Netflix documentary exaggerated his anti-Red Bull characteristics. The last 12 months emphasise that the last thing that needs to change at Renault is the drivers. They replaced Sainz, a solid driver but unproven in the upper echelons of the sport, with a proven winner in Ricciardo, yet they're nowhere near the podium, they've lost significant ground to McLaren in the battle to be the next team after the "big three" and they aren't even consistently the 5th best car because Alfa Romeo and Haas often out qualify Renault, and we saw Racing Point and Toro Rosso score top four finishes last weekend just by being there at the end of the race while Ricciardo was chilling in the paddock following an engine failure. I can guarantee, if you put Ricciardo and Hulkenberg in the Mercedes cars, then Ricciardo would win the Drivers Championship, Hulkenberg would win a few races and they'd win the Constructors too. Put Hamilton and Bottas in the Renault and they'd still be battling for 5th in the Constuctors without a podium all year. The drivers are not the problem at Renault, they need to build a faster and more reliable car. They appeared to be heading in the right direction last year but 2019 has been a step back.
Eco Posted August 4, 2019 Posted August 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, RandoEFC said: I bet Cyril is actually pretty normal and measured, but the Netflix documentary exaggerated his anti-Red Bull characteristics. The last 12 months emphasise that the last thing that needs to change at Renault is the drivers. They replaced Sainz, a solid driver but unproven in the upper echelons of the sport, with a proven winner in Ricciardo, yet they're nowhere near the podium, they've lost significant ground to McLaren in the battle to be the next team after the "big three" and they aren't even consistently the 5th best car because Alfa Romeo and Haas often out qualify Renault, and we saw Racing Point and Toro Rosso score top four finishes last weekend just by being there at the end of the race while Ricciardo was chilling in the paddock following an engine failure. I can guarantee, if you put Ricciardo and Hulkenberg in the Mercedes cars, then Ricciardo would win the Drivers Championship, Hulkenberg would win a few races and they'd win the Constructors too. Put Hamilton and Bottas in the Renault and they'd still be battling for 5th in the Constuctors without a podium all year. The drivers are not the problem at Renault, they need to build a faster and more reliable car. They appeared to be heading in the right direction last year but 2019 has been a step back. No doubt - but I wonder who will pay for the failures of this year? There has already been one change, but will there be more?
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted August 4, 2019 Subscriber Posted August 4, 2019 Just now, Eco said: No doubt - but I wonder who will pay for the failures of this year? There has already been one change, but will there be more? Last time Renault fell from grace they packed in their F1 team. Back to back championships in 2005 and 2006 was the culmination of a five year project after they bought the Benetton team in 2002. They slipped back badly in 2007 and 2008, then tried to ignore the 2008 car early to develop their 2009 car ready for the big regulation change, but they built a dog instead and the company decided to pull out of the sport soon after, as a full works team at least. I think, if there isn't significant improvement in their fortunes, we could see a repeat. They probably have their eyes on the next regulation overhaul in 2021 as their best chance of leaping to the front. If they're still sat at 5th in the team standings mid-2021, theres a decision to be made for them again. In the shorter term, it looks like the engine manufacturing side needs a big overhaul to improve reliability and whoever is designing the chassis needs some new ideas.
Moderator Tommy Posted August 4, 2019 Author Moderator Posted August 4, 2019 Rando always says thing things I want to say, but I lack the capability of.
nudge Posted August 4, 2019 Posted August 4, 2019 9 minutes ago, RandoEFC said: I bet Cyril is actually pretty normal and measured, but the Netflix documentary exaggerated his anti-Red Bull characteristics. He did a shit job at Caterham and was at least partially responsible for their demise, then was appointed by Renault due to family connections and proceeded to consolidate the power which ended in him forcing Vasseur out. The man's power hungry, has an inflated sense of self and, given his regular comments to the media, is not even capable of self-criticism.
Moderator Tommy Posted August 4, 2019 Author Moderator Posted August 4, 2019 I really don't think we know enough about what's going to behind the scenes to make such bold and presumptuous statements, IMO.
nudge Posted August 4, 2019 Posted August 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Tommy said: I really don't think we know enough about what's going to behind the scenes to make such bold and presumptuous statements, IMO. Fair enough; I should have said he comes across as power hungry and as someone who has an inflated sense of self - the rest of the post is either facts (he did do a shite job at Caterham; does have connections with Renault's higher ranks; did force Vasseur out) or well deduced character judgement (him not being capable of self criticism)
nudge Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 Hülkenberg criticises Renault and its car development. https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/23973?
Eco Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 Ceratinly Ricciardo's decision to leave RB wasn't the best for his career. This car needs upgrades quick, as it's so obvious that Renault is battling to not finish second to last.
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted August 5, 2019 Subscriber Posted August 5, 2019 19 minutes ago, Eco said: Ceratinly Ricciardo's decision to leave RB wasn't the best for his career. This car needs upgrades quick, as it's so obvious that Renault is battling to not finish second to last. Renault have their eyes on the big regulation change in 2021. A big overhaul of the rules is the middle team's best chance to move far up the order. This year's car is a write off in terms of even getting podiums, and it's wins and championships Daniel wants to compete for. Red Bull is Max's team now, and when they build a championship winning car again, Max will be the one they want to win the driver's title, so even with a better car it would be unlikely that Daniel had a great chance of becoming world champion at Red Bull. Being at Renault also gives him the opportunity to move to Ferrari or Mercedes more easily if the opportunity presents itself. Although Red Bull claim they put a clause in their offer to him last year to give him that option anyway. It is similar to Alonso in 2008. He left McLaren under a cloud and went to Renault who were, again, focusing on a big regulation change in 2009, but they delivered a rubbish car. It did allow him to be attainable for the Ferrari seat he wanted in 2010 though.
nudge Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 10 minutes ago, RandoEFC said: Renault have their eyes on the big regulation change in 2021. A big overhaul of the rules is the middle team's best chance to move far up the order. This year's car is a write off in terms of even getting podiums, and it's wins and championships Daniel wants to compete for. Fair enough but what makes you think they'll manage to build a good car for 2021? They've been struggling with fundamental aerodynamic issues + engine reliability for the last three years when new regulations weren't even in the works, have barely made any progress and are being beaten by their customer team again. Given the speed and direction of their developments (or lack thereof) they will do the same next year by the looks of it; to me it hints that a) they lack competence especially in the chassis department; b) the Renault management isn't willing to spend more money on F1. All that doesn't look promising for 2021 in my opinion.
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted August 5, 2019 Subscriber Posted August 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, nudge said: Fair enough but what makes you think they'll manage to build a good car for 2021? They've been struggling with fundamental aerodynamic issues + engine reliability for the last three years when new regulations weren't even in the works, have barely made any progress and are being beaten by their customer team again. Given the speed and direction of their developments (or lack thereof) they will do the same next year by the looks of it; to me it hints that a) they lack competence especially in the chassis department; b) the Renault management isn't willing to spend more money on F1. All that doesn't look promising for 2021 in my opinion. Perhaps, but the Brawn GP team didn't exactly have much money and had built two tragic cars in the years preceding their championship season. I don't foresee Renault winning races in 2021, I'm just saying to judge Daniel's decision in a few year's time. If he never wins another race then yeah he should have stayed at Red Bull, but if he manages to compete for a championship elsewhere it will prove to be the correct decision.
Eco Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 34 minutes ago, RandoEFC said: Renault have their eyes on the big regulation change in 2021. A big overhaul of the rules is the middle team's best chance to move far up the order. This year's car is a write off in terms of even getting podiums, and it's wins and championships Daniel wants to compete for. Red Bull is Max's team now, and when they build a championship winning car again, Max will be the one they want to win the driver's title, so even with a better car it would be unlikely that Daniel had a great chance of becoming world champion at Red Bull. Being at Renault also gives him the opportunity to move to Ferrari or Mercedes more easily if the opportunity presents itself. Although Red Bull claim they put a clause in their offer to him last year to give him that option anyway. It is similar to Alonso in 2008. He left McLaren under a cloud and went to Renault who were, again, focusing on a big regulation change in 2009, but they delivered a rubbish car. It did allow him to be attainable for the Ferrari seat he wanted in 2010 though. If he wants championships, going to Ferrari or Mercedes is the same as staying with RB. Each of those are set up with their #1 driver, and in Ferrari and RB's case, their #1 (or future #1) is a child so Riccarido has zero shot there if his goal is to be the top dog as one of the largest constructors. 2 minutes ago, nudge said: Fair enough but what makes you think they'll manage to build a good car for 2021? They've been struggling with fundamental aerodynamic issues + engine reliability for the last three years when new regulations weren't even in the works, have barely made any progress and are being beaten by their customer team again. Given the speed and direction of their developments (or lack thereof) they will do the same next year by the looks of it; to me it hints that a) they lack competence especially in the chassis department; b) the Renault management isn't willing to spend more money on F1. All that doesn't look promising for 2021 in my opinion. If what I've read on the Renault FB page, Renault has designed one of, if not the most, expensive and state-of-the-art wind tunnels for their aerodynamics. Now, does that mean results? Absolutely not, but if there are rule changes coming that will make it more even between the big 3 and the rest, then certainly that bodes will with Renault ONLY if they get their shit together. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeingmore changes, and from what I've read about being informed of Prost's appointment, I can only hope more of his input will bring positive change to the car.
nudge Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 8 minutes ago, RandoEFC said: Perhaps, but the Brawn GP team didn't exactly have much money and had built two tragic cars in the years preceding their championship season. I don't foresee Renault winning races in 2021, I'm just saying to judge Daniel's decision in a few year's time. If he never wins another race then yeah he should have stayed at Red Bull, but if he manages to compete for a championship elsewhere it will prove to be the correct decision. Brawn GP didn't exactly start from scratch with their championship winning car though; Honda invested a lot of money and time and hired a lot of new people to start developing the car for 2009 very early. After Brawn takeover they mostly continued with Honda's design concept which proved to be successful and that was the key to winning the championship. Interestingly enough, their in-season development was pretty poor and they barely got any wins in the second half of the season once other teams caught up with them. Agree about judging Ricciardo's decision though.
nudge Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 15 minutes ago, Eco said: If what I've read on the Renault FB page, Renault has designed one of, if not the most, expensive and state-of-the-art wind tunnels for their aerodynamics. Now, does that mean results? Absolutely not, but if there are rule changes coming that will make it more even between the big 3 and the rest, then certainly that bodes will with Renault ONLY if they get their shit together. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeingmore changes, and from what I've read about being informed of Prost's appointment, I can only hope more of his input will bring positive change to the car. That's cool but with wind tunnel and CFD use going to be even more restricted than it is now I don't think that's going to help them much - especially if they indeed lack competent people working with it. As for Prost - I liked him a lot as a driver; but he already failed once with owning and running a team so I'm not sure I'd put much hopes into him. One person can't change much anyway.
Eco Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 1 minute ago, nudge said: That's cool but with wind tunnel and CFD use going to be even more restricted than it is now I don't think that's going to help them much - especially if they indeed lack competent people working with it. As for Prost - I liked him a lot as a driver; but he already failed once with owning and running a team so I'm not sure I'd put much hopes into him. One person can't change much anyway.
Eco Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 People on the Renault FB page are losing their shit over Ocon changing his IG account, saying he is an F1 Driver. Rumors are flying that he is joining Renault next year.
nudge Posted August 23, 2019 Posted August 23, 2019 Just when I thought it was impossible to dislike Renault any more Haha. Yeah I think Ocon joining them next season is as good as done. Renault are set to bring an engine upgrade to Spa. Around 10-15 HP more apparently.
Moderator Tommy Posted August 23, 2019 Author Moderator Posted August 23, 2019 I hope Hülkenberg will destroy Ricciardo in the next races. Just for his own sake, nothing against Danny.
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